How About R15? - Vol. 2 Ch. 11 - Akine's Rebellion

[BuyVelomobiles]

Potentially the most retarded analogy I've ever come across.

It must also be the first analogy you've ever come across, then.

 

[Ravinous]

It must also be the first analogy you've ever come across, then.

No, it was non sequitur and made no real connection to what we are talking about. Your analogy was not applicable to the situation. These rules of "no sniping" were put into play in the early days of the 90's vhs swapping / late 90's scanalation for two reasons.

1) The Logical Reason: So not everyone of the handful of translators were going to translate the hottest thing all at once while ignoring other possible series.

2) The not so good reason: People wanted clout in the anime community and people literally fought for it, and larger groups shamed smaller groups that encrouched on their "territory". Why? Some groups sometimes got in with the license holders to make actual money. See 7 Seas, Crunchy Roll, ADV/Funimation, etc have a lot of people who took part in this. It's something older fans will remember.

We are well past that 2nd reason and now it's just clout chasing and holding it over the fans. Complaining about it doesn't really do anything for anyone.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

No, it was non sequitur and made no real connection to what we are talking about. Your analogy was not applicable to the situation.

Sounds to me like it is, since both cases feature people complaining about others taking things that said complainer has no legal right to. We're not endowed with magical rights to the series we translate any more than you are to the contents of your shopping cart. They also feature some other person taking conscious steps to take it. First group wants to get the views, the shopper wants to buy the stuff.

1) The Logical Reason: So not everyone of the handful of translators were going to translate the hottest thing all at once while ignoring other possible series.

2) The not so good reason: People wanted clout in the anime community and people literally fought for it, and larger groups shamed smaller groups that encrouched on their "territory". Why? Some groups sometimes got in with the license holders to make actual money. See 7 Seas, Crunchy Roll, ADV/Funimation, etc have a lot of people who took part in this. It's something older fans will remember.

We are well past that 2nd reason and now it's just clout chasing and holding it over the fans. Complaining about it doesn't really do anything for anyone.

I don't know what you're on about, and I don't care. Nobody wants to be the second person to publish something and get almost none of the views. And chances are that if you're sniping a series, your work is of inferior quality. Case in point: These guys thought it was appropriate to include dialogue like "For the love of all that is holy, stop" and "DON'T FUCK WITH ME"

 

[moblinsecret]

Message for DFL: if your release schedule is that messed up that you’re slow enough to be behind on chapters, you don’t really get to complain about “sniping” when someone who’s actually willing to put in the work picks it up, none of you scanlators even have the rights for these properties to begin with, you guys aren’t the ones who gets to decide who gets to work on it. Don’t wanna get “sniped”? Stick to the schedule. You people are pathetic.

Maybe you got mixed up in who said what, but Danke furs Lesen haven't been complaining about sniping at all - see the comment by Kafka above. In fact, the impression I got from their comment was that they just didn't want to collaborate on the series, and the reason they didn't give permission to translate the series was because that permission wasn't theirs to give.

You have no right to the contents of your shopping cart, but I feel like you'd complain quite a bit if I went and took it all from you and bought it myself.

I don't completely get this analogy. I'm guessing that the person pushing the shopping cart is you, the reader of this series, and the contents of the shopping cart are the scanlations. Isn't a sniper adding more things into your shopping cart then? That might be annoying, but they're not taking the contents of the cart away from you.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

I don't completely get this analogy. I'm guessing that the person pushing the shopping cart is you, the reader of this series, and the contents of the shopping cart are the scanlations.

All the people are the scan groups. They pick up series not entirely like merchandise and put them in their "cart" to work on later. Now I don't know about you, but I don't sit around working on Black Kite because I've got a kink for translation and bad manga. The work is in my "cart", and I'd like to actually get some benefit from it. Since I'm not paid to do this, it would really be nice if I didn't spend 2-3 days scrying through the chicken scratch just to have it ignored because some other guy dragged his ass cheeks over the keyboard and posted whatever came out!

So if I'm clearly working on something, is there really nothing else you'd like to do than try wasting my time? Yeah, I don't own the series, and I don't own the ketchup- but please, get your hands out of my cart, dammit; I'm clearly doing something with this.

I'm not even upset about the sniping thing per-se, though it is inefficient. But for every case of good snipes saving some bad series done by machines, or by people who speak neither English, nor Japanese, there are snipes ranging from mediocre, like this one, to just plain bad. Because of course they are: they're coming out faster; and all else being equal, faster work is sloppier work.

