Honzuki no Gekokujou ~Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen~ Dai 2-bu 「Hon no Tamenara Miko ni Naru!」 - Vol. 10 Ch. 50 - Blue Priest's…

[LiAuN]

About your spoiler:

Spoiler: points I think you are wrong about

The contract in part 2 with Shikza's family was signed by Viscount Dahldof, not Viscountess Dahldof. Sylvester likely didn't expect the man to not be able to control his wife. For the part 4 "contract" of bride-stealing ditter, it was supposed to be a contract (signed and everything, not valid just because it was on plant paper), but it was NOT a magic contract. If it had been a magic contract, it would have gone up in flames when signed, and everyone in the room would have instantly realized a contract had been signed.

Also, why would Ferdinand have needed a contract to make sure Myne would do as she had promised? She's just a commoner from a poor family, there is absolutely no way for her to avoid being forced to obey orders from nobles to respect what she promised. And besides, without the temple help, she's dead with the devouring. Not like she had much of a choice to respect her words or not.
Again, I repeat myself, nothing was signed between Myne or her parents, and the temple. There was no contract at all, just promises made during a verbal negotiation.

Spoiler: couterpoint to the contracts

that's my bad about the part 5 (not 4) the contract was indeed not a magic contract that much is true and was my mistake. But it would still be a contract and would thus violate the agreement made for plant paper contracts. When it comes to the part 2 incident it is directly stated that they had everyone in the family sign them (at least in the LN)

Why would Ferdinand need a contract? because that's the law of employment in the world. Laws that all follow from those in the lower city to those employed by nobles to even the nobles themselves.
The reason as to why he would do it is 3 fold.
1st Ferdinand is very much a pragmatic traditionalist he knows their culture and their laws and will follow them unless given the Aubs permission to change them. And even then he does so sparingly only when having enough groundwork done.
2nd It doesn't take a lot at all to construct a contract by noble standards. it's literally just 1 piece of wood and some ink. that's chump change to nobles especially Ferdinand
3rd and most important: it's not that Myne could oppose him it's the other nobility that could oppose him and that could be problematic. If he didn't have a contract but just a verbal agreement it would be very easy for some other noble to just take Myne make her sign a contract (not even a magical one) and then accuse Ferdinand or the temple of stealing their servants and that would be a problem for him and not for Myne. it's not Myne that's the problem that could oppose him without it. it's the other nobles who would have a vested interest in her mana capabilities. Yes it would be easy for Ferdinand or anyone else to control Myne it's a lot harder to control the other nobility without a contract though (especially for Ferdinand who at this point in time doesn't have a lot of power over other nobles). It's not for Myne that Ferdinand signs the contract it's for his own interest and to avoid the hassle of dealing with other nobles when he can easily just say here's proof.

Either way just because we aren't directly shown it doesn't mean that it didn't happen i mean we didn't get to see what Myne was eating every day but that doesn't mean that she wasn't eating. Same for a contracts we were already shown or told that they were a thing so why would they bring attention to a thing that's been shown to be a standard already?

 

[daedalron]

Spoiler: couterpoint to the contracts

that's my bad about the part 5 (not 4) the contract was indeed not a magic contract that much is true and was my mistake. But it would still be a contract and would thus violate the agreement made for plant paper contracts. When it comes to the part 2 incident it is directly stated that they had everyone in the family sign them (at least in the LN)

Spoiler: Quote from novel P2V3

"the archduke gave Shikza’s father two choices: He could either allow his family to be punished, or he could state an oath to never deal with you again and pay a hefty fee. If he swore the oath and paid the fee, his family would escape punishment, and Shikza would be recorded as having died an honorable death in battle." (chapter Punishment for the Knight's Order and my future)
So no, the whole family didn't sign a contract. It's not even clear if even Giebe Dahldof signed one, or only pledged a verbal oath to the Aub... But I have a vague memory that this part had been translated differently before, and that Quof changed it later, so maybe you're refering to the pre-change version?

3rd and most important: it's not that Myne could oppose him it's the other nobility that could oppose him and that could be problematic. If he didn't have a contract but just a verbal agreement it would be very easy for some other noble to just take Myne make her sign a contract (not even a magical one) and then accuse Ferdinand or the temple of stealing their servants and that would be a problem for him and not for Myne.

That's not really an option for an Ehrenfest noble, as Myne had been given blue robes by the Aub himself, and was under the protection of Ferdinand, the Aub's brother. Ferdinand made that clear during the Trombe Hunt, and that stopped at once medknights and even archknights to think about getting Myne for themselves.

Spoiler: P2V2 Quote

“I forgot to mention,” the High Priest continued, “but the apprentice is in my custody. I believe you understand the significance of that.” His words calmed their carnivorous stares at once.

