Kannou Sensei - Ch. 29.2

[UnknownAry0n]

I agree with @Weoooo, the bedroom scene in this chapter felt like going through the motions, with everything obligatory according to genre conventions. This is especially apparent in contrast with chapter 15. There, the "No" on page 16 has the context of Yukino actively participating in getting undressed in earlier pages. In this chapter, the repeated "No" and the emphatic "I said no!" being ignored by Rokurou seemed weird and out-of-place.

I wonder why it seems out of place? It's because it is both figuratively and literally not she's saying. The first "no!" you're referring to from chapter 15 is actually just a "や" (ya) hiragana, without any exclamation. The repeated "no" and "I said no!" you're referring to from this chapter are all "だめ" (da-me), which is not only not the same as "no" but also shows her repeating the same thing instead of saying different phrases. I hope you can figure out how this changes the meaning on your own.
Also, the "you're going to leave me waiting?" line is actually "おあずけってこと?", which is literally him asking her permission again. A literal translation would be something like "wait(pending permission) you mean to say?". "お預け" or "おあずけ" is a complex word which means to withhold something pending permission. You use it when you're punishing children, or disciplining a pet, or if you're withholding something from yourself on some condition such as one might do when on a diet. It is for something that exists, but is forbidden from you.
Her reply is nothing, not even the "だめ" she repeated a half dozen times before, which in context is answer enough.

This is precisely why in my previous post I said to show the work to a native speaker in its original language.
It is impossible to address all these ridiculous complaints as it is akin to teaching someone to run who has barely learned to crawl, hopefully you can at least use this post to help yourself learn to walk.

 

[Weoooo]

I wonder why it seems out of place? It's because it is both figuratively and literally not she's saying. The first "no!" you're referring to from chapter 15 is actually just a "や" (ya) hiragana, without any exclamation. The repeated "no" and "I said no!" you're referring to from this chapter are all "だめ" (da-me), which is not only not the same as "no" but also shows her repeating the same thing instead of saying different phrases. I hope you can figure out how this changes the meaning on your own.
Also, the "you're going to leave me waiting?" line is actually "おあずけってこと?", which is literally him asking her permission again. A literal translation would be something like "wait(pending permission) you mean to say?". "お預け" or "おあずけ" is a complex word which means to withhold something pending permission. You use it when you're punishing children, or disciplining a pet, or if you're withholding something from yourself on some condition such as one might do when on a diet. It is for something that exists, but is forbidden from you.
Her reply is nothing, not even the "だめ" she repeated a half dozen times before, which in context is answer enough.

This is precisely why in my previous post I said to show the work to a native speaker in its original language.
It is impossible to address all these ridiculous complaints as it is akin to teaching someone to run who has barely learned to crawl, hopefully you can at least use this post to help yourself learn to walk.

I understand this comment felt right to you. I need you to understand, fundamentally, that it's wrong, as well as how and why.

1: Your understanding of the text comes from directly reading the raws as a native/educated speaker. I am not that. You literally can't call my interpretation incorrect because of information I did not have access to, that's not how criticism works. What you're doing here is critiquing the translation and not my reaction. My reading is entirely justified based on the text I have. Getting upset over "ridiculous complaints" that are refuted by a specific reading of the raw text is crazytown stuff. This isn't a religous text that I should read in the original language before I decide to live by it, it's a story I'm reading a translation of. If you have to go to the first language to refute a reading, we're no longer actually talking about the same story! Instead, you're pointing out a nuance in the original language that I'm not aware of and doesn't, like... show up in the translation, and saying I should've known and my complaints are ridiculous because of it. Nutso, dawg.

2: In 15, when presented with evidence of her hesitation, he retreats and channels that desire into writing. In 29, when she hesitates, he pressures through what seems, to me, almost like passive aggression with the clarified translation. Asking "will you deny me permission" implies that her lack of consent is withholding something from him. This is pressure. That she answers with silence is not definitive. It's the definition of ambiguous.

