Kenja no Deshi wo Nanoru Kenja - Vol. 8 Ch. 42

[SuperOniichan]

@YuriIsTooLewd Well, the aforementioned chapter describes Mariana as something like Rem 2.0. Which is literally one step away from becoming "happy in slavery." I don't understand why MC thinks she's too pure. And the argument about trust sounds rather strange here, since the MC is not going to rape or even molested her. So it sounds unreasonably taboo to me, as if I'm reading something about forbidden relationships and not a sexually complex version of Youjo Senki.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@YuriIsTooLewd I just see it too forced. It would be one thing if we were talking about a 13-year-old boy who is afraid of offending the girl he is in love with. Another thing is an adult man who has at least minimal sexual experience and is mature enough to discuss his feelings with love interest. I would understand if it was "Peter Grill", whose female lead thinks that the stork brings babies, but no.

 

[Dragou]

@SuperOniichan I wouldnt say you are an asshole or something like that. there are other who would deserve such an adjective. Age wise is like stated not truly clear but we know that the fine old and dandy gentlemen is his perfect image of a man. The reason why he hesitates has as far as I understand is more because of a combination of 2-3 reasons.
First he still hopes to get his Dumbulf-body back (subtext is how I understand that he would MAYBE go for it if he had his dandy male body) and going after her in his female body would be closer to giving that up.
Second he partly isnt sure how to behave towards her because of guilt letting her be 30 years alone.
Third he basically later in the story (which is in the not yet translated part) acts affectionate with her and because he didnt outright state towards her that he loves her, Marianne holds back a bit and acts partly like a maid/mom/wife mix, which confuses the MC because of something that looks like inexperience.

But again that is just how I understand it and besides the first point is quite confusing for me too. In all honesty it feels more like the author is avoiding the direct points of their relationship like kissing and so on, so that the MC can "enjoy" bathing with other woman better. Which isnt him enjoying it less and less in some pervert way and more like "its more relaxing for him because he doesnt have feelings for them".
Basically its the point I would say its the most strange/unnatural point in the story for me.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@Dragou The thing is, insulting myself, I look ironic and avoid any accusations of salinity, lol. But if it's without jokes, then I want to ask one question. How much is Mira attached to his male identity? And how aware of this is the other girl? The chapter from LN reminded me of Mahouka due to the atmosphere of enslavement, but I did not notice that the MC had some kind of goal like "to become a man to be with her." Not to mention, from what I understand, fairies in this universe don't care about gender. So it doesn't seem like a gender bender story like Ayakashi Triangle, more like the MC should eventually take the yuri path.

 

[Dragou]

@SuperOniichan Its kinda complicated, his current appeareance is the culmination of all his ideals and fetishes from a woman, but he has still a strong attachment to his male character. .... You could say he sees his Dumbulf character as his masterpiece and ultimate goal as a man. He made his female character more like a joke and because bored but never intended to lock it in.

That is how I completely understand it because of what was said at the beginning of the story. His attachement towards his male character is mostly shown, when he sates for himself that he ddint gave up getting this body back. Even though he doesnt search for a way yet, because it is convenient for his mission. He is partly aware that she likes him and Marianne is not shown in any way to be aware of it.
Besides that the only possible reasons for him holding back is what others may think, but that is more a shoot into the dark.

Like I said the whole situation besides him holding back and confessing is more the typical "inexperience" (which is contrary how he acts to other situations where he doesnt act inexperienced/bothered at all) and his hope to get his male body back and be together with her in that form.

Therefore I personally think the author avoids the talking about it and going the "physical" part of this outside the characters. Which again is the point that is a bit out of character for them. Marianne can be explained because she accepts to be EVERYTHING he wants and therefore doesnt dare to demand more.

If I would try to describe it: They are like a married couple that lives together (and are aware of their feelings for each other), but the kissing and sexual things wont appear until they "confessed" towards each other. Which they avoid for various reasons. (Mostly he wants to be male and she accepts everything.)

PS wont deny that Marianne seems a bit "crazy" for me in that aspect.