 

[Bananawithaknife]

I get it that she is angry to her mom
but for the honor student Amou suddenly spouting fuck to her mother is a bit harsh, no?
very out of character

oh, I see, it is not the usual translator

I see it as absolutely great development. For so long she just listened to her mom who just stifled a lot of her wishes and wouldn't even tell her the reason. Also, with the recent exposure of adult movies, of course that'll effect some of her vocab.

Even just from the images you can tell that Amou snapped, so the use of crass languange is very appropriate.

 

[Bananawithaknife]

Me comes to talk about the chap innocently

Sees sniping TL drama

Wise decision

 

[undeed]

I see it as absolutely great development. For so long she just listened to her mom who just stifled a lot of her wishes and wouldn't even tell her the reason. Also, with the recent exposure of adult movies, of course that'll effect some of her vocab.

and proving her mother's point that movies are bad for her development?

Even just from the images you can tell that Amou snapped, so the use of crass languange is very appropriate.

maybe because I've read way ahead,
so for me, no,
as far as I remember it,the future Amou is still as pure as she was

 

[Bananawithaknife]

and proving her mother's point that movies are bad for her development?

Well she only snapped because of her mother being really overbearing and not telling anything. So really it's her parenting that has been bad for her development.

maybe because I've read way ahead,
so for me, no,
as far as I remember it,the future Amou is still as pure as she was

I don't mean that she's becoming less pure (although I do admit, I probably should've worded it differently). Just that she can actually get angry and assert what she want.
I've seen plenty of people just as pure in real life snap and say things that are really out of character. It's not often and definitely doesn't change who they are as people.

Should the translator used a swear for emphasis of the situation or not because of cultural difference is very debatable. But if the biggest argument for why they shouldn't is because "It doesn't fit her character", then I feel it's fine. It gives her more character than just the "pure maiden" archetype and considering that she immediately felt awful for saying it also adds to how nice and pure she actually is and the one time swearing doesn't detract from that.

 

[undeed]

Well she only snapped because of her mother being really overbearing and not telling anything. So really it's her parenting that has been bad for her development.

I don't mean that she's becoming less pure (although I do admit, I probably should've worded it differently). Just that she can actually get angry and assert what she want.
I've seen plenty of people just as pure in real life snap and say things that are really out of character. It's not often and definitely doesn't change who they are as people.

Should the translator used a swear for emphasis of the situation or not because of cultural difference is very debatable. But if the biggest argument for why they shouldn't is because "It doesn't fit her character", then I feel it's fine. It gives her more character than just the "pure maiden" archetype and considering that she immediately felt awful for saying it also adds to how nice and pure she actually is and the one time swearing doesn't detract from that.

I don't know,
I feel like I was just too accustomed to Japanese lifestyles vibe, so for me when I read those two bubbles, what I imagine is she talking with a deep sinister voice instead of swearing (from her expression)

it would have made more sense to me if the unintentional swearing came about when she was at the peak of her outburst a couple pages after (with screaming and all)
because at that moment then she realized that she went too far

I find it a bit off if Amou was that harsh since beginning that her mother in the end just let her join the club with a heartwarming talk without mentioning anything
(the mother tells the reason of her unreasonable houserule, but it is still a secret to the reader)

but that is just my two cents

 

[Bananawithaknife]

it would be make more sense to me if the accidental swearing appears when she was at her peak outburst a couple page after (with screaming and all)
because at that moment then she realized that she went too far

I guess you could see it that way. Where a swear slipped out and she immediately realised and regretted what she just said.

I feel like I was just too accustomed to Japanese lifestyles vibe, so for me when I read those two bubbles, what I imagine is she talking with a deep sinister voice instead of swearing (from her expression)

It's one of the troubles of translating stories. If she just used a sinister voice then a lot of western readers won't feel the impact of the scene but it would also be culturally inaccurate to setting.

Also thanks for being a reasonable discussion buddy. Especially with how the rest of the comment section here has been like.

 

[Ravinous]

I don't know what you're on about, and I don't care. Nobody wants to be the second person to publish something and get almost none of the views. And chances are that if you're sniping a series, your work is of inferior quality. Case in point: These guys thought it was appropriate to include dialogue like "For the love of all that is holy, stop" and "DON'T FUCK WITH ME"

chuckle You admit it's about clout and claiming something that isn't their's to begin with.

And if you care about quality, just wait for a different group. Some people don't want to wait 6 months to several years for an update. Not being able to access content is the whole reason unofficial translations exist to begin with.

As for your shopping cart analogy, it was you grasping at straws. It's not applicable no matter how much you try to spin it.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

chuckle You admit it's about clout and claiming something that isn't their's to begin with.

