I'm in Love with the Villainess - Vol. 7 Ch. 35 - There can be only one

[Asheron]

Spoiler

This is actually a relevant plot point and will be used against her later. It's one of her character flaws that she's so busy being analytical and detached from her surroundings that Claire thinks Rae would be fine even if she died.

Spoiler

Then it could actually end up being a positive. That was just my take at this point in the story. A romantic climax and fulfillment is always most fulfilling to me when there is a big obstacle to overcome. Often it is an emotional barrier and the final breakdown/weeping/falling into the others' arms as their romantic salvation is revealed is a great payoff. So I look forward to cheering the main couple on when that hopefully happens! (Better not be a tragic ending. )

 

[vvboondoggirl]

The moral superiority label comes from a mere reader authoritatively asserting, not just intention of the product, but how it should be received by others ,and of course casting judgment where someone else's opinion differs from your own. Like, at this point in the manga, Yuu could be transgender or just in disguise. Maybe the third boy child in the world setting gets ritually sacrificed? Who knows!?! Seriously! I don't think that is some sort of 'outrageous' hot take for which, "Reee! Transphobia!" needs to be the Pavlovian response. FWIW, either outcome is perfectly fine with me. Other readers can have whatever interpretation they like.

If there is some editorial leeway, I could see a foreign country power in the manga introduce a love potion effect amongst the main cast and a non-explicit lesbian orgy ensuing for a one-chapter arc. That would be fine too. It would be somewhat surprising, but it's manga, it could happen. Brace yourself. Comic Yuri Hime has fan-service lesbian brothel stories as well, as you know.

As far as yuri being queer media, this is again you trying to authoritatively claim something to the exclusion of other demographics who enjoy the media. It is also a very dubious claim, especially when talking about Comic Yuri Hime. A quick Google search confirms what I already knew:

From: https://www.animefeminist.com/yuri-is-for-everyone-an-analysis-of-yuri-demographics-and-readership/

The modern yuri audience is extremely varied, and no single group within it (except for yurijin) has a consistent majority. As of 2017, the largest yuri manga publication, Comic Yuri Hime, boasts a readership consisting of approximately 60% men and 40% women.

I think you are unnecessarily bringing your own real world issues into entertainment media, so it's not surprising your castigations will be rejected by others. When Star Wars fans want to argue that they think the Empire was in right, they aren't getting shouted down as being real-world pro-genocide. Similarly, yuri fans who like to see attractive female characters suggestively (or not) interacting with one another, and read and interpret characters accordingly with that emphasis, don't need your shouts of "Wrongthink!" or "Transphobia!" either. That kind of judgment is not received well and goes right in the trash where it belongs.

oh you actual clownshow. when i say its "queer media" that doesn't mean for queers only or that its demographically binding. I never said that. I use queer as a political term. Any depiction of gay people does have inherent political immediacy. Also using the autistic screeching thing just proves your bigotry and nothing you've really said is any excuse. You immediately categorizing the word transphobia as useless just as well demonstrates you don't think trans people have any particular place in queer media or any media at all. Absolutely ignorant. As for your first sentence that's really a bunch of words for "I reject the concepts of critical reading and literary analysis when those things result in politics I don't like being revealed/asserted." You're not actually arguing genuinely for a specific nuanced interpretation or the concept itself. Funnily enough, there is both things that lend to differences in interpretations and things that are directly invoked such as allusions and plainly stated political beliefs, there's nuance.
Also I read Asumi chan too. I read plenty of "problematic" yuri. I don't where you think I have some moral condemnation of sex work, which as someone pointed out, would have been rubbed raw in other media specifically in this series.
No one sane would argue BL isn't queer either, regardless of the demographic we all know it has in readership.
Also idk, i think it is extremely racist to be like "ah Japan doesnt have queerness the same way the US does so you can't compare it directly else youre the racist wah wah."

 

[vvboondoggirl]

We've literally seen im gonna be a pedant about the phobia part of "transphobia" to accuse the trans person of being transphobic/offensive song and dance literally hundreds of times. It's not clever and it does nothing to absolve my "castigations". The fact of the matter is transness has been rejected in ways that assert that it doesnt belong and couldnt possibly belong and doesnt have bearing on this story, and doesnt have bearing in textual interpretation. The concept of even using the term transphobia has been summarily dismissed as worthless. Thats damning.


