Kimi wa Yotsuba no Clover - Ch. 50 - Straight to the point

[martianpaws]

I can’t fix her

 

[Arkuses]

Based on what Uichi remembered, it seems like the hypothesis that she confessed to him in middle school was correct.

My guess is she asked him out ironically to bully him anyway, but when he refused she took it as an attack because she's crazy.

Bet he even accidentally said something that resulted in her wanting to look perfect since she took a break after getting mud

 

[Sakuyadorf]

seeing the Volume 6 cover and the chapter ends with "I can fight"
one thing comes to mind

 

[SpecialProjectY]

Part of growing up is a little something called accountability. If no one likes you then that says more than a little about your behaviour.

Lessons in that.

Yeah, reason for my bullying was "foreign sounding surname", guy I know was bullied because his parents were poor (he committed suicide in HS), ex gf was taller than other girls or boys in her age (grew up in depression and alcoholism).

Vast majority if not all it comes from petty reasons and not accepting people individuality.

You have some really odd vision of bullied people, I'm wondering what are your examples.

 

[Grimmusicion]

Unfortunately, the worst form of hates frequently comes from a love that have been twisted by circumstances. In these cases, the target of that hate can indeed be the person you love(d). You can't assume that toxic relationships means love is inexistent. Sometimes, the negativity of a individual can be just that strong. (And frankly, she doesn't seem to be really fine mentally.)

Fair point. I suppose emotions aren't usually as cut-and-dry as would be nice. And, yes, her mental health certainly doesn't appear to be the best, which might explain how things escalated to this extent...

 

[danbellucci]

Yeah, reason for my bullying was "foreign sounding surname", guy I know was bullied because his parents were poor (he committed suicide in HS), ex gf was taller than other girls or boys in her age (grew up in depression and alcoholism).

Vast majority if not all it comes from petty reasons and not accepting people individuality.

You have some really odd vision of bullied people, I'm wondering what are your examples.

I'm not saying it's true 100% of the time, it's just a trend. But unless you believe that most people are bad people, the fact is that if everyone or nearly everyone in a class dislikes someone, it's probably because they're the problem, not everyone else, and they're a bit of an asshole.

I don't think people would have trouble following this logic in any other situation. I mean what's more likely? that 30 people are just bad people for no reason, or that 1 person they all dislike is an asshole?

 

[kiero13]

I really admire their desire to live lol I wonder if the lover's suicide option ever entered their minds.

Anyway, that other clover really needs to be rooted out. Why isn't yotsuba checking on her hacker friend again?

And I wonder if there was already a timeline where she confessed everything that she's doing to uichi. Tho its a double edged sword given he can always relapse, I'm thinking it could also help her at least.

I really hope she can rewind again I'm too scared of this no turning back timeline

 

[FarDistance]

the kids who are bullied are often the worst people of all

there are lessons in that

Bro you must have a high iq

 

[jinhong91]

Yotsuba should really wear the gloves as she's holding Rikka's phone, to stop leaving her finger prints, since she's gonna wear it anyways.

 

[Koronus]

I'm not saying it's true 100% of the time, it's just a trend. But unless you believe that most people are bad people, the fact is that if everyone or nearly everyone in a class dislikes someone, it's probably because they're the problem, not everyone else, and they're a bit of an asshole.

I don't think people would have trouble following this logic in any other situation. I mean what's more likely? that 30 people are just bad people for no reason, or that 1 person they all dislike is an asshole?

If we talk about kids it is that 30 people are just bad for no reason. Because as teenagers it is a very black white thinking, you are either good or bad, in or out, respected or victim. For teenager the most important thing is to be accepted and being part of a group and if someone get bullied for whatever reason and the bully gets through with this, the bully victim is nearly instantly the pariah because most kids do not want to be treated like this too and so justify their treatment of the victim with whatever reason they can come up.

 

[ainpk]

I really have to wonder , is the teachers and other faculty members in these anime dumb and blind or what ???

 

[arimareiji]

If we talk about kids it is that 30 people are just bad for no reason. Because as teenagers it is a very black white thinking, you are either good or bad, in or out, respected or victim. For teenager the most important thing is to be accepted and being part of a group and if someone get bullied for whatever reason and the bully gets through with this, the bully victim is nearly instantly the pariah because most kids do not want to be treated like this too and so justify their treatment of the victim with whatever reason they can come up.

