Horobi no Kuni no Seifukusha - Vol. 4 Ch. 19 - Kuran

[SunSun]

I'm so tired of this stereotypical cringe from manga and anime. The Catholic church is always evil or there's a religious order that is very obviously the Catholic church and its evil. It's lazy writing, that's all it is.

Side note: Anyone else see the whole "England is an island nation and we're an island nation therfore England is the good guy" thing or is it just me?

Japan and the UK had friendly relations up until the end of WW1 when Japan felt they got shafted out of promised territories.

The IJN even got battleship Kongou from the British.

 

[Strela]

Man, this irked me too much, I guess the memory of having to read dogshit fantasy novel that ripping off the witcher and european map still fresh in my mind.

 

[Aethelwulf001]

Japan and the UK had friendly relations up until the end of WW1 when Japan felt they got shafted out of promised territories.

The IJN even got battleship Kongou from the British.

That would check out.

 

[EldritchNeko]

With how he drew a line through the main island, not the westward one (Ireland-equivalent), I think they're supposed to be Scots.

You may well be correct. I based my comment on the "half the country is associated with the mainstream religion of the continent and the other half isn't" bit. I honestly don't know enough about European geography to assess beyond that. I'm more knowledgeable about politics and divisions (not in-depth or for everywhere, mind you, just some things).

 

[lowarctic]

You may well be correct. I based my comment on the "half the country is associated with the mainstream religion of the continent and the other half isn't" bit. I honestly don't know enough about European geography to assess beyond that. I'm more knowledgeable about politics and divisions (not in-depth or for everywhere, mind you, just some things).

also the closest real life parallel based on geography and time period wouldn’t be Protestants, but Lollards, who were a heretical pre-Protestant (~1300-1600) Catholic reform movement based in England

the closest parallel based on religious and ethnic tolerance would be the Muslim Spain (~700-1400), who expressly allowed Jews and Christians to practice for an additional tax unlike Catholic kingdoms

 

[Sp12er]

I know that not everybody can't be J.R.R.Tolkien but just copy paste every single detail of the real world is just lazy and uninspired.

She literally said their version of Jesus and Catholic came out 2000 years ago.

Personally, for me having a simple copy of earth is actually a unique setup than most, as it simply imply that the mc have way more geographical knowledge than most people there, heck, most medieval maps are quite inaccurate.
You'll see soon why it's quite a big advantage for him, and why such an advantage is needed when his race is already at their back foot.

 

[EldritchNeko]

also the closest real life parallel based on geography and time period wouldn’t be Protestants, but Lollards, who were a heretical pre-Protestant (~1300-1600) Catholic reform movement based in England

the closest parallel based on religious and ethnic tolerance would be the Muslim Spain (~700-1400), who expressly allowed Jews and Christians to practice for an additional tax unlike Catholic kingdoms

Wasn't Constantinople/Istanbul pretty decent in terms of religious tolerance too? I remember reading about multiple religious structures that had different areas for muslims, christians, and jews, all in the same building. Pretty sure there wasn't an additional tax either, though I really don't know much about that for certain (that particular piece of knowledge comes from database entries in Assassin's Creed: Revelations, which largely takes place in that city).

PS: I'm learning a fair bit from you. Thank you.

 

[lowarctic]

Wasn't Constantinople/Istanbul pretty decent in terms of religious tolerance too? I remember reading about multiple religious structures that had different areas for muslims, christians, and jews, all in the same building. Pretty sure there wasn't an additional tax either, though I really don't know much about that for certain (that particular piece of knowledge comes from database entries in Assassin's Creed: Revelations, which largely takes place in that city).

PS: I'm learning a fair bit from you. Thank you.

yes, but Ottoman Empire was farther in terms of geography and time period (Revelations takes place in 1511, after the medieval period ended) than Muslim Spain (Al-Andalus)

Islamic states historically imposed a tax called jizya on non-Muslims derived from passages in the Quran in exchange for exemption from military service and the freedom to practice their own religion, and as a result were often more tolerant than their contemporary Christian counterparts

 

[MonstaMaps]

Ngl, this chapter was beyond cringe to read, and seemed very low effort work by the author...
Like you can't be bothered to make up religions, regions and what not of your own fantasy world? like really?
You just go for a carbon copy of irl stuff and just add a letter or two? Like seriously? You Open up with hawk riding and interesting ranching of them and other interesting creatures in the first chapters and then you hit us with this copy pasta, low effort, second hand embarrassment?
The world map is just our world map just with some areas stretched out, the religions are literally just our religions just with 2 extra letters, then you just copy paste the crusades, like you don't even put in effort into it to such a degree that you just call Britain Albion which is literally just how the Greeks used to call the place in around the 4th century, this went from quite interesting to low tier low effort drivel in literally handful of chapters, insane. No wonder the translators before dropped this, i would as well if i would come from such a strong start into this... Drivel.
I'm beyond disappointed in this, i don't even know why as i wasn't even that invested in this or why this is still in my "reading" tab as i DESPISE school arcs.

it is not really any different to other inspirations. i've read so many manga that use greek mythology or roman or norse.. amount of cerberus and fenrir to last a life time.