Queer person and bigot arent mutually exclusive either. I can recall like 5 transphobic BL's off the top of my head. White cis queers can be horribly racist. This is different than queer as a political term in which yes, disabled people, people of color, trans people are uplifted. Its not always gonna be perfect. Like WataOshi itself isn't perfect squeaky clean. But there is some level of political intention to that affect. I will repeat that queer media generally is not going to actively court bigots. It might falter and fail in individual cases and that may or may not disqualify it. For the record I really don't have an issue with straight people/men reading yuri. My only hope is they recognize the political nature of their consumption and idk, be better people in their public life towards queer people. I will say when you cut open the male demographic in the US, most of the male readers are queer in some other way, either their bi or gay or trans or some combination in near equal proportion to cishet males. Bigots will consume this stuff but they are always going to have their gripes as time and time again when any yuri manga or LN addresses modern queer politics in japan theres a tiff.

 

[vvboondoggirl]

Also asserting that trans people have not existed in an evolutionarily significant way is wildly transphobic LMAO. Like. You do know Enheduanna, Sargon of Akkad's daughter, was essentially trans? Ishtar/Inanna/Cybele all had trans priestesses who essentially led the lives of trans people changing their names, their dialect, altering their bodies, doing as much as they could given their understanding of medicine. The Scythians? Canaanites had early jews had genders functionally describing both trans people and intersex people. The Cybele eunuchs, aka, trans priestesses of Cybele, existed at the birth of christianity right? You do know that indigenous people the world over have had gender diversity within their cultures? Hawaiians, indigenous peoples in the americas, etc. we have quite clearly been around throughout earliest recorded history, it's just that history has tried to erase us out time and time again.

 

[Manchura]

Also asserting that trans people have not existed in an evolutionarily significant way is wildly transphobic LMAO. Like. You do know Enheduanna, Sargon of Akkad's daughter, was essentially trans? Ishtar/Inanna/Cybele all had trans priestesses who essentially led the lives of trans people changing their names, their dialect, altering their bodies, doing as much as they could given their understanding of medicine. The Scythians? Canaanites had early jews had genders functionally describing both trans people and intersex people. The Cybele eunuchs, aka, trans priestesses of Cybele, existed at the birth of christianity right? You do know that indigenous people the world over have had gender diversity within their cultures? Hawaiians, indigenous peoples in the americas, etc. we have quite clearly been around throughout earliest recorded history, it's just that history has tried to erase us out time and time again.

1st: Enheduanna was not trans, merely shared the similar situation to king Jadwiga of poland where the title can only be conferred as it is regardless of who takes the position

2nd: those three religions used castrated slaves from central asia as their priests, even if you are right that they took on the roles of a woman well, it was unconsentual at best

3rd: the cult of Cybele was so ancient we really don't have much understanding of their practices but what we do know is rome tolerated it due to non-romans being the priests, since to be a priest meant being castrated which was illegal for any roman citizen to undergo since it was considered dehumanizing

4th: just no, I've seen these arguments time and time again from people who imprint modern ideas onto ancient societies with question marks as if they were just like us and completely ignore the rest of the historical context we know, you do not have history with these groups and if you ever tried to interact with them via time travel I can guarantee they'd have you strung up and flayed or whatever equivalent their culture had

 

[BobTheSkrull]

The moral superiority label comes from a mere reader authoritatively asserting, not just intention of the product, but how it should be received by others ,and of course casting judgment where someone else's opinion differs from your own. Like, at this point in the manga, Yuu could be transgender or just in disguise.

I think you are unnecessarily bringing your own real world issues into entertainment media, so it's not surprising your castigations will be rejected by others.

I don't think they're asserting that as a reader interpreting it their own way, but as someone who has read literally any of the author's comments on her intentions and how it should be received.

I'll admit it's not entirely fair of them to assume everyone is on the same page now that the twist has been revealed, but that's more of a "spoiler" issue than an "interpretive" one.

