Kanojo ni Naritai Kimi to Boku

[AnonDePlume]

@mikegnesium I’m just arguing the part where you say sexual attraction is inherent to romance. While it does apply to a lot of people, it simply doesn’t apply to some people. Also, I think the attraction she feels for Akira is more an example of ludus than eros.

If you really want to break it down to it’s most clinical form, lust is fueled by estrogen and testosterone, attraction is created by norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin, whereas attachment (which is the love aspect) operates on oxytocin and vasopressin. It’s just that some people don’t operate on the first stage and have to start at the second stage. People probably have the misconception that sex and love are inherently tied together because a bunch of oxytocin is produced through intercourse, but oxytocin is produced in other ways, so sex isn’t necessary in a romantic relationship. Maybe for some people, just not all.

Also, y’know, Belle? From Beauty and the Beast? Haven’t you seen that? I could believe it if you haven’t seen it, but I refuse to believe that you haven’t even heard of it.

Also, there isn’t anything you can say to convince me otherwise, because I’m one of those people who don’t feel sexual attraction. On a good day, the most I feel about sex is ambivalence (on a bad day, the chest bursters from Alien look like a more natural, less grotesque form of procreation than sexual intercourse from my perspective, without any hint of hyperbole or exaggeration), but I’m still able to feel romantic attraction. I was still able to have a crush on someone and liked them in a different way than other people and would like to go on dates with them, I just didn’t want sex.

 

[AnonDePlume]

@RaimundoBruno I think cross dressing as a manga genre just refers to someone dressing in gendered clothes opposite of what their gender actually is. As a social construct, I have no idea.

 

[totallynotmike]

Also, I think the attraction she feels for Akira is more an example of ludus than eros.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

f you really want to break it down to it’s most clinical form, lust is fueled by estrogen and testosterone, attraction is created by norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin, whereas attachment (which is the love aspect) operates on oxytocin and vasopressin [...]

Neat, if not oversimplified summary. That said, from my point of view, it isn't particularly useful here, cause even if things could be broken down to those few hormones and neural proteins, you probably still would have to go with their combinations (as you alluded to, their role isn't isn't limited to pair bonding mechanism - even with my limited knowledge I can tell that oxytocin is present every instance a positive social connection is formed). So if you lack one or two of them, it would be reasonable to think that significant difference in qualia arises - while I may believe you when you say that attraction you feel is "romantic" in nature (and it may be, cause I have very little idea how to patch it together with sex preference - I assume it does matter ; on the other hand, everyone treats their male and female friends differently ), it probably would've turned out alien for majority of people (>=99%) if the feeling was to be transplanted to a person with more regular biochemical makeup.

Now - it's a what if, but it's been a what if fest for a while now - I do believe that such person would describe "your" attraction as something different then.

In the end, it's an issue of what sets apart romance from a very deep friendship (and for bonus points, is romantic friendship true outside of fiction). My contestation is that when sexual element dies or isn't present, the relationship transforms to (or is more accurately described as) something like or close the second (going by majority's frame of reference).

Also, y’know, Belle? From Beauty and the Beast?

I do, I just thought it was really weird and pointless thing to bring up.

 

[EvelynIsGone]

this whole argument is stupid and has progressed far beyond its original purpose. the manga is about a girl likes a girl (who happens to be trans) therefore it's girl's love. doesn't matter reasoning or context.

 

[AnonDePlume]

Now - it's a what if, but it's been a what if fest for a while now - I do believe that such person would describe "your" attraction as something different then.

Not likely. They'd probably agree on it being romantic attraction with the only difference being that they'd actually want the sex.

 

[totallynotmike]

Not likely. They'd probably agree on it being romantic attraction with the only difference being that they'd actually want the sex.

I really doubt it. Not getting "the sex" is as alien to me as intercourse itself is to you. Just because we're using same word to refer to something doesn't indicate we mean the same thing.

this whole argument is stupid

Just noticed the Shoujo Ai tag, that's a new addition isn't it? Nice

Uh. You guys, in this and every similar thread.

 

[Paradoxicull]

@mikegnesium have you only read the first chapter? The most recent update clearly states that the romance is yuri. Very explicitly so, in fact. The author has taken time in the story to define the romance as a girl being attracted to another girl, so it should be tagged as yuri.

