Honkai Impact 3rd - 2nd Herrscher - Ch. 52 - Final Gamble
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A confusion of “shall” and “will”. In the case of the first person, “will” expresses intent (which may be thwarted), while “shall” expresses simple futurity (which is inevitable). To switch from “shall” to “will” introduces doubt. I realize that all this is confusing; even most native speakers do not understand the rules, especially as they switch depending upon grammatic person.
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@Oeconomist
The first sentence, we shall meet again, is einstein stating it from a first person perspective, meaning that she wants to meet again
While the second part, we will meet again, is more objective third person point of view, creating a sense where the future is certain, so the tone has escalated
Going from stating something from a first person wish, to a third person fact, imply a strong believe in making something they "wish" into a "will", a reality
That is the thought when we translated that bit.
The first sentence, we shall meet again, is einstein stating it from a first person perspective, meaning that she wants to meet again
While the second part, we will meet again, is more objective third person point of view, creating a sense where the future is certain, so the tone has escalated
Going from stating something from a first person wish, to a third person fact, imply a strong believe in making something they "wish" into a "will", a reality
That is the thought when we translated that bit.
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@Hero_Cerebrum—
Grammatically, both sentences are first-person plural, and that determines the meanings of “shall” and of “will” here, regardless of whether the characters are imagined to be thinking about the situation objectively.
Grammatically, both sentences are first-person plural, and that determines the meanings of “shall” and of “will” here, regardless of whether the characters are imagined to be thinking about the situation objectively.
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@Oeconomist
I am unable to find source backing up your point that “shall” and “will” invert strength when being used in first person, could you provide one?
I am unable to find source backing up your point that “shall” and “will” invert strength when being used in first person, could you provide one?
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@Hero_Cerebrum—
Both The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary and The American Heritage Dictionary, with the latter being more accessible in its discussion.
Both The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary and The American Heritage Dictionary, with the latter being more accessible in its discussion.
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@Oeconomist
To quote "The American Heritage Dictionary" you suggested, on the definition of "shall": https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=shall
"The use of will in the first person and of shall in the second and third may express determination, promise, obligation, or permission, depending on the context."
the express of determination and promise is what is meant to be shown to a higher degree in the secondary, "will" here used in Einstein's speech, which falls in line with the usage of "will" in the first person case in this sentence.
"In the first person, shall is used to indicate simple futurity"
It seems "shall" in first person is only used to express "futurity", meaning it is merely a pointer to the event to be happening in the future, without any underlying tones the person saying it is determined it is to happen. So to me, reading this definition, in the first person context, "will" expresses a higher level of determination than "shall"
But anyhow,
"Such, at least, are the traditional rules. The English and some traditionalists about usage are probably the only people who follow these rules and then not with perfect consistency."
These subtle rules in the words are, lack of a better phrase, "complications of the past". "Shall" and "will" are largely interchangeable in the grammatical sense these days, and we were merely using these two terms in what we understand the situation to Einstein was. I don't think a deep dive into the original, traditional usage of the words is needed here for a manga translation.
To quote "The American Heritage Dictionary" you suggested, on the definition of "shall": https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=shall
"The use of will in the first person and of shall in the second and third may express determination, promise, obligation, or permission, depending on the context."
the express of determination and promise is what is meant to be shown to a higher degree in the secondary, "will" here used in Einstein's speech, which falls in line with the usage of "will" in the first person case in this sentence.
"In the first person, shall is used to indicate simple futurity"
It seems "shall" in first person is only used to express "futurity", meaning it is merely a pointer to the event to be happening in the future, without any underlying tones the person saying it is determined it is to happen. So to me, reading this definition, in the first person context, "will" expresses a higher level of determination than "shall"
But anyhow,
"Such, at least, are the traditional rules. The English and some traditionalists about usage are probably the only people who follow these rules and then not with perfect consistency."
These subtle rules in the words are, lack of a better phrase, "complications of the past". "Shall" and "will" are largely interchangeable in the grammatical sense these days, and we were merely using these two terms in what we understand the situation to Einstein was. I don't think a deep dive into the original, traditional usage of the words is needed here for a manga translation.
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@Hero_Cerebrum—
You're quoting only part of what the AHD has had to say about “shall” and “will”, and attempting to impose an unnatural reading on my simple use of the word “simple” (and misquoting me by omitting punctuation).
Worse, you're trying to have your distinction and eat it too. It's very true that many modern speakers and writers disregard the old rules of distinction between “shall” and “will”; but they do so leaving no distinction between their meanings, regardless of grammatic person. Your whole point in using “shall” in one sentence and “will” in another was attempted employment of “the original, traditional usage”. (It's simply not plausible that you decided to invent new rules of distinction and imagined that the reader would follow them without so much as a marginal note. ) And, had you meant for there to be no distinction, then you needed an adverb or an adverbial phrase to indicate certainty in the second sentence.
You're quoting only part of what the AHD has had to say about “shall” and “will”, and attempting to impose an unnatural reading on my simple use of the word “simple” (and misquoting me by omitting punctuation).
Worse, you're trying to have your distinction and eat it too. It's very true that many modern speakers and writers disregard the old rules of distinction between “shall” and “will”; but they do so leaving no distinction between their meanings, regardless of grammatic person. Your whole point in using “shall” in one sentence and “will” in another was attempted employment of “the original, traditional usage”. (It's simply not plausible that you decided to invent new rules of distinction and imagined that the reader would follow them without so much as a marginal note. ) And, had you meant for there to be no distinction, then you needed an adverb or an adverbial phrase to indicate certainty in the second sentence.