What I can say is that they're 100% not jumping the shark on this. As in, the author has stepped in on things like much smaller details being cut from the English localization of the LN. If the mangaka, for whatever reason, decided to change how the arc is handled, the author would step in (especially considering how much the arc means to her).

Yeah, I just binged this manga this week and people should not be deterred from it thinking it woke cancer or preachy or overly political or anything like that. The original webnovel source may be different but this manga is honestly very light-hearted and fun and you would not think it is sexually political at all unless you start reading people's comments.

Did you skip chapter 7 or the last few chapters?

 

[Asheron]

Asheron said:
Yeah, I just binged this manga this week and people should not be deterred from it thinking it woke cancer or preachy or overly political or anything like that. The original webnovel source may be different but this manga is honestly very light-hearted and fun and you would not think it is sexually political at all unless you start reading people's comments.

Did you skip chapter 7 or the last few chapters?

Maybe I am just super-open minded or oblivious but I just re-read Ch. 7 and it does not come across as preachy or political at all to me. It is a pretty comedic chapter overall, with lots of Clarie-teasing and Claire blushing. The head pats line could come right out of Nagatoro or Takagi-san. Since this is a yuri series, the reader can pretty safely assume that there is going to be a Rei/Claire end-game, meaning Claire's view of Rei as "dangerous" is pretty sexually charged in a G-giggity! type way, not a political way.

Claire being a tsundere that will eventually fall to Rei's charms, regardless of how she currently views her own sexuality, is what I get as the big take-away from Ch. 7. Claire still has a ways to go to get from where she is to being Rei's lover, but for a Ch. 7, that's where you'd still expect her to be. The "deeper meaning" of Rei putting Claire's happiness in priority to a potential Rei/Claire romance is another takeaway.

Is the open talk of Rei being homosexual supposed to be some in-your-face super-progressivism that is going to deter readers? It really won't come as any big surprise that most female characters in a yuri series will be lesbian.

The moralizing in the comments thread far exceeds any moralizing in the manga, which was the impetus for my original post. Therefore, prospective readers should not be deterred by thinking that the manga is full of divisive and heavy-handed radical left-wing (trans)gender discourse, as is seen elsewhere on the internet. It is pretty much standard fare yuri romcom and therefore will have a wide appeal. I don't see how that's up for debate.

In contrast, I can vaguely recall that Bloom Into You had a wandering arc about asexuality or gender-nonconformity late in the series that drew attention and urgency away from the main couple and weakened the series for me. There is nothing like that in Watashi no Oshi. If there is any social justice agenda (for lack of a better term) written into the story, it is well-ingrained and is not at the expense of the pacing of the main story or the main couple relationship.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

Maybe I am just super-open minded or oblivious but I just re-read Ch. 7 and it does not come across as preachy or political at all to me. It is a pretty comedic chapter overall, with lots of Clarie-teasing and Claire blushing. The head pats line could come right out of Nagatoro or Takagi-san. Since this is a yuri series, the reader can pretty safely assume that there is going to be a Rei/Claire end-game, meaning Claire's view of Rei as "dangerous" is pretty sexually charged in a G-giggity! type way, not a political way.

Claire being a tsundere that will eventually fall to Rei's charms, regardless of how she currently views her own sexuality, is what I get as the big take-away from Ch. 7. Claire still has a ways to go to get from where she is to being Rei's lover, but for a Ch. 7, that's where you'd still expect her to be. The "deeper meaning" of Rei putting Claire's happiness in priority to a potential Rei/Claire romance is another takeaway.

Is the open talk of Rei being homosexual supposed to be some in-your-face super-progressivism that is going to deter readers? It really won't come as any big surprise that most female characters in a yuri series will be lesbian.

The moralizing in the comments thread far exceeds any moralizing in the manga, which was the impetus for my original post. Therefore, prospective readers should not be deterred by thinking that the manga is full of divisive and heavy-handed radical left-wing (trans)gender discourse, as is seen elsewhere on the internet. It is pretty much standard fare yuri romcom and therefore will have a wide appeal. I don't see how that's up for debate.