But anyway, if you think the word of Ferdinand, an Archduke candidate that has his brother's ear, is not enough to stop Ehrenfest's nobles, then a contract signed by the Temple would have even less of a power to stop them, unless it was a magic contract. And we can know for certain Myne didn't sign one of those. Given how afraid she is of bloodshed, she would definitely have mentioned a contract signed with blood.

I guess a (non-magic) contract COULD have been signed, but we have no indication of it at all, no mention from Myne signing something, or seeing her parents sign something (remember that at the time Effa could not sign anything, she didn't know how to write even her name)

 

[LiAuN]

Spoiler: Quote from novel P2V3

"the archduke gave Shikza’s father two choices: He could either allow his family to be punished, or he could state an oath to never deal with you again and pay a hefty fee. If he swore the oath and paid the fee, his family would escape punishment, and Shikza would be recorded as having died an honorable death in battle." (chapter Punishment for the Knight's Order and my future)
So no, the whole family didn't sign a contract. It's not even clear if even Giebe Dahldof signed one, or only pledged a verbal oath to the Aub... But I have a vague memory that this part had been translated differently before, and that Quof changed it later, so maybe you're refering to the pre-change version?

Spoiler: farther reveal of the quote

yes those were the options given to him but the effects of them exactly are raveled in part 4 vol 9 where they are hunting down the bible. more details of what was done are revealed then and no it wasn't just the giebe that was sworn into it but the entire household easily shown by the lack of confusion of future giebe dahldolfs side to the "news" would have been revealed.

That's not really an option for an Ehrenfest noble, as Myne had been given blue robes by the Aub himself, and was under the protection of Ferdinand, the Aub's brother. Ferdinand made that clear during the Trombe Hunt, and that stopped at once medknights and even archknights to think about getting Myne for themselves.

Spoiler: P2V2 Quote

“I forgot to mention,” the High Priest continued, “but the apprentice is in my custody. I believe you understand the significance of that.” His words calmed their carnivorous stares at once.

yes but that was specifically because he could do that because the contract was in play. If there was no contract but only a verbal agreement there was nothing to prove that claim and the info could easily be told to the nobles who were in Bezewansts corner who wanted to put down Ferdinand farther and could easily share that info to Veronica.

But anyway, if you think the word of Ferdinand, an Archduke candidate that has his brother's ear, is not enough to stop Ehrenfest's nobles, then a contract signed by the Temple would have even less of a power to stop them, unless it was a magic contract.

Written words always hold more sway then verbal agreements only that was shown to also hold true in noble society.

Spoiler: written vs verbal

specifically it was shown in part 5 when Sylvester, Rozmyne, Hannelore and Sieglinde are discussing their marriages

and while yes Ferdinand is both an archduke candidate and has his brothers ear there is also one that has just as high of a position in those matters. Veronica. She also had Sylvester's ear and while she wasn't an archduke candidate she was the previous first wife and now the mother of the current Aub and doesn't have the slight in noble society of going to the temple and is at that point in time the dominant power in Ehrenfest when it comes to noble factions. She's the reason why Ferdinand can't move so openly in the nobility. So while yes Ferdinand could stop a regular Ehrenfest noble if they were acting alone he could just as easily be overpowered if Veronica put her back behind the noble who had that claim with just as little evidence that it would need she would def due to how large a blow it would deal for the little amount of effort (especially since she would jump on every opportunity to put Ferdinand even farther down). Also while yes Ferinands word is one thing that def couldn't be ignored written evidence even from priests is considerate actual evidence in nobles show of evidance

Spoiler: evidance

proven by the fact that accounts from a blue priest are suficient evidence for nobles to accept while those from gray priests aren't enough

I guess a (non-magic) contract COULD have been signed, but we have no indication of it at all, no mention from Myne signing something, or seeing her parents sign something (remember that at the time Effa could not sign anything, she didn't know how to write even her name), And we can know for certain Myne didn't sign one of those. Given how afraid she is of bloodshed, she would definitely have mentioned a contract signed with blood.

a) ppl can sign on other ppls behalf such as signing for a company instead of peronally so myne could have easily signes for her parents there's also the posibility that lower end ppl sign with their blood but those who know how to write don't.
b) the only contracts that we know that require blood are magic contracts others don't.
c) we are directly told that they will need to change Lutzs employment contract at the merchants guild when he comes to the temple with his parents meaning that there are employment contracts as a standard and a standard that again ferdinand wouldn't skimp out on because of the possible backlash that could befal him (not myne)
d) if blood was required for regular contracts Myne had stopped mentioning that when it came to part 2 she didn't mention it for any of her contracts that she would have had to sign with the gilberta company for coat hangers, all the different games, her investments for the Italian Restaurant etc. hell even in the story where she sold the design for the hairpins it's nowhere to be mentioned. there is a possibility that Blood can be used in regular contracts as a substitute for ppl that can't write but it's not a requirement that's the point. it's only a requirement for magic contracts beacuse that's based on your mana.

