Isekai Walking - Vol. 8 Ch. 70 - Slave Contract

[T-sama]

@T-sama I don't think anyone actually answered your question about doggies, https://mangadex.org/title/b3a9c1f8-93d2-49ba-96e2-84727c1031a6/isekai-ni-otosareta-jouka-wa-kihon . Another Isekai that Haikai is translating.

Thank you very much my kind sir / lady
I guess my question got lost in the discussion

 

[Tuwz]

What manga is that?

This one:
https://mangadex.org/title/b3a9c1f8-93d2-49ba-96e2-84727c1031a6/isekai-ni-otosareta-jouka-wa-kihon

 

[theShear]

I think the worst part is that they start to sound more and more like plantation owners with the amount of bullshit pseudo-science arguments about how "slavery is good for the economy actually" in order to justify it.

Why can't we have a Protagonist that doesn't immediately lose his sense of disgust for human right violations when he transmigrates for once??????

The annoying part is he didn't. He rather obviously disliked it but then the guy suddenly pulled out his explanation "Why Slavery is actually totally good for them" and he actually seemed to buy it ... if he kept his distaste and just played along I would be fine but this thing worms me.

 

[Maiorem]

Look. This is a lie. You cannot say ‘extreme poverty was at about 94%’ because prior to the establishment of capitalism the modern concept of poverty did not yet exist. Modern poverty is directly linked to fiat currencies and their domination over all socio-economic transactions. Conversely, well into the 19th century, the vast majority of all human commerce was done via local currencies, mutual aid and other moneyless exchanges.

Wait, you think capitalism invented the concept of fiat money? Paper money predated the practice of capitalism by centuries. Where do you even get this idea that the vast majority of all human commerce was done via local currencies, mutual aid, and other moneyless exchanges? The concept of debt even predates both capitalism and the use of paper money. How does debt exist if there isn't such a thing as poverty? Debt slavery was even quite common during classical antiquity, which is the time period in Europe between 8th century BC and 5th century AD. Lastly, we can understand the economic situation of the times by reading contemporary records by the people living in those times describing the living conditions and comparing the rich and the poor.

Attempting to make this comparison is impossible precisely because it’s a useless comparison with no historical basis. How are you going to value the lives of a 17th-century Hunanese peasant, who probably used at most 10 paper notes in service of his rentiers, in a way that you could make a useful comparison? It’s simply not possible without extreme difficulty and abstraction.

What do you mean a 17th century Hunanese peasant would have probably used at most 10 paper notes? Paper notes became the only legal tender in China since the 13th century due to a shortage of materials needed to produce coins. That aside, we can easily compare by looking at the cost of living and comparing it to the wages earned. Again, we have written records by ancient writers describing these things, unless you want to claim that capitalism somehow predated the invention of writing.

And the study you linked to is, frankly, historically illiterate. It constantly uses GDP numbers and other modern financial stats that have no correlation to the actual function/behaviour of pre-capitalist and capitalist modes of organization. It would be exactly as useful for me to prescribe that Rome was the most prosperous place in the world because it had modes of currency familiar to us. You can’t attempt to infantilize dozens of other people immediately after pretending the capitalist fantasy of natural progress is somehow historical.

Historically illiterate? You are one to speak. You clearly understand neither economics nor history. All these financial statistics absolutely apply regardless of whether it is a capitalist or non-capitalist mode of organisation, because capitalism does not dictate the existence of money and poverty. Stop pretending that you even know what capitalism is to begin with.

 

[sirmidor]

Claiming that using an incredibly common trope is actually a sign of creativity sure is a stance to take.

I have no idea how you got that from my comment, since it doesn't say that.

 

[Maiorem]

Is the argument "the magical slave contract is totally reasonable, because this fantasy pastiche is referencing historical context, and history had slavery, so it's okay for the author to try and overwrite the protagonist's modern morals with slavery apologia"?

No. The argument is that slavery is inherently amoral; it is how people abused it that it became immoral.

We're not pointing at a history textbook here, or even a work of historical fiction! It's one thing for Vinland Saga to have a discussion of slavery in the context of 11th century England, but its not like Isekai Walking has been making an effort to show the plight of the third estate. The author had infinite choices in how he wanted to structure the society in this work, and he decided, likely without any critical thought because that's just how paint-by-number isekai are structured, to have slavery in it. And then have the balls to try and convince his audience (and his protagonist!) that this structure is not some necessary evil, but in fact a net good for the enslaved.