 

[Paradoxicull]

Oh, and as a lesbian, you'd damn well better believe I want trans girls in my girls love stories. Honestly speaking they are some of the most interesting and compelling stories in the genre. Genitalia be damned, cute girls being cute is cute.

 

[totallynotmike]

so it should be tagged as yuri.

If you feel about it that strongly, start a new thread and summon overlords there to know what they think. None of you people can even do that much? Alternatively, if you're "seriously bothered" or "concerned" by things as they are, you can always fuck off to dynasty reader.

Oh, and as a lesbian [...]

Hahaha.

 

[Paradoxicull]

You may not have noticed this, but this is the official thread for the manga. I guess the issue here is just that you can't read to begin with. Unfortunate, but explains why you can think this doesn't deserve the yuri tag when the mangaka has explicitly stated in their work that it's a lesbian romance. It's not even subtext; there are several precious pages dedicated to making it clear that readers know that this is girls love.

 

[dancingoncrocodiles]

@mikegnesium go play outside for a while, it will distract you from your strong feelings about tags on a manga reader site ^.^

 

[totallynotmike]

You may not have noticed this, but this is the official thread for the manga.

It's an issue of what the owner wants to do with the site. It's not up to you, the readers, or any other kind of offended minority to decide whether intuitive tag definitions that worked themselves out throughout the past twenty years by unspoken communal agreement should be abandoned in lieu of recent explosion of gender hysteria.

So instead of being a bunch of bitching grandstanding idiots, I suggested for you whiners to bring up your case to development team in separate thread in the appropriate forum's section, instead of jumping at every opportunity to flash your virtue cards or write about yourselves each time new crossdressing manga is uploaded to the site.

I guess the issue here is just that you can't read to begin with.

Even your insults are boring. You should be ashamed.

 

[Letheliah]

@RaimundoBruno

2. I believe Mike is just ignoring (erasing?) ace people that despite not interested in sex still enter romantic relationships with others including non-ace ones.

It makes me happy that there are people that recognize asexual/aromantic relationships, as that philosophy was the model by which I was trying to make my case! I highly encourage anyone looking to learn about themselves to separate their romantic attraction from their sexual attraction when examining their orientations, and even contemplate what platonic (friendly) attraction means for them; for many people sexual and romantic are the same, but reality is more diverse than just the romanticized heteronormative (meaning our *culture's push for love being defined as a sexual cishet romance) relationships presented to us.

_{*I'm saying this from an American perspective.} ​

 

[Letheliah]

I've asked the current scanlator for clarification on the tags, and they confirmed that the Crossdressing tag is in place for Hime's decision to crossdress rather than for Akira's wish to present female, so for everyone worried it was direct disrespect for Akira's presentation, no worries. It's totally valid to imagine it was disrespect, but I promise Hachimitsu Scans are super dope and I highly recommend checking out the other projects they worked on if you like this story!

Mike, if this entire pushback started because you believe I misgendered Hime I wish you had taken the time to read and see the context of what I wrote previously, because Hime is probably the most fascinating character for me and I recognize the mangaka's desire to write her as ambiguous. In fact it's Hime's discovery of herself through Akira's transition that makes me wish we had a broader "LGBT+" theme tag available for stories focusing on queer realities like this.
However if I'm not misunderstanding what I'm reading and your argument remains that it can't be a girl's love story because the main female lead, Hime, is in love with her trans*female friend, Akira, specifically BECAUSE Akira was born male, and you can't understand how anyone could be attracted to that, then you are wrong and that is exactly the transphobic fears I wanted to address when I made my first comment; it is invalidating towards transgendered identities and hurtful, and I think it'd be better for everyone if you stopped sharing it.
Yes there is a case for Hime being a litany of other queer orientations besides lesbian, and those are very valid points to make too. (I personally read Hime as demiromantic due to her only having eyes for Akira.) However among those labels IS the lesbian orientation for the simple fact that at the beginning of the story both leads identify as girls, and on of them is MADLY in love with the other! I also think it's safe to tag as such even should Hime identify as different labels--whether romantically or in her gender--over the course of the story, because the nature of a coming of age journey of exploring one's identity means that representation at the beginning still matters.
I think I've said everything I can contribute to the conversation about this and tried to say it as respectfully as I can. I do like reading your input in the forums but this argument was very disheartening, and I'm going to be blocking you for a while. IDK if it was your intent, or if you were just having a really shitty week, or if there's just a huge misunderstanding between us over context, but I'm not here for the lack of respect towards myself or trans individuals I'm reading from you, and I have no obligation to read opinions of someone who doesn't have empathy or respect. I couldn't standby and let people say misguided things knowing there are individuals who read the comments who are valid in taking offense to it, and others who would use it to further alienate trans individuals (our objective here should be to Not do that). Idk if you are transphobic or homophobic, but what you had to say was, and I genuinely recommend becoming self-aware of not immediately doubling-down on your opinion when someone says (and attempts to explain) that it is hurtful.