 

[kaezeribato]

The problem is that she is a moron

She is not even 10... She is an orphan and got no education. Obviously she is ignorant on everythings.
Even more so when the high priest spend year making her into his servant.

Everythings boild down to Myne not bothering to help her because she consider her as not trustworthy. Dalia would have "changed side" had Myne proved to her that she was safe att her side.

 

[daedalron]

d) if blood was required for regular contracts Myne had stopped mentioning that when it came to part 2 she didn't mention it for any of her contracts that she would have had to sign with the gilberta company for coat hangers, all the different games, her investments for the Italian Restaurant etc. hell even in the story where she sold the design for the hairpins it's nowhere to be mentioned. there is a possibility that Blood can be used in regular contracts as a substitute for ppl that can't write but it's not a requirement that's the point. it's only a requirement for magic contracts beacuse that's based on your mana.

I never said that blood was required for non-magic contract. That is certainly not the case.
The quote you made of me is putting together 2 sentences that are from different sections. Putting them together like you did changes completely what I was saying. The "And we can know for certain Myne didn't sign one of those. Given how afraid she is of bloodshed, she would definitely have mentioned a contract signed with blood." is refering the magic contract. The part you put before, and that was later in my own post, "I guess a (non-magic) contract COULD have been signed, but we have no indication of it at all, no mention from Myne signing something, or seeing her parents sign something (remember that at the time Effa could not sign anything, she didn't know how to write even her name)", is about non-magic contract, where I say there was no mention of any such contract signed. So maybe it was signed off-screen, or maybe none was signed. We just don't know.

I'm just not sure a contract would be made, when we know that even Sylvester making the Dahldof swear an oath was done WITHOUT a magic contract to compel them to respect their oath... So signing contracts to compel people of lower status is not done that systematically.

 

[LiAuN]

I never said that blood was required for non-magic contract. That is certainly not the case.
The quote you made of me is putting together 2 sentences that are from different sections. Putting them together like you did changes completely what I was saying. The "And we can know for certain Myne didn't sign one of those. Given how afraid she is of bloodshed, she would definitely have mentioned a contract signed with blood." is refering the magic contract. The part you put before, and that was later in my own post, "I guess a (non-magic) contract COULD have been signed, but we have no indication of it at all, no mention from Myne signing something, or seeing her parents sign something (remember that at the time Effa could not sign anything, she didn't know how to write even her name)", is about non-magic contract, where I say there was no mention of any such contract signed. So maybe it was signed off-screen, or maybe none was signed. We just don't know.

When in it's not defined you refer to the standards of the world that are stated to be the regular for the world which it is stated to be.

I'm just not sure a contract would be made, when we know that even Sylvester making the Dahldof swear an oath was done WITHOUT a magic contract to compel them to respect their oath... So signing contracts to compel people of lower status is not done that systematically.

Again Ferdinand would have no need for a contract to force myne to obey. he would need a contract to oppose Veronica though. Due to the fact that he knew that myne has the mana of at least an archnobel (since she could easily crush Bezewanst and even him to some degree) that knowledge could easily have been exploited by Veronica which again would only put Ferdinand who is below her in more of a problem where he would either have to give mynes mana up(something they desperately need) or defend a losing argument.
With evidence however he can easily defend against it

 

[daedalron]

Again Ferdinand would have no need for a contract to force myne to obey. he would need a contract to oppose Veronica though.

That would only work with a magic contract, a normal contract between a commoner and the temple wouldn't be able to stop Veronica. And Myne definitely would have mentioned being cut to sign in blood, as I said above, so I'm 99.99% certain no such magic contract was signed.

 

[LiAuN]

That would only work with a magic contract, a normal contract between a commoner and the temple wouldn't be able to stop Veronica. And Myne definitely would have mentioned being cut to sign in blood, as I said above, so I'm 99.99% certain no such magic contract was signed.

yes you are entirely correct. Absolutely no magic contract was signed that much is absolutely not up for discussion(because there is no reason to). but that does not mean that a normal contract would do nothing.
While yes a normal contract couldn't stop Veronica entirely it would make it a hell of a lot harder for her to do anything as opposed to if no contract was signed. If no contract was signed it's as simple as accusation (separation of Myne from the temple on the same day and into the custody of the knights order) and execution of the law on Ferdinand it would def be a minor problem and easily resolved but it would still be very harsh blow to his public noble image

Spoiler

just like it was for the children of the veronica faction with Wilfred despite them not actually doing anything illegal

. And something so simple and giving him a heavy blow in the eyes of the nobility is well worth the cost of 1 wooden tablet and some ink.