 

[YuriIsTooLewd]

@SuperOniichan
I didn't read re:zero (from a quick search of 'Rem'), but I agree with the happy in slavery impression, and I've dropped enough isekai to know that a number of Japanese like those things. It's probably the author adding some fan service, I think.

I call it breach of trust, but it doesn't have to be those extreme things, but any time someone does on purpose something that is not expected by cultural norms, implicit things and the current relationship. In many cases the main guilt comes from knowing that you should not do it, and that you'd let them down by doing it, even if minor. For example reading a secret diary. Also buying a packet of cigarette when you promised your wife to never do it again. But also eating the thing they left in a shared space for later, knowing that they love it and can rarely eat it. You know that you shouldn't desire their yogurt, but it's too good to just live it there. Yogurt is a silly example, but it really just depends upon the relationship. They may just get a bit angry at you, but it mostly depends on how much they expected you to respect the implicit trust they put in you when they left the yogurt there. Or the cigarette. Or the diary.

@Dragou too
I didn't read the novel, but I think it's probably because they never had any kind of sexual interaction before, and this is outside of their established relationship. I say this from the "But since she started growing conscious of Mariana" meaning she wasn't before. If Mira thought of them as friends, it may seem wrong to look at her in this way, leading to the thought process I mentioned above.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@Dragou So, this is more like Mahouka. A restrained MC and obsessively dedicated to him, but disguised as Onee-sama, his love interest. In general, if I understand correctly, at the moment MC perceives himself as a straight man who temporarily "took the image" of a young girl? Therefore the plot ignores the awareness of any yuri stuff?

@YuriIsTooLewd It still sounds like he's a shonen MC who only recently realized that his childhood tomboy is actually a girl. If I was reading the work, I could say that this is just a clumsy use of standard tropes, but it also looks like there is some purpose behind it all.

 

[Dragou]

@YuriIsTooLewd Marianne was (for the MC and the players in general) in the game era just an NPC and his aide but he accepts her as fully real and alive and has deep affection towards her. I think from there your point of the trust thing emerges. It makes a bit sense but at the same time the weird points remain, like my try to describe it.

@SuperOniichan he knows and supports yuri stuff openly if it isnt concerned around him, because he still sees himself as a male (even though he has a female body) and like you said the thing with the temporary thing. .... At least he still hopes that. He has nearly no awareness of beeing a girl whatsoever and doesnt even try to be. Which will turn into some situations later.

In all honesty it wouldnt surprise me if the author wanted to go full course but editor or publisher did go against it. At least some similar things happened to some stories in my country.

 

[YuriIsTooLewd]

@Dragou
Like last chapter, where she walked around naked and behaved calmly as if it was normal to stand there naked in front of an unknown man. It does seem s/he doesn't have much self awareness.

@SuperOniichan
That's the impression it gave me, particularly because the target audience is shounen. I also dropped many iseaki where they claim just the body changed, but somehow the MC starts acting like a kid just because it's cuter. At least this one doesn't suddenly turn the MC's mind into the one of a girl that only had a female body all her life, so just making him act uncomfortable doesn't seem that much of a deal to me. Particularly without knowing much about his past or age.

 

[dextersTomato]

HOW DARE YOU CALL THE MC A BRAT!!!!!

She's a proper lady, and the proof were the last chapter happy swimming she'd done with her summoned partner...
You already peeped her and you call her a brat? In my eyes, she was truly a spectacle...
If she was not a 2D, i already propose to her... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[monkey123]

@dextersTomato
A loli is still a loli. That propose will bring you to jail. 🤣

 

[flannan]

@SuperOniichan - these days, people call anybody stronger than Worthless Harem Protagonist "overpowered". Kirito's actual ability and feats are typical for a main character of an action story that isn't shounen battle anime - strong enough to be admirable, but far from draining tension out of the story.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@YuriIsTooLewd Well, Japanese people traditionally have a different perspective on sexuality and gender identity than Europeans or Americans. They very often associate sexuality with gender, to the point that crushing a feminine girl on a prince-ish tomboy would be considered completely heterosexual. So, while retaining a masculine personality, he technically remains a man in the eyes of a Japanese audience and a relationship with a theoretical male interest would literally be negatively taken as BL.