In contrast, I can vaguely recall that Bloom Into You had a wandering arc about asexuality or gender-nonconformity late in the series that drew attention and urgency away from the main couple and weakened the series for me. There is nothing like that in Watashi no Oshi. If there is any social justice agenda (for lack of a better term) written into the story, it is well-ingrained and is not at the expense of the pacing of the main story or the main couple relationship.

Then you might want to check the comments on chapter 7, which has almost 400. Most commenters defended it for sure, but there were more than you'd think that accused the translators of changing things to push an agenda, that accused other commenters of downplaying Rei's behavior, and that accused the author of being an SJW.

In terms of the content, those types of debates aren't as common now in Western countries, but the dialogue was effectively paraphrasing arguments that I've seen around a decade ago. In the first argument, Claire was worried that Rei would assault her (more) now that she knew she was gay was countered with Misha's "However Lady Claire, your reaction is far too extreme and prejudiced just because she's a homosexual", and then points out how insulting it would be if someone assumed Claire would assault the Prince just because she was heterosexual. This mirrors debates from the past 50 or so years where conservatives would try shit like preventing gay people from becoming teachers or serving in the military under the pretenses that gay people would use it as an excuse to assault people. The natural response, of course, is that it's only as like as straight people doing it, so there's no reason to ban gay people from those positions. If you want a more modern example, take a look at the "trans panic" flooding the United States right now, where you have conservatives accusing trans people of being trans just so they can assault children in bathrooms or whatever. It's the same shit. The second argument has more to do with how some people see being gay as "just a phase they'll grow out of" (see early yuri works, usually at all girls boarding schools, where the main characters would end up marrying a man after graduating), with Rei pointing out why that's basically impossible, and the third argument is more plot oriented that the last few chapters have been hinting at. I can go into further detail with the latter two, but I think the first argument was the clearest.

In regards to whether or not it's supposed to be "super progressivism", some people are really, really obstinate. They'll say stuff like "I don’t hate LGBT, I’m just tired of seeing it being shoved in everyone's face", and it will be in response to a character mentioning they're gay, discussing the subject in general, etc. Like, the chapter you saw nothing wrong in managed to get this response:

And this series has gone a bit past that. We've had discussions on class politics, Rei's even more direct argument defending Lily from those girls in the church, Manaria's story of how twisted she became from rejection, the bullying Rei experienced in her old world that led to her avoiding school (which if you're wondering why so many people in the LGBTQ+ community tend to get defensive quick, that's a good portion of it), and now, a character that the author has stated in and out of universe that is trans. Myself and other source readers are pointing to that, which is past Bioshock levels of political at this point, and saying it's only going to get more political from here on out.

 

[JesterQueen]

I don't think they're asserting that as a reader interpreting it their own way, but as someone who has read literally any of the author's comments on her intentions and how it should be received.

I'll admit it's not entirely fair of them to assume everyone is on the same page now that the twist has been revealed, but that's more of a "spoiler" issue than an "interpretive" one.

What I can say is that they're 100% not jumping the shark on this. As in, the author has stepped in on things like much smaller details being cut from the English localization of the LN. If the mangaka, for whatever reason, decided to change how the arc is handled, the author would step in (especially considering how much the arc means to her).

Did you skip chapter 7 or the last few chapters?

Inori is writing the manga herself, it's not a separate mangaka adapting her work.

 

[JesterQueen]

out of the 2 of us I'm the only one who's been thinking critically as I have read your arguments and countered or agreed with them as needed, you've just been emotionally rampaging around claiming silly things and ignoring the entire points others have been on not only this, but many other threads I've seen you on talking with a dogma that not even a mother could love

I am not mad about anything going on in the manga, I'm tired of this game you play where everyone opposed to you in anything is automatically a biggot and your continued misusage of the english lexicon to try and justify it and the myriad of absurd things you do and claim are foolish, within this post you have:

1. misused phobia in an offensive way, a phobia is an evolutionary fear based on multiple hundreds of generations of interactions, trans people have not existed nearly as long in human evolution as needed and been a threat to warrant such a reaction from people so you loop all the way back around to trans people actually being formerly dangerous when you use the term