However if Myne did sign a contract it becomes much harder. Evidence from the temple (as an entity) is still considerate actual evidence when it comes to judgement

Spoiler: evidence

we have seen as much used in part 4 vol 7 where the blue priests evidence was used to accuse a noble.

so throwing the accusation that Ferdinand was stealing from her would be much harder. as she would either have to move a lot quicker to actually be effective (with much less info and a lot more risks)
1st she would have to prove the claim that she had a contract directly with an unbaptized commoner child (something unheard of even for commoners much less nobility) and it would have to be unbaptized since Myne was signed 4 days after her baptism. either way it would only damage her own reputation as well even if she did win so she would never do that.
2nd she would have to prove that all the work Myne was doing in the lower city wasn't being done(since Nobles workers live in the noble district) and there she would hit a snag. Myne already had magical contracts signed in the lower city and a magical contract is much harder to disprove. as you said a magical contract would def work.
3rd then there's the option of Ferdinand having an easy out by just having the knights order investigate Mynes memories yes you can't do that easily to a noble but it's childs play to use it on a commoner when 2 nobles are feuding and noone would complain about it. and then Veronica wouldn't be just up against Ferdinand but also the knights order

 

[daedalron]

yes you are entirely correct. Absolutely no magic contract was signed that much is absolutely not up for discussion(because there is no reason to). but that does not mean that a normal contract would do nothing.

As long as we agree on this, I think we'll have to end up agreeing on disagreeing about the normal contract.
I'm still convinced a normal contract wouldn't have offered any decent kind of protection to Myne against nobles who truly would have been going against her.
In my view, her protection came instead from being under Ferdinand, and most of all the fact that she had been granted blue robes by Sylvester himself. At the time, Myne's true value was unknown to nobles, so no one would have gone against Sylvester for rumours about her being a devouring kid with just decent mana (Bezewanst had no idea how strong her mana truly was, even Ferdinand underestimated her a lot).

It's only after the Trombe incident (which revealed a part of her mana-level) that nobles became interested in getting Myne for themselves, with the ambush in Garduhn first, and Bindewald later (spoiler for end of part 2)

But as I said, it's not a major point of the story, so let's just agree to disagree on that small point ^^

 

[LiAuN]

As long as we agree on this, I think we'll have to end up agreeing on disagreeing about the normal contract.
I'm still convinced a normal contract wouldn't have offered any decent kind of protection to Myne against nobles who truly would have been going against her.
In my view, her protection came instead from being under Ferdinand, and most of all the fact that she had been granted blue robes by Sylvester himself. At the time, Myne's true value was unknown to nobles, so no one would have gone against Sylvester for rumours about her being a devouring kid with just decent mana (Bezewanst had no idea how strong her mana truly was, even Ferdinand underestimated her a lot).

It's only after the Trombe incident (which revealed a part of her mana-level) that nobles became interested in getting Myne for themselves, with the ambush in Garduhn first, and Bindewald later (spoiler for end of part 2)

But as I said, it's not a major point of the story, so let's just agree to disagree on that small point ^^

sure. But I'm not saying that the contract was for Myne it wouldn't help her either as she is a commoner that's for sure. But there's more then 1 party that a forming of a contract (or failure to do so) can have an effect on. I'm saying that she would have been made to sign one because Ferdinand was looking out for his own reputation (at the time of the signature) and being accused of kidnapping the workers of a noble would be a serious problem for him which is much harder when he has proof otherwise. you are right that a single contract for Myne would be nothing to the nobility even to a laynoble much less Veronica. also as you mention noone was interested in her before the knights attack and all of that is true. But their target (mainly veronicas) wouldn't be rozemyne but Ferdinands reputation.

Spoiler: veronica

it's also in line with how Veronica operates bringing down everyone around the one who she prefers or would threaten her power and while ferdinand couldn't do that if she had an easy way to knock him down another peg she would take it. she wouldn't care at all about who Myne was at first (maybe she would care about exploiting her later) but she would care about easily knocking down ferdinand for even the slightest of missteps

that's why it was signed it had nothing to do with Myne and everything to do with Ferdinand being cautious of the dominant nobles being a threat to him. she's just a happy recipient of the even small benefits that said contract affords her by being in an area of noble presence.

 

[jessiej]

"you'll leave me eventually so why don't I betray you now"

Sigh

Looks more like she's going to get her flower picked by an old noble...