Kami Neko Mii-chan to Neko Youhin Shoukanshi no Isekai Funtouki - Vol. 2 Ch. 11 - Arrival at Quinto
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2018
- Messages
- 2,319
@sherlock0790 you mean like in https://mangadex.org/title/22017/manu
ke-na-fps-player-ga-isekai-e-ochita-baai
ke-na-fps-player-ga-isekai-e-ochita-baai
Group Leader
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2018
- Messages
- 333
dropped, I guess
I have to trash on the gun a bit too.
Leaving the trigger guard alone for a second, why the heck is it a revolver? He's going to use his wind magic, not gunpowder, so there's literally no reason to use this style (the original point of which was to give multiple preloaded breaches; then with cartridges, it was a familiar mechanism for a repeating handgun before semiautomatic actions became a thing). He'd have better functionality and reliability by using an underfed magazine (heck, use a removable magazine like modern weapons do). The trigger could then be used to unlock and open the breach from below to allow the next round in (knock it loose from a catch or something), and a return spring could then close it.
Squeeze the trigger to load a round, do the magic to blow the bullet out the front, repeat.
See, I spent all of five minutes coming up with a better system than what seems to be on that piece of paper. If we were to pretend that more time and testing would be put into the fantasy product, and that the magic would always be about the same power, then you could easily make it semiautomatic, drop the trigger entirely, time the action to accept the next round before closing, and run the whole thing on just the magic, only requiring a manual load on the first round...
Why does no one know how and why guns work the way they do? Making them fancy and modern requires finesse in engineering, but the basic function really isn't that complicated.
Is this how HEMA nerds feel when they see blatantly stupid weapon designs in fantasy?
Leaving the trigger guard alone for a second, why the heck is it a revolver? He's going to use his wind magic, not gunpowder, so there's literally no reason to use this style (the original point of which was to give multiple preloaded breaches; then with cartridges, it was a familiar mechanism for a repeating handgun before semiautomatic actions became a thing). He'd have better functionality and reliability by using an underfed magazine (heck, use a removable magazine like modern weapons do). The trigger could then be used to unlock and open the breach from below to allow the next round in (knock it loose from a catch or something), and a return spring could then close it.
Squeeze the trigger to load a round, do the magic to blow the bullet out the front, repeat.
See, I spent all of five minutes coming up with a better system than what seems to be on that piece of paper. If we were to pretend that more time and testing would be put into the fantasy product, and that the magic would always be about the same power, then you could easily make it semiautomatic, drop the trigger entirely, time the action to accept the next round before closing, and run the whole thing on just the magic, only requiring a manual load on the first round...
Why does no one know how and why guns work the way they do? Making them fancy and modern requires finesse in engineering, but the basic function really isn't that complicated.
Is this how HEMA nerds feel when they see blatantly stupid weapon designs in fantasy?
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2018
- Messages
- 2,053
@sholum
Which is made all the more ironic that the Japanese are one of the most gun-curious people on the planet. Don't believe me? There's a reason why firing ranges catered to Japanese tourists are a thing on Guam.
@defianze
@stretch22
I've never gotten this. To me, magic is extremely god damn boring because most magic systems are "don't think about it" level or "it's magic circles, yaddayadda, we're not really going to explain how it works on a physics level" type stuff. And add in the typical isekai angle of breaking the already lackluster system and it's even more boring. When it comes to combat, however, it's nice to be able to aim. Firearms or firearm-with-magical-substitution fit that very well. And are rather convenient dedicated tools. And, in this case, aren't a dead giveaway.
This is why I liked Release That Witch (moreso the WN than the manga) so much and Gun-Ota (...the WN/LN, the manga is god awful) to a lesser extent: Magic is used to make technology that wouldn't be possible at that stage possible. And I'm sorry, but a single Maxim machine gun which is hardly the pinnacle of firearms technology wins hands down against magic unless you get into the chuunishit/wuxia nonsense of a single dude blowing away an entire army/continent which just makes my eyes glaze over from boredom and lack of originality/creativity to begin with.
As far as Japan goes, it's because the closest that anyone can come to seeing a firearm and how it works is in video games, movies or a badly translated Wikipedia article (and readily accessible Japanese-language knowledge base isn't really a thing for firearms, whereas in English it's common place). Or taking the airsoft approach and "magic internal box make pew pew pew when I pull trigger." Japan's weapon laws are draconian AF (you mentioned HEMA - do you know that the Japanese only allow certification and legal ownership of katanas? Technically speaking, no non-katana is legal for private ownership and is basically on the level of having a rocket launcher. And only katanas made in specific ways or by licensed swordsmiths will be certified. So if the Queen of England wanted to gift a ceremonial or historical sword to a private Japanese citizen, it would technically not be able to be done under the letter of the law.)
Which is made all the more ironic that the Japanese are one of the most gun-curious people on the planet. Don't believe me? There's a reason why firing ranges catered to Japanese tourists are a thing on Guam.