3: Your fundamental text here is justifying why this scene isn't as rapey as I seem to think it is. That's honestly not the problem I have with it. I understood the wordplay(and understand it better now, thank you) and get the idea of non-verbal consent. I made it totally clear that I'm not flashing a PROBLEMATIC sign.
I'm mad because this undermines the arc of their connection. Yukino was initially unsure of their whole deal because she was sure he was married with kids. When she learns he's not, she freaks out and runs away. We still don't know why that is! But, she's slowly drawn to him because of his romantic heart. He relentlessly pursues, yes, but she laughs at him feeding the birds and she likes how he is with kids and he helps with things and says stuff about how wanting to protect her means wanting her to face danger, so he doesn't want that. He shows up at her house when the power goes out to see if she's okay. She's not okay! She has a problem with the dark due to childhood trauma!
Her getting into bed with him shouldn't have been a moment where he pressured her into sex. It should have been a moment where he remembers the story SHE JUST FUCKING TOLD HIM and only cares about her comfort. Why? Because it would've been confirmation that she was right to trust him with both being vulnerable about her past experiences and getting close to him now when they are isolated and she's in a state that makes her feel uneasy. That would be consistent with his actions in 15, even if the language used in the chapter seems similar. It would show that he's safe and primarily interested in her wellbeing instead of seeing her as a sexual object. Like he keeps fucking saying, to her, that he is.
But instead, we get a "wouldn't it be hot if." Just so much wasted foundation.

 

[UnknownAry0n]

I understand this comment felt right to you. I need you to understand, fundamentally, that it's wrong, as well as how and why.

Instead of trying to read between the lines of what I am saying or inventing emotions for me, read the words themselves instead of fighting with ideas you have invented. If you really must know, I am bemused and slightly disappointed.
I am not trying to disagree with you. I am trying to point you and other people reading this forum toward a better understanding of the manga.

This is a Japanese manga for a Japanese adult audience.
When you find that something does not make sense, your first instinct should not be to criticise the work as inconsistent or inadequate, your instinct should be that you missed something or have incomplete information.
After all, on some level we all have an incomplete understanding. This is humility.
You are indeed correct that we are not reading the same story, yet somehow despite understanding this basic thing you make no effort to engage with the work as the author intends it to be, a Japanese manga for a Japanese adult audience.
I'm not saying you "should have known". I'm saying you have not made an attempt to truly know in the first place.
I have no idea where this inclination toward assuming the author is incompetent comes from. Perhaps having been exposed to too much low quality art? Maybe someone else can answer this.

I will once again refer to my original comment:
Show the manga to a Japanese person in its original language if you truly wish to understand that which does not make sense to you.
Alternatively, if you aren't the social sort, learn some basic Japanese and study a bit of Japanese culture. Or do both, whatever works for you.
Hopefully readers will find this advice useful when they encounter something in a work that isn't intended for them that doesn't seem right.
Throwing more and more interpretation based on fundamental misunderstanding at me or other people here is a waste of both of our time.
I have nothing more to say on the subject, for obvious reasons.

 

[Weoooo]

Instead of trying to read between the lines of what I am saying or inventing emotions for me, read the words themselves instead of fighting with ideas you have invented. If you really must know, I am bemused and slightly disappointed.
I am not trying to disagree with you. I am trying to point you and other people reading this forum toward a better understanding of the manga.

You may not have anything more to say, but I sure do!

I figured this would happen because we're engaging with the fiction from fundamentally different places. You're looking at it as a cultural artifact(examine its native language, look at its context within that culture, understand the intricacies of the wordplay), while I'm looking at it as a translated story and critiquing the characters and ideas contained within that. I can't do the former. I know I can't do the former, which is why I am relying on a translation! I think you missed what I was saying about this, too. I didn't assume the author was incompetent, I was saying that if I need to go to the original text to properly understand the story, as you indicated I should, you are critiquing the translation. If I read a translation and don't know what's going on, I am not to blame! The translation is.

My point was this: it's not that I "don't understand" what's happening. I wasn't confused, although there were some intricacies that I missed. Nor is my point that the author is bad at her job, although words like "inconsistent" and saying things like "should" denote a level of objectivity that their connotation in this context doesn't. This sort of critique can't be objective, I can't be saying that she's bad at her job, I can only be saying that I disagree with her choices. I wasn't saying she made an objective mistake. I'm saying the decisions she made are ones I don't like, and have outlined why I don't like them. If the translation made errors that entirely changed the actions and characters, then a reading in the original language would address my points. But from what I can grasp from your message, they didn't.

So what's the point of doing that? Well, to explore what character choices feel good, feel justified, and feel consistent. I heavily dislike this choice because I see it as a betrayal of his character for a rather useless beat. We already know he's into Yukino. We already know she's kinda into him. We learn nothing about either character, and it comes at the cost of moral integrity, thematic resonance, and the potential for a much more interesting scene where we learn fucking something or have the characters change in some way other than how the audience has to perceive their actions. Although maybe this is the turn where Rokuro becomes a FuckFreak and we stop rooting for him? I donno!