As I have said, prior to industrialisation and the rise of capitalism, the overwhelmingly vast majority of the world was in extreme poverty, and entering into slavery is in many cases both voluntary and seen as a beneficial trade-off in exchange for one's freedom. You don't even have the balls to consider the counterarguments to your own thinking.

Seriously, where are all you people coming from, where your moral compass is somehow pointing in the direction of "You know what, society is a little too free." "Let's start by someone trying to explain the moral basis for saying that slavery is bad." I dunno, maybe because of a belief in fundamental rights of human beings (of which freedom is one of them)? Perhaps because it degrades an individual's dignity from person to object? Perhaps because it is, in the end, achieved solely through violence or the threat of violence, and the sufferers of that violence receive no recompense for their pain*? Perhaps because despite the assumption of magical safeguards, the potential for abuse is rife? Perhaps because the vast majority of modern individuals have recognized that slavery is intrinsically unethical, and while argumentum ad populum is indeed fallacious, the burden of proof for "slavery is good" is on the author, not the reader!

This idea of a "fundamental rights of human beings" is pure fiction that has absolutely zero objective basis in anything whatsoever. The idea that slavery degrades an individual's dignity from person to object is false as it simply depends on the attitude of the master. In the case of voluntary slaves, it is not due to violence or threat of violence, but rather the desire on the part of the slave to have a better life under the household of the master. The potential for abuse exists in literally every institution and aspect of society; this is no logical reason for anyone to abandon any of these aspects. The burden of proof lies on anyone making any assertion, regardless of whether the assertion is positive or negative. The assertion that slavery is intrinsically unethical is not justified as of yet.

*That is, to distinguish it from other elements of society that are ultimately backed up by a monopoly on force by the state. "Taxation is theft" is meme but its in part true; if you don't pay your taxes you will be violently thrown in jail. But if you do pay your taxes, then those taxes are hypothetically to your net benefit.

And what if those taxes are used to fund terrorism?

 

[CrimsonSix]

This is certainly a strange turn of events.

My thoughts: buying a slave out of desperation would be one thing. The problem is how blatantly contrived it is. The society is so organised as to check if people are really blood siblings, yet it can still let a person (Sora) enter a city with no documentation, and it has no way to handle adoption without documentation except "special" slavery. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[sirmidor]

There is also a world of difference between depicting a world in which slavery exists, and having the protagonist accept and engage with it after a man LITERALLY SELLING SLAVES AND SLAVE CONTRACTS monologues for several pages about how good it is actually.
[...]

If a setting features slavery or, as in your example, a tobacco tax, there will obviously be people supporting it. It would be strange if there weren't. You're advocating a weaker form of the argument of the person I replied to: Instead of not wanting stories to feature elements like slavery at all, you are okay with it only if the story obviously portrays it as evil. I disagree for the same reason as before: It's boring to have that sort of moralizing pressure where some ideas/themes cannot be included unless the reader is instructed how to feel about them. Authors should be free to write whatever stories they wish, and readers should be responsible enough to neither blindly follow what a manga character says nor to blame an author for featuring an idea in a fictional setting that is not acceptable in real life.

 

[djbubbles]

dropping this. it's one thing for your fantasy story to have slaves in it, it's another for you to dedicate entire chapters of mental gymnastics on why slavery is good, actually

 

[Selfisch]

Isekai authors really are doing everything in their power to make excuses for the MC to own slaves 😭

 

[DeOneChester]

Is the argument "the magical slave contract is totally reasonable, because this fantasy pastiche is referencing historical context, and history had slavery, so it's okay for the author to try and overwrite the protagonist's modern morals with slavery apologia"? We're not pointing at a history textbook here, or even a work of historical fiction! It's one thing for Vinland Saga to have a discussion of slavery in the context of 11th century England, but its not like Isekai Walking has been making an effort to show the plight of the third estate. The author had infinite choices in how he wanted to structure the society in this work, and he decided, likely without any critical thought because that's just how paint-by-number isekai are structured, to have slavery in it. And then have the balls to try and convince his audience (and his protagonist!) that this structure is not some necessary evil, but in fact a net good for the enslaved.