@defianze
Kinda is. Firearms are the great equalizer of society. And like magic or some sword that went flying out of someone's hand can't accidentally kill someone...
@stretch22
I've never gotten this. To me, magic is extremely god damn boring because most magic systems are "don't think about it" level or "it's magic circles, yaddayadda, we're not really going to explain how it works on a physics level" type stuff. And add in the typical isekai angle of breaking the already lackluster system and it's even more boring. When it comes to combat, however, it's nice to be able to aim. Firearms or firearm-with-magical-substitution fit that very well. And are rather convenient dedicated tools. And, in this case, aren't a dead giveaway.
This is why I liked Release That Witch (moreso the WN than the manga) so much and Gun-Ota (...the WN/LN, the manga is god awful) to a lesser extent: Magic is used to make technology that wouldn't be possible at that stage possible. And I'm sorry, but a single Maxim machine gun which is hardly the pinnacle of firearms technology wins hands down against magic unless you get into the chuunishit/wuxia nonsense of a single dude blowing away an entire army/continent which just makes my eyes glaze over from boredom and lack of originality/creativity to begin with.
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2019
- Messages
- 901
hate the gun possibility / probability. I know it's an adventure, but with characters like mii it really doesn't seem to fit this manga. This author is just copying from other mangas rather writing on his own isn't he. Wonder what responses if any they are getting on the official site.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2019
- Messages
- 366
@definitionofinsanity yeah, I get your point.
but, just look at it from another viewpoint.
all what you need to do just point a gun on a person and pull the trigger.
a perfect weapon for a lazy and talentless thugs. literally making them equal to all those swordsmans/mages/archers/etc who diligently spent a years of their life to become who they are and to be in high demand.
yeah, you can kill a person stabbing his neck with a sharp stick, but to kill a person using magic you need to learn magic first, and its not as easy as "point and pull".
thats why in my opinion, taking into account that its fantasy world of sword and magic and not ours, a gun is not equalizing everyone, it's nullifying an efforts of others.
and taking as an example Release that Witch is not really appropriate imo. I doubt that this kid with a kitten could bear all the consequences as Roland did. and this world of fluff and coziness is nowhere near the situation what was in RtW.
just imagined a scene, where a goblin blows up Heros brains with a shotgun
whoa O_O
but, just look at it from another viewpoint.
all what you need to do just point a gun on a person and pull the trigger.
a perfect weapon for a lazy and talentless thugs. literally making them equal to all those swordsmans/mages/archers/etc who diligently spent a years of their life to become who they are and to be in high demand.
yeah, you can kill a person stabbing his neck with a sharp stick, but to kill a person using magic you need to learn magic first, and its not as easy as "point and pull".
thats why in my opinion, taking into account that its fantasy world of sword and magic and not ours, a gun is not equalizing everyone, it's nullifying an efforts of others.
and taking as an example Release that Witch is not really appropriate imo. I doubt that this kid with a kitten could bear all the consequences as Roland did. and this world of fluff and coziness is nowhere near the situation what was in RtW.
just imagined a scene, where a goblin blows up Heros brains with a shotgun
whoa O_O
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2018
- Messages
- 2,053
@defianze
Wuxia-ism can take a seat. When you can hand a fire stick to literally anybody that is capable of holding it and can train them on it for a bit to hit and kill even the most powerful knight, you no longer have the ability of a strong few to rule over the majority of people. Nobility and tyranny and feudalism fly out the window and no longer is someone cast aside just because they don't have the "right kind" of magic ability or ability to use it as well. Everyone is on more equal footing and a more equal playing field.
And, because of this, it incentivizes more people to work together and co-operate because everyone has the same potential input and because numbers will be more useful than individual power. It's a wake-up call to elitism and tyranny by a select few.
The same thing happened in our own, real world history. Knights that thought themselves superior because they had better training, blood, lineage, family, ability, strength, ect. all worked hard to achieve that. No doubt. And nobles created an absolute hellhole for people because of it. Then came the firearm. Which, while clumsy and little better (and often worse) than a bow or crossbow at first, let even the lowliest abused and trampled peasant that no rights suddenly be able to put down even the best knight in the kingdom at a hundred paces without even breaking a sweat. That is an equalizer. Why? Because without it, that knight would absolutely fucking annihilate that peasant and the several dozen other peasants surrounding him because pitchforks don't work too well against an armored walking murder machine that doesn't value the life of mere commoners when the king orders them dead.
[Oh, and as an aside, today bows and crossbows are thought of "more honorable" as guns... But in antiquity that was VERY MUCH NOT the case. Multiple Popes called for the end of using crossbows and bows (against fellow Christians, anyways... before doing it themselves, anyways, with Pope Gregory IX supposedly employing mounted crossbowmen later on). And while the English pulled off a small battlefield miracle with Crecy... the French thought it was HORRIBLY dishonorable and were disgusted with the English behavior. And they weren't alone. Despite learning archery, as this manga actually points out, requires training especially for muscle in order to be able to use higher poundage warbows that actually were required for warfare... It wasn't universally accepted as an honorable way of conducting warfare. Make no mistake, the same view you have about guns would be shared by knights and nobles of the pre-and-early middle ages about archers and crossbows.]