Yeah. You don't pay for the chapter, you don't pay anyone to do the work, you don't pay for the server hosting. Clearly someone's trying to get something out of this. And until you start paying for one of these things, that's going to be your attention. Or do you think the people putting in all this work should be satisfied with getting whatever trickle of interest is left after some other moron blows his load prematurely? Get real. If I do the work, it's for the most attention possible.

And if you care about quality, just wait for a different group.

I care about engagement.

As for your shopping cart analogy, it was you grasping at straws. It's not applicable no matter how much you try to spin it.

It's a great analogy, you're just not thinking it through. Unless you think you have a right to the contents of your cart.

 

[Ravinous]

Yeah. You don't pay for the chapter, you don't pay anyone to do the work, you don't pay for the server hosting. Clearly someone's trying to get something out of this. And until you start paying for one of these things, that's going to be your attention. Or do you think the people putting in all this work should be satisfied with getting whatever trickle of interest is left after some other moron blows his load prematurely? Get real. If I do the work, it's for the most attention possible.

I pay for official releases when they come out, people donate for the server fee's, and beyond that, unofficial translating is a volunteer job. If you expect to get accolades going in, then your doing it for the wrong reason. If you want that then you got to go into to the field of translating or editing, of which for the prior there are plenty of jobs and a desperate need of such. If you want to get attention, go on tik tok or participate in being a yacht girl/boy.

I know this might blow your mind, but some people do it because they enjoy the community and like participating in helping their favorite series, not just shallow reasons.

If someone gets to it quicker than you, and you think it's not good enough, make a better version. Then the people who care will give you their praise for that ego you need petting. But doesn't make the other person wrong, especially if you abandoned or fallen far behind on the work you've snicker "claimed" and then only get upset when someone else picks it up.

Hell there were some groups getting pissy over 7 Seas when they went from pirate to legit "sniping" their "claims" because pubishers took them up on a licensing deal.

I care about engagement.

Okay? I care about enjoyment.

It's a great analogy, you're just not thinking it through. Unless you think you have a right to the contents of your cart.

It's terrible, and theirs no point in thinking about it further.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

I pay for official releases when they come out

"Official releases"? Like, when some other company licenses the workand releases it in English? Because that's got nothing to do with me: since I don't do licensed work.

people donate for the server fee's

Do you?

unofficial translating is a volunteer job. If you expect to get accolades going in, then your doing it for the wrong reason.

Considering it's the reason that gets your obscure manga translated for free at reasonable quality, I'd say it's the best reason of all.

I know this might blow your mind, but some people do it because they enjoy the community and like participating in helping their favorite series, not just shallow reasons.

Yeah, that only gets one or two series done, at best.

If someone gets to it quicker than you, and you think it's not good enough, make a better version

I don't think I will. That's a lot of work for almost nobody to see.

Okay? I care about enjoyment.

Good for you. I don't know that you translate anything. I know I do, and I care about engagement.

It's terrible, and theirs no point in thinking about it further.

I think it just went over your head.

 

[Ravinous]

"Official releases"? Like, when some other company licenses the workand releases it in English? Because that's got nothing to do with me: since I don't do licensed work.

Then your opinion on this subject is very much reduced. Yarhar. XD

Do you?

When I can, yes. Why wouldn't I?

Considering it's the reason that gets your obscure manga translated for free at reasonable quality, I'd say it's the best reason of all.

Not really, you just have a shallow self centered view on it. Your sort of in the minority on that one.

Yeah, that only gets one or two series done, at best.

Nah, that's completely false. Grasping at straws again. Let's take an example, Nagatoro. The original "fan" translator (though the tin hat is that it's the actual author or someone who knows them) on 4chan encouraged other groups to handle the editorial work. And many obscure series are released under anonymous groups.

I don't think I will. That's a lot of work for almost nobody to see.

Then work on something else if you can't keep up.

Good for you. I don't know that you translate anything. I know I do, and I care about engagement.

Good for you, but maybe work on something because you enjoy it. If your not then maybe it's not the right hobby to have. As for myself, I give monetary support to the author, because with out them we wouldn't have our hobby to begin with. (and perhaps some clean up work or helping set up conventions).

I think it just went over your head.

No it didn't, it was just bad man, but I get it, cognitive dissonance can be hard.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Then your opinion on this subject is very much reduced. Yarhar. XD

What?

When I can, yes. Why wouldn't I?