 

[MonstaMaps]

Modern day western societies are pretty much the exception to that rule.

hahahahahahaha

 

[DexerAnother]

my senses were tingling on this kind of world building

 

[blackLuna]

First off, I never said the church WAS evil, I said it has done many evil actions. And that's the same in the manga- We're just focused on the corrupted elements of the Manga Church because they're the ones starting racist holy wars. In the same chapter we meet Ether who is a very nice individual church member, and we learn that there are multiple nations within the Yeesus faith with doctrinal and political differences. Some are less evil than others.

I can't agree that it's useful to separate political entities with the institution, I think they are diametrically tied. The institution (Culture, doctrines) are derived from the material entities (people, places, external culture influencing, etc.) that adhere to it. And through history the "beliefs" of the church have been adapted to match the culture around them. For example consider how different catholicism is in America than in South Korea or in Brazil.

To your point about libraries being culpable for the crimes of the military, I don't see how that absolves the military (which acts with institutional authority). If you mean to say that institutions don't do crimes, smaller groups of members do crimes; yes, obviously. Institutions are metaphysical concepts made up of groups of members. Like I said, they are diametrically tied. Institution as superstructure, Members as infrastructure. Another important point is when members do crimes and the institution leadership doesn't condemn them.

I see your point about making value judgments about what is evil or not, so I'll start with some broad institutional accusations.

One, that by the 4th century the Church was a landed interest with a ruling class. Certainly there are fringe cases of benevolent ruling classes, but I'd say in general you don't become rulers by playing nice. Anyways you find plenty of examples of the ruling authority abusing their power. Corruption, bribery, selling fake relics, sexual hedonism, indulgences, living in largesse at the expense of the people, excommunication of political rivals, covering up widespread sexual abuse, and waging intersectarian war. As stated before, these are both the crimes of individuals, yet widespread and protected by institutional leaders.

Two, that Christianity uses in group/out group identity to justify violence. Often to attain power/wealth for the ruling class. That includes violence against non-Christians, and sectarian violence between Christians. Starting with Paul of Tarsus advocacy of missionary work, it has led to centuries of "Christian MIssionaries" justifying exploitation and genocide. (This one in particular is the example in the manga. Fake Catholica is waging a colonial war using religious justification). This includes Christian missionaries in Feudal Japan who sought to incite armed insurrection and conquer the island for Christianity. It's no wonder that Japanese culture finds the Church shifty.

First off, please stop acting as though Christianity and the Church are evil or a special kind of evil (claiming that this list of crimes and labelling them widespread means exactly that, even if you pretend otherwise). That kind of prejudice is sickening regardless of the group being targeted. The only reason people get away with this is the obscene idea that if you have the upper hand in some way (or are perceived to), you're somehow morally responsible for any conflict or bad thing which happens in your vicinity. Keep in mind that this is also the excuse used by antisemites (many of them believe that a group persecuted for more than 3,000 years somehow controls the world or its economy) — it's a dangerous and slippery slope.

You've also clearly completely bought into the worst forms of anti-Catholic propaganda. The list of accusations against Christianity you've come up with are mostly things which were put forth by Protestants during the most violent and hate-fuelled periods of the Reformation (most notably, the Thirty Years' War — the Catholics of the period/conflict did this too, but their propaganda ended up being less lasting). The rest are mostly the work of people who are violently anti-Catholic for other reasons (and obviously have vested intrest in the accusations being bought into). The accusations of "sexual hedonism" and what you call "widespread sexual abuse" are the biggest red flags here: very few of these cases have been tried in a court of law, let alone been given a guilty verdict. False accusations are far, far more common than people believe or pretend. (For example, my first college roommate, both highly manipulative and sociopathic in behaviour, had a nasty breakup with her first lover in college. She eventually retaliated by managing to convince him to delete all their exchanges on his devices and then presenting only his half of them to the Title IX office… crying rape and asking them to expel the guy (no legal action had ever been taken). When the office repeatedly turned it down, citing lack of evidence and suspect circumstances, the college president got involved, with the same result. So she tried to get him (the college president) booted, to no effect.) Many of the supposed cases of "sexual abuse" or "hedonism" have obvious grudges of other types mixed in, and, tellingly, even in today's society which does not as a whole penalize confirmed rape victims, they rarely go to the law with their accusations. In some cases, when abuse did occur, little to no effort is made in the way of investigation, in favour of pointing at the priest and screaming rape. Disgustingly, today, this is normal: for the court of public opion, the accuser is quickly deemed "victim" and the accused the actual perp without any further investigation. This is despite there being known cases of mistaken identity, as well as proven false accusations. Those false accusations are, by the way, illegal if brought to court (they ought to be considered libellous too, but libel law is basically non-existent these days, considering people get away with referring to someone acquitted of murder a murderer, among other things). Those facts render the majority of the supposed/unproven cases highly suspect (not to pretend that there aren't any actual examples… but it isn't widespread or common by any means).