Seriously, where are all you people coming from, where your moral compass is somehow pointing in the direction of "You know what, society is a little too free." "Let's start by someone trying to explain the moral basis for saying that slavery is bad." I dunno, maybe because of a belief in fundamental rights of human beings (of which freedom is one of them)? Perhaps because it degrades an individual's dignity from person to object? Perhaps because it is, in the end, achieved solely through violence or the threat of violence, and the sufferers of that violence receive no recompense for their pain*? Perhaps because despite the assumption of magical safeguards, the potential for abuse is rife? Perhaps because the vast majority of modern individuals have recognized that slavery is intrinsically unethical, and while argumentum ad populum is indeed fallacious, the burden of proof for "slavery is good" is on the author, not the reader!

*That is, to distinguish it from other elements of society that are ultimately backed up by a monopoly on force by the state. "Taxation is theft" is meme but its in part true; if you don't pay your taxes you will be violently thrown in jail. But if you do pay your taxes, then those taxes are hypothetically to your net benefit.

I'm half convinced they're entirely full of shit but just get off on the idea of being provocative with their "um acksually, american slavery wasn't that bad" takes lol.

Takes they probably got from PragerU or something. Or from american education systems in the south, which heavily downplay slavery because yes, our schools are biased like that until you get to college.

 

[Romisterie]

They could have used other contract or system other than slavery that has same duties and benefit. Even marriage albeit too early in modern sense but at least the age gap here in small so it is somewhat acceptable.

 

[Nick86]

Isekai authors really are doing everything in their power to make excuses for the MC to own slaves 😭

This is the only part i dislike about it, if you want to use the slave trope just do it without all this explanation for a whole chapter, is not really necessary such a elaborate lore description, a brief summary was enought, but well, was just my personal opinion. Is still a great adaption so far.

 

[fan12vwron]

Uh oh... cringe

 

[Goldenzeal]

Virtually everyone agrees that slavery is inhumane and degrading because of the historical stigma of the American slave system.

Having power over other men and women have historically easily leads to corruption when injustice can easily be hidden away.
But slavery is not inherently bad or evil, Absolute and unchecked power is.
It is a issue we struggle with even today, they just got ALOT better at hiding it from you.

The slave agrees to the slave contract? They make it sound like employment. What alternative does the debt slave, criminal slave, or war slave have- execution or starvation or homelessness? That's not much of a choice, is it?

a choice between two bad things is still a choice, just a very bad one.
to quote Bioshock "A man chooses, a slave obeys"

When someone is faced with a choice where all available choices seem to be bad.
It does still allow you the (sometimes illusory) freedom to choice what consequences or outcomes you prefer.

In situations where all choices appear to be undesirable , it can be more constructive to view the decision-making process as a matter of choosing the option that is perceived to be the least harmful or that best suits your personal values.

a fair number of slaves killed themselves if their escape attempts failed.
Because they knew that whatever punishment would come of it were less preferable then a quick death.
If your going to die from torture when captured, why not kill yourself ( and sometimes your family too ) quickly instead ?

If you disregard the freedom of choice, even if the only other option is the final one in death.
Then you could make the same argument for things like paying taxes and regular employment.
Most people are born into a society with a unwritten social obligation where they are required to work in order to survive.
So how is that any different from slavery ?

...yeah this is such an annoying trope. Slavery is Slavery. Why it's some Isekai thing to somehow make it "less bad" by giving it a strangely idealized and extremely unrealistic image to it is something I will never understand. Is this some contractual Isekai Author obligation?

Slavery, just like the multiple forms of governing a country has taken on multiple forms in our history.
Some better, some REALLY REALLY BAD.
But the difference between slavery and slavery is massive.
There are still 100+ countries today that effectively allow slavery in limited form today.

When most people talk about slavery they think of the recent ( historically at least ) American slave system.
And the horror story it turned out to be thanks to racism among other reasons.

But there have been times where Slavery was nothing more than the equivalent of a house servant.
who was paid for their work and had a house and a job they could quit with enough notice ahead of time.

Some Roman slaves voluntary sold themselves into slavery slaves back in the day to get a better life.
And the very best slaves even had a higher standard of living than most free individual of the time.

It has generally also been frowned upon to mistreat slaves thorough history, even if it might not always been illegal.
Slaves and human lives has rarely been cheap outside of wartime. ( in which everyone's life sucks anyway for other reasons )
Its a bad management of "property" and squandering your wealth have never been in style as far as i know...

Manga will bend over backwards doing flips and summersaults to whitewash slavery. I'm so sick of this shit.
Americans absolutely did not invent beating, raping, and murdering the human beings they owned. Get fucking real.

They sure did not, the just perfected it and planted it safely in recent memory.
That does not mean all slavery in history are terrible and inhumane at all times.
Let alone in a fantasy world where anything can happen.
However humane slavery is not a pipe dream and do exist in our history.