Because you'd rather not. Also glad to know you do something. It sure beats out "I pay for literally nothing regarding you and your work, but I'll how you should feel"

Nah, that's completely false. Grasping at straws again. Let's take an example, Nagatoro. The original "fan" translator (though the tin hat is that it's the actual author or someone who knows them) on 4chan encouraged other groups to handle the editorial work. And many obscure series are released under anonymous groups.

I'm confused and disoriented.

Then work on something else if you can't keep up.

I do; that's rather the point: It stops people like me from doing the work. We've come full circle. The "better translation" doesn't come if most of the readers won't see it.

Good for you, but maybe work on something because you enjoy it.

I'll work on whatever I want, for whatever reason I want, thanks.

No it didn't, it was just bad man, but I get it, cognitive dissonance can be hard.

Sure was. Worst analogy ever. I'm sure I'd think the same if you made one I didn't understand.

 

[moblinsecret]

I know this might blow your mind, but some people do it because they enjoy the community and like participating in helping their favorite series, not just shallow reasons.

I think this is true for all scanlators (who aren't doing it for money), including @BuyVelomobiles, except they phrased it in the least flattering way possible.
What does community even mean? It comes down to having a group of people follow the manga, right? So when a scanlator is releasing their work, they're trying to get people to continue to read the series, and maybe get new people to start reading as well. You can call this "fostering a community" or "seeking attention" but they both mean the same thing.
Or maybe I'm being way too generous in my interpretation of BuyVelomobiles's motive, correct me if I'm wrong lol

Good for you, but maybe work on something because you enjoy it. If your not then maybe it's not the right hobby to have.

I don't think anyone actually enjoys the process of translating, cleaning, typesetting etc. It looks like a massive chore. People translate the manga they like because they like the manga, not because they like translating - you don't see people translating series they hate, right?

lots of stuff

lots of stuff

Anyway what were you guys arguing about in the first place? I think Ravinous was mad at BuyVelomobiles because they said that sniping means that we might lose translations of the series completely? I'm sure that it can happen, with both scanlators dropping the series, but I don't know any examples (mainly because dropped series are by nature something you don't get reminded about), and I don't think that's the outcome most of the time. Plenty more series get dropped or forgotten about without any scanlator drama anyway.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Or maybe I'm being way too generous in my interpretation of BuyVelomobiles's motive, correct me if I'm wrong lol

I work, and I like the idea that someone enjoys my work. This does not happen when I am the second guy to post something. Any insistence that I should not care about this is fundamentally flawed: Nobody goes through great effort to do things that they don't enjoy, and that others won't benefit from, for free. Least of all me.

I don't think anyone actually enjoys the process of translating, cleaning, typesetting etc. It looks like a massive chore

It has its moments, believe it or not. Consider this: Even when working on the worst manga, you live safe in the knowledge that you're among the first to actually read it.

People translate the manga they like because they like the manga, not because they like translating - you don't see people translating series they hate, right?

I do. It's how manga like Black Kite, Bocchi Tenseiki, and Barbaroi no Yome got done. Once I start a project, I'm compelled to finish it.

Anyway what were you guys arguing about in the first place? I think Ravinous was mad at BuyVelomobiles because they said that sniping means that we might lose translations of the series completely?

Basically, I say sniping loses us manga. The new guys are almost always not as good, and the originals can lose motivation. I sure do. Ravinous here says that my reasons are bad, that I should push through and release the manga anyway despite the reduced views, and that other people don't share my desire for engagement.

 

[Ravinous]

Basically, I say sniping loses us manga. The new guys are almost always not as good, and the originals can lose motivation. I sure do. Ravinous here says that my reasons are bad, that I should push through and release the manga anyway despite the reduced views, and that other people don't share my desire for engagement.

I'm saying don't get mad at others for taking up and translating an manga you've got no rights too when the translating is falling behind. Which is what was going on with this and many other series. No one is asking that you "press on", do if you want or do not if you don't.

The core is telling others they "Can't do it" or shutting them out because you want the attention. That you are claiming something that isn't even legally your's to claim.

As long as it's being done in good faith I don't see a problem with someone else trying to pick up a series that is far behind, slow updating, or just abandoned for months.

You can have your critique about the translations, god knows the community on whole has complaints about the state of a lot of Official translations going off script or injecting opinions, but fan translations will be that way sometimes. In the end we are mostly the beggars, we cannot be choosers.

It's why I think, despite the weird, 4chan's translator community stays strong because they just don't care about wanting fame or acknowledgment. Nagataro translations and popularity started there, Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer, Welcome to the NHK, etc.

I just find it rather silly in the end, because we have these sort of competitive self destructive clout chasing, while the "Worst Place on the Internet's" internal translating community just does it becuase they want to share in the fandom.