 

[EvelynIsGone]

recent explosion of gender hysteria.

could you be any more of a boomer?

 

[Bigmememan69]

Im really confused on how it's the end of the world to tag this as yuri
Like lmao dude if you don't like transfolks just be honest instead of acting like you're upholding the sanctity of website

 

[theHist]

@Letheliah thank you for ending the argument. It was getting so negative and toxic
To the person who was spilling bitter arguments, if you're an outsider to a community and someone from inside is telling you that your behavior is [trans/homo/phobic or racist or whatever it might be], you shut up and listen to the people who live in that reality.
It's not a fault inherent to you, so don't feel like we're attacking You. We're attacking your behavior. Change it and we're good. No one is perfect, but Wanting to Learn is what makes the difference between assholes and people who just don't know better

 

[totallynotmike]

Letheliah thank you for ending the argument. It was getting so negative and toxic

You assume something was reasoned here, not ignored upon being identified as 0 kcal marshmallow string of statements based on done to death talking points, glazed with preachy layer of condescending benevolence.

if you're an outsider to a community and someone from inside is telling you that your behavior is [trans/homo/phobic or racist or whatever it might be], you shut up and listen to the people who live in that reality.

It's not a fault inherent to you, so don't feel like we're attacking You. We're attacking your behavior. Change it and we're good. No one is perfect, but Wanting to Learn is what makes the difference between assholes and people who just don't know better

Pure gold. Do you guys ever go off script?


Anyway, how about taking that administrative appeal approach instead of screaming your personal stories and telegraphing opinions? Though that would probably require some deal of honest concern, not pet objectification of "oppressed" groups to play social fashionistas and feel better without actually doing anything.

 

[shadowgrail]

This isn't yuri. If the tag doesn't represent the actual content, then what's the point? I guarantee if you slapped the yuri tag onto this manga right now, you'd have a lot more angry people in this thread. How can we rely on tags if we leave their definition ambiguous? Why should we humor a group if it's only going to cause inconvenience for everyone else in the long run?

Think about the bigger picture guys.

 

[ManyManyAnts]

Honestly was this whole mess really about the Yuri tag? At first it was mostly about the crossdressing tag which can raise some eyebrows depending on how you interpret it even if Hime is actually crossdressing. The problem isn't just about transphobia. As much as I and other people may not agree to it, yuri has always been pressured to be some pure romance between real, biological cute girls in the flesh. But even if this is not the case, first and foremost this doesn't qualify for the Yuri tag simply because it's just an one-sided crush. The story simply isn't about girls in love with each other. That's what people look for when they want to browse the tag. Right now Hime isn't even trying to pursue Akira.

Now, while debating what qualifies as Yuri and what deserves the tag shouldn't be an issue in itself, that BL guy that thinks he's hot shit so far only came into the comments to point fingers at people for no reason whatsoever, complete with bogus theory about what how and why each human being feels attracted to other people, as if everyone goes through the same damn process when finding someone to shag (or not). Sure trans people didn't know they get shit all the time, even by other LGBT people. Who could tell people aren't comfortable with things outside their expectations? Being such an adaptable species while failing to accept change from other people has been peak human nature for hundreds of years.

Yeah my guy no one likes having to talk about "social justice" but you don't even have to common sense not to drag your delusional man-child ass in here and act exactly like a troll, while embarassingly and presumably just being your real self, just bragging about how people's words don't phase you. Good for you. We aren't entitled to entertain your rambling, so behave yourself a bit and stop trying to getting into petty arguments with people just to feed your own ego. If you don't agree with something you're free to argue but don't come mock people while being a passive-aggressive smartass. Knowing when to stop comes a long way.