Not all slavery were equally terrible and there has been cases where slavery was fairly decent ( at least on paper. )
Corruption tend to throw a spanner into most things however and slave rights were not always enforced...
But that is also nothing new either...

 

[T-sama]

This one:
https://mangadex.org/title/b3a9c1f8-93d2-49ba-96e2-84727c1031a6/isekai-ni-otosareta-jouka-wa-kihon

Thanks o7

 

[theShear]

Slavery, just like the multiple forms of governing a country has taken on multiple forms in our history.
Some better, some REALLY REALLY BAD.
But the difference between slavery and slavery is massive.
There are still 100+ countries today that effectively allow slavery in limited form today.

When most people talk about slavery they think of the recent ( historically at least ) American slave system.
And the horror story it turned out to be thanks to racism among other reasons.

But there have been times where Slavery was nothing more than the equivalent of a house servant.
who was paid for their work and had a house and a job they could quit with enough notice ahead of time.

Some Roman slaves voluntary sold themselves into slavery slaves back in the day to get a better life.
And the very best slaves even had a higher standard of living than most free individual of the time.

It has generally also been frowned upon to mistreat slaves thorough history, even if it might not always been illegal.
Slaves and human lives has rarely been cheap outside of wartime. ( in which everyone's life sucks anyway for other reasons )
Its a bad management of "property" and squandering your wealth have never been in style as far as i know...

I think most people here know all that. The fact is still Slavery is still at the core a thing where a living, sentient being becomes someone's possession and is rightly frowned upon. It's a comparison between a Nasty Hay fever and Cancer. While one is considerable worse than the other both are a Sickness and "bad". It is Illegal in "most" civilized countries for a reason ... though there are no lacking attempts to just slap a new label on it.
Honestly I usually don't say anything about the Slave thing in Isekai Manga's because these days it seems to go hand in hand to my personal irritation but I take a line when the Manga somehow tries to sell it as something "good" for the Slave. It never is, it never will be. Hell it even undermines it's own point in it's example Image. Starving the Slave is perfectly okay! Just don't let it die. Honestly I mentioned it above in another answer, I don't mind if the People "in that world" believe it ... what bothers me is that it seemed to me that the MC, after being VERY uncomfortable with it beforehand then seemed to buy the explanation.
Honestly I enjoy the Manga and I will choke this down but I still say this bit I really don't like.

 

[T-sama]

Honestly I mentioned it above in another answer, I don't mind if the People "in that world" believe it ... what bothers me is that it seemed to me that the MC, after being VERY uncomfortable with it beforehand then seemed to buy the explanation.

I'll only reply to this part, as I said before I suspect the author intention is basically make Sora, and by proxy japanese readers, feel better about it, like, "here, slavery actually isn't that bad, so don't think too much about it", accusing the author of trying to sell slavery as a good thing is pure nonsense really, all the explanation is just to make the reader not feel bad about it, it's just that japanese readers know they're reading trash for escapism, so they can swallow virtually anything, that doesn't really work with western readers unless you learn to stop questioning the plot.

It's kinda of a shame that japanese writers always force themselves to include every single cliche possible in a genre, which in isekai genre it means pseudo medieval setting has to have slavery, which unfortunately in the long run made slavery a staple of the genre, a few story asides where slavery is actually a plot point makes sense having it, and they rarely portray slavery as good, all other stories with slavery though? They have it just because it's supposed to be there.

Honestly I enjoy the Manga and I will choke this down but I still say this bit I really don't like.

Honestly? I've seen so much shit in manga that I either dislike or at least question for being stupid, that I just gave up on questioning it or caring as a whole, that's just the way japanese writers do things, it will never change, no point in let it affect me since it's a exercise in futility.

Unfortunately for many mangas you need to at least partially be like this gif

 

[theShear]

Honestly? I've seen so much shit in manga that I either dislike or at least question for being stupid, that I just gave up on questioning it or caring as a whole, that's just the way japanese writers do things, it will never change, no point in let it affect me since it's a exercise in futility.

...I hate that I immediately thought of a few manga that would fit like a glove.

 

[T-sama]

...I hate that I immediately thought of a few manga that would fit like a glove.

 hugs I can imagine, sometimes you just have to be a Elsa and let it go, let go of your brain and enjoy the show.

May I get link for those mangas though? I can't help but be curious about them, if you don't mind of course