@flannan People just don't know what they want. They complain that ReZero's Subaru grows too slowly as a character and does not use his abilities as a cheat, but at the same time they love to complain about the cool and powerful MCs being overpowered.

@Dragou Well, speaking of that, the Japanese very often deliberately use ambiguous friendships as a broader appeal and to avoid being trapped as a gay title. But in such cases, any signs of affection "must" be strictly ambiguous and the characters always avoid any talk of friendship or romance. For example, Takeda and KyoAni used this approach in Liz and Blue Bird, while adding the question "Do you have someone you like?" in one of the Eupho's spin-off when she wanted to avoid yuri readings. So, if we really see the author's reflections on their relationship and thoughts about each other in the text, then the romantic subplot really exists. However, I haven’t read the work, so I don’t know which direction the author’s intentions are going with regard to the final form of their romantic relationship.

 

[YuriIsTooLewd]

@dextersTomato
I agree, she is gorgeous, cute and powerful. I probably wouldn't be reading this otherwise. It's also why I refer to her as 'she' even if she considers herself to be a 'he'. Nonetheless, I still think that the way she acted in that novel chapter seemed worthy of a shounen-harem MC, tho.

@SuperOniichan
Woah, mind blowing. Now I see why the 'tomboy prince' usually has such a huge straight-female following, which never made any sense to me as a trope.

 

[Dragou]

@SuperOniichan we are now in the (beginning of) "chimera clausen arc/part" which will take quite a while. After 1-2 short "arcs/parts" this really long "arc/part" there will a character asking Mira quite clear about romantic feelings, which will be answered. Not avoided like normally in anime/manga, but answered. Regarding the thoughts, they appear again and again and Mira at some point even questions himself why Mariane sometimes doesnt fully act like a wife. (From his/japanese point of view.)

If we go by the pacing of the chapters and their releases (which isnt bad by any means) it will take more than a year ... maybe even 2 before we see that point directly ... eventually even longer.

PS like seen in this questioning himself, you can see how deliberately the author avoids it directly, which I said wouldnt be odd because the editor/publisher said something.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@YuriIsTooLewd The Japanese have a highly developed androgynous culture. For example, several centuries ago, feminine guys referred to themselves as the "third gender", because in Japanese culture, young beauty is a feminine thing. Because of this, bishonen in shoujo is often viewed as a feminine fantasy of independent women.

@Dragou Well, I don't know how many arcs the anime will cover, but as I said before, the adaptation style can at least partially hint at the author's intent.

 

[Dragou]

@SuperOniichan I honestly cant predict, because the pacing will be absolutely all over the place ...... honestly speaking without a bigger budget and 24+ episodes they wont even cover this "arc" (if they eve reach it, which I dont belive) fully without stopping right in the middle of it or slaughtering the pacing. Together with the animations they would need to do ...... if this series gets someday an anime it will hurt quite a bit.

As much I would love to see a high quality anime of this series I dont think we will get it in a good way. It will be most likely end up like "I said make my abilities average", where the anime changed even the storyline into something completely different.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@Dragou Well, if the original is popular enough in Japan and not as a moe title, then I hope the show goes to White Fox. These guys are the best at making adaptations like this.

I said make my abilities average ? At one time, I decided not to watch this title, as it seemed to me bait-ish and CGDCT in isekai.

 

[Dragou]

@SuperOniichan seriously dont do it, the novel is already only a bit above average, but still partly enjoyable/entertaining, but the anime is "urks" at best. We will see how it goes with kenja no deshi, but when I hope it gets a big animeseries with a good budget. I personally think it could be one of the new great series. (Like bleach, naruto and fairy tail back then.)
If they do it right the popularity of this series could be even greater than now.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@Dragou I actually enjoy watching adaptations of isekai or fantasy LN previously unknown to me, but some of the shows were so generic that it took a lot of effort for me to complete them. Well, I only read two manga chapters and one chapter from LN, but what I saw left me with a pretty positive impression. Not a big fan of titles like this, but MC looks charismatic.