2. positioned yourself as the sole moral and intellectual arbiter in the discussion and devalued any opposition to a mere brain injury driven by hate, despite being on the side who has attacked others with hate by association

3. you conflate a category that has existed far longer than queerness in the US, and has no social framework to exist in japan, to being solely their domain, despite the dominating force behind yuri being strait Japanese men and women which if they did not consume it then it would not have existed

all I have done is look at people crying wolf about how characters and scenes in the LN had those characters be trans, but that never manifested in the manga and as such, I will continue to not believe it even if it turns out true after this discussion with you, and all Ash has done was say "guys just enjoy the manga and don't argue over trans people in the comments" to which you tell him to get out of this category because he is hateful for not agreeing with you

also if you hit me with this "yuri belongs to the queer community only and you don't belong" when you know nothing else about me then I'm just going to not respond, you don't know if I am trans, gay, or anything else and if I am... by your logic it is my field to say stuff about it, and the only place it matters is in my head and whoever my partner is

It "never manifested in the manga as such" because the time for it hasn't come yet, other than new scenes there hasn't been any major changes from the original, and there probably won't be, since the original author herself is writing it. LGBTQ+ themes and politcs beyond just having lesbian characters is the one thing the original work is known for.

 

[Asheron]

it's only going to get more political from here on out.

Well, I am hopeful and optimistic that the "political" aspects will not derail the main story. So far so good at least - there hasn't been anything yet that I would view as going off on a preachy tangent primarily for the sake of moralizing to the reader. The class divide might seem like it has ventured into this territory, but it's obviously not just for philosophical discussion - seems like it is pretty central to the setting and future plot developments. It's not a case of telling the readers that they should all be communists as that's the only form of government where true economic justice can prevail.

I also wouldn't care one way or the other if Rei ended up chasing after some girl-dick and responded with, "Why are you suprised? I told you I was a homosexual and that I was only attracted to females." I would not call that as going off on a political tangent since it's further fleshing out the main character. Except for the fact that, you know, Rei/Claire is the main pairing I am cheering for, so I would be against it for that reason. Being against it is not an "anti" political position, it is a story preference. I think everyone would concede that as very reasonable in the case of Rei/Clarie, because that relationship being central is canon.

Whether that hypothetical situation ends up being raised for a secondary character, my concern would be a general wariness about whether it could end up being a 3-chapter arc that amounts to a gender studies lecture and takes away the agency of the characters. Like, brother/sister incest is OK for Lene but don't be engaging in any wrongthink you others! Nor you reader! Three months of heady discussion and focus on that, for a manga that doesn't even have philosophical in its tags, would be viewed as pretty off-tone for the 35 preceding chapters. I am not apologizing for saying I would find that a huge turn-off. But so far so good. Even if there ends up beings a half-chapter arc of "woke cancer", the editorial team deserves the benefit of the doubt for not letting it get out of hand and ruining the overall tone (RomCom with a pretty heavy emphasis on the Com, lest we forget).

 

[MrSkeltal]

Lowkey thought the 3rd prince was gay, but not lesbian...

 

[Ooshi_Somen]

"Are you what they call 'gay'"?
Misha are YOU what they call gay

 

[BerryBean_Lily]

I FORGOT WHAT CHAPTER THIS WAS IN THE LIGHT NOVEL, SAUCE PLEASE?!

 

[Slimereader2]

Honestly i thought he was gay already or he was a woman so Hahahahha one of them is confirmed

 

[DMBLaan99]

As a manga only reader, I think it's safe to say Prince Yuu WAS Male in the game before Rei got isekaied. Between this twist and the bakery having Japanese food not from Rei, and seemed to have had them for years, tells me that there are changes to the "game world" that have happened independently from her interfering. I'm sure the LN has already explained this, but I like to go in only from the manga and make my own theories, lol.

 

[lilymeep]

i knew yuu was my favorite for a reason

 

[FreezeBlue]

Well I'm not surprised since I already get spoiled by my friend that Yu is a girl XD

 

[supernova708]

i wonder what this implies for the Yuu route in the game proper

 

[Doomcard10]

The real question is whether this is gonna be a “woman dressed as a man for society reasons” deal or whether Yuu is trans.