Well, if it was that easy, we wouldn't need training for police and military to use said firearms.
---
thatsthepoint.jpg
Wuxia-ism can take a seat. When you can hand a fire stick to literally anybody that is capable of holding it and can train them on it for a bit to hit and kill even the most powerful knight, you no longer have the ability of a strong few to rule over the majority of people. Nobility and tyranny and feudalism fly out the window and no longer is someone cast aside just because they don't have the "right kind" of magic ability or ability to use it as well. Everyone is on more equal footing and a more equal playing field.
And, because of this, it incentivizes more people to work together and co-operate because everyone has the same potential input and because numbers will be more useful than individual power. It's a wake-up call to elitism and tyranny by a select few.
The same thing happened in our own, real world history. Knights that thought themselves superior because they had better training, blood, lineage, family, ability, strength, ect. all worked hard to achieve that. No doubt. And nobles created an absolute hellhole for people because of it. Then came the firearm. Which, while clumsy and little better (and often worse) than a bow or crossbow at first, let even the lowliest abused and trampled peasant that no rights suddenly be able to put down even the best knight in the kingdom at a hundred paces without even breaking a sweat. That is an equalizer. Why? Because without it, that knight would absolutely fucking annihilate that peasant and the several dozen other peasants surrounding him because pitchforks don't work too well against an armored walking murder machine that doesn't value the life of mere commoners when the king orders them dead.
[Oh, and as an aside, today bows and crossbows are thought of "more honorable" as guns... But in antiquity that was VERY MUCH NOT the case. Multiple Popes called for the end of using crossbows and bows (against fellow Christians, anyways... before doing it themselves, anyways, with Pope Gregory IX supposedly employing mounted crossbowmen later on). And while the English pulled off a small battlefield miracle with Crecy... the French thought it was HORRIBLY dishonorable and were disgusted with the English behavior. And they weren't alone. Despite learning archery, as this manga actually points out, requires training especially for muscle in order to be able to use higher poundage warbows that actually were required for warfare... It wasn't universally accepted as an honorable way of conducting warfare. Make no mistake, the same view you have about guns would be shared by knights and nobles of the pre-and-early middle ages about archers and crossbows.]
From my point of view: if goblins were intelligent enough to invent a shotgun where you're just walking around with some fantasy armor and swinging a sword and occasionally shouting "Fireball!"... maybe don't mess with the significantly more technologically advanced goblins that obviously aren't merely just savages and do some trade with them instead. It takes a lot of resources in such a setting to produce a firearm. Meaning that maybe the "Heroes" aren't so heroic if they're just killing goblins because "green savages need to be put down" if their society is advanced enough to be producing shotguns.
@definitionofinsanity
I'm perfectly aware of the draconian weapons laws in Japan. One of the many law related reasons that I have no interest in living there permanently, though I have several good friends and occasional work in Japan. But it's not just the Japanese; ask the average non-gun-owning American, even, and you still get absolutely ridiculous notions about the operation and effectiveness of firearms (we have almost constant national debate over these very misconceptions). I bet there are even gun owners that don't really understand firearms beyond how to use them... Which is strange to me, because they're not that complicated, and learning about them is interesting.
As for your comments regarding bows being dishonorable... that's only by the people on the other end (pretty sure the English didn't think longbows were dishonorable). All ranged weapons got this stigma when used to effect by a civilization's enemy. Even slingers were considered cowards.
Firearms got the same treatment when they first started being used in Europe.
Even today, I hear people saying that war wouldn't be as bad if we just went back to fighting face to face (very not true, but okay).
It's a persistent thought. Kinda interesting to think about.
I'm perfectly aware of the draconian weapons laws in Japan. One of the many law related reasons that I have no interest in living there permanently, though I have several good friends and occasional work in Japan. But it's not just the Japanese; ask the average non-gun-owning American, even, and you still get absolutely ridiculous notions about the operation and effectiveness of firearms (we have almost constant national debate over these very misconceptions). I bet there are even gun owners that don't really understand firearms beyond how to use them... Which is strange to me, because they're not that complicated, and learning about them is interesting.
As for your comments regarding bows being dishonorable... that's only by the people on the other end (pretty sure the English didn't think longbows were dishonorable). All ranged weapons got this stigma when used to effect by a civilization's enemy. Even slingers were considered cowards.
Firearms got the same treatment when they first started being used in Europe.
Even today, I hear people saying that war wouldn't be as bad if we just went back to fighting face to face (very not true, but okay).
It's a persistent thought. Kinda interesting to think about.
Similar threads