You're also pretending that protracted conflicts such as the Thirty Years' War or the Crusades were only the product of one the belligerents. And that any extra violence incurred follows suit. That's another obvious red flag for you. Conflicts where one side merely waged war defensively are rare in the extreme. The violence and lack of concern for those associated with one's opposition was in both cases cited was completely mutual. In the case of the Protestant Reformation, Catholics actually have a somewhat better record than the Protestants — after all, a religion with good organizational skills has an easier time stopping excesses and wanton cruelty than one without, and this holds true irrespective of religion. (And if you're going to counter with "witch hunts" then I have a wakeup call for you: the biggest incentive for witch hunts was people not settling down. Catholics (the Orthodox, and some higher church Protestants) had an alternative to marriage; most Protestants didn't. Ultimately, the witch hunts weren't really about religion to begin with, despite seeming that way at a glance: they were about insecurities and mass-hysteria.)

Another point: a minority of violent crazies does not ever represent the whole. The periodic cases of a nut job killing or harming a bunch of people does not in any way mean that much of, let alone the entire group to which they belong follow suit. That is like claiming that anyone with similarities to Ariel Castro or Josef Fritzl condones their horrific actions, or that relatives of individuals who commit "honour" killings necessarily agree with the act. Or that the Saudi nutcase who plowed a car into a Christmas market in Germany was representative of his country or ethnic group. Outliers are nothing more than outliers, they never should be considered representative. It's only when you have a group like the Nazis or Daesh with actual traction that you have cause for general concern (and a nightmare for the people they claim to represent — since both actively use "fear culture"). I repeat: outliers are not the rule!

Additionally, you're also pretending that the Church was attempting to colonize Japan, which is the most absurd claim of the lot. One, Christian missionary work aims to peacefully convert people, nothing more. Moreover, Christianity is a religion of belief over practice — you're converted if you believe rather than practice, so use of force is generally rejected (the Spanish Inquisition is an outlier). As such, your screaming genocide and colonialism (which you clearly equate to evil) at Saul of Tarsus, better known as Paul the Apostle, is down right abhorrent. (But, let's put aside Paul's pre-Christian persecution of Christians aside. For one thing, it was socially motivated, not culturally or religiously — by fear that the growth of Christianity would result in further persecution of Jews, who were already second-class citizens.) Peaceful conversion is neither colonization nor genocide (if you're trying to claim otherwise, there's something very, very wrong with your sources, if nothing else). The claim of trying to bring Japan under the thumb of the Papacy was mainly the result of multiple cultural and linguistic differences resulting in misunderstandings and as a means of justifying the mass-murder of Japanese Christians — which you've clearly ignored. In fact, the actual reason for the Japanese fear of Catholicism, apart from those cultural and linguistic differences, was the anti-Catholic propaganda introduced by the first Europeans the Japanese made contact with, the Dutch (then newly independent from Catholic Spain and happy to shovel out as much dirt as they could, in part to protect their economic interests in the Pacific). Additionally, much of the modern Japanese view of Christianity is an obvious mixture of historical propaganda, ignorance, and apathy. Fear hasn't been a part of it since those mass-murders I mentioned (there were more than 400 confirmed victims, while the survivors were forced into hiding, like the Jewish conversos of Iberia).

As for colonialism, rather than "evil," it's a mixed bag (not to pretend that there weren't cruelties and negative aspects — there most definitely were). For many countries, it brought improvements infrastructure and human rights as a whole (King Leopold's Mines were far from the norm, and horrified damn well near everyone, including the missionaries). The horrific African slave trade didn't involve any colonialism; the enslaving was done by other Africans; European colonialization of Africa was primary 19th-century. In fact, when it came to the cruelties seen in the colonial process, Christianity was usually the force objecting (same goes for slavery, for that matter). The reason we know about the cruelties comitted by some of conquistadors?— the report of a priest decrying it and asking his superiors to intervene. Additionally, things like human sacrifice and forced suicide?— Abrahamic religions have fiercely fought against both of those nearly as long as there's been a record of said religions. So what do you think was amongst the first things most Christians sought to impose, even before they got around to missionary work?— basic human rights. While there were abhorrent cruelties in colonialism, there were also some benefits for the colonized (whether the good outweighed the bad is quite another question, and was basically case by case as the state of the people before hand and the colonial process varied greatly).

Please stop with the Christianophobia and Catholophobia. They're just as bad as any other kind of bigotry out there.