Some people learn about just-world fallacy and try to leverage that knowledge so they can lean toward "rational" rather than "rationalizations".

Some people learn about it and think, "Oh, so it's not just me! Everyone's doing it, so it must be right!"

 

[DerekUlty]

If we talk about kids it is that 30 people are just bad for no reason. Because as teenagers it is a very black white thinking, you are either good or bad, in or out, respected or victim. For teenager the most important thing is to be accepted and being part of a group and if someone get bullied for whatever reason and the bully gets through with this, the bully victim is nearly instantly the pariah because most kids do not want to be treated like this too and so justify their treatment of the victim with whatever reason they can come up.

Even adults can be like this, though.
They're many cases on social networks where bullying went back and forth based on who seemed to be right at the moment.
I do know it is different from IRL, but that is something very easy to see.
Violent people are very frequently the only ones to do something, and they frequently just need an excuse to hate someone for petty or inherently bad reasons.

To expand on this matter, the current state of science explains that both the bullied and the bullies needs help. Most of the bullies have serious issues and won't become better only by punishing them (instead, it tends to makes them worse, actually). Even in that, the world isn't neither black or white.
Blaming one or the other as the only cause of bullying, I think, is equally wrong.

Yes... We could say the fault is on... Society. 🤡
More seriously, it is because we have vertical relationships between parents and children and teachers and students that bullying often happens in schools, the kids are only copying the vertical relationships in their own ways. You're below in the school caste so you have to do what we say you will do or you will be punished. Very nasty. But some adults do things like that, and the bullies do like them.

Can we change that ? I don't think so. But hey, now you know why bullying will probably never end in most societies, isn't that wonderful ?

 

[SpecialProjectY]

I'm not saying it's true 100% of the time, it's just a trend. But unless you believe that most people are bad people, the fact is that if everyone or nearly everyone in a class dislikes someone, it's probably because they're the problem, not everyone else, and they're a bit of an asshole.

I don't think people would have trouble following this logic in any other situation. I mean what's more likely? that 30 people are just bad people for no reason, or that 1 person they all dislike is an asshole?

You literally saying that. "the kids who are bullied are often the worst people of all", while in reality it's the opposite.

The herd mentality is the problem and often overlooked, mobbing exist not only with kids but adults also, it's VERY common in any kind of work.

The "30 people" is always the problem, not 1 person.

There's plenty of studies that show it's the bullies that are the issue and often have behavioral problems, not the bullied.

1. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10092515/

2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17588201/

 

[Wanderer00]

I really have to wonder , is the teachers and other faculty members in these anime dumb and blind or what ???

That is typically the case in these types of manga yes, even with the japanese norms Uichi should realistically have gotten help a long time ago.

Heck, you would expect SOME teachers to notice a student waltzing about in the school with a bat and bashing someone to death

 

[ChaosMAX1268]

Heck Yae was outed as wanting to KILL Uichi in the current timeline (which his classmates were actually horrified by) and all we know is that Yae "willingly dropped out" as opposed to getting expelled for that... Almost as if Clover is just paying off the schools to ignore Uichi's torment (given their extreme preparedness, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case).

 

[danbellucci]

You literally saying that. "the kids who are bullied are often the worst people of all", while in reality it's the opposite.

The herd mentality is the problem and often overlooked, mobbing exist not only with kids but adults also, it's VERY common in any kind of work.

The "30 people" is always the problem, not 1 person.

There's plenty of studies that show it's the bullies that are the issue and often have behavioral problems, not the bullied.

1. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10092515/

2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17588201/

"Nearly everyone is a bad person. Infact if everyone thinks someone is a bad person then really that's the only good person and they're all bad people. Everyone is a bad person except for me. Here's a scientific study proving it"
ok buddy whatever you feel like telling yourself.

 

[danbellucci]

If we talk about kids it is that 30 people are just bad for no reason. Because as teenagers it is a very black white thinking, you are either good or bad, in or out, respected or victim. For teenager the most important thing is to be accepted and being part of a group and if someone get bullied for whatever reason and the bully gets through with this, the bully victim is nearly instantly the pariah because most kids do not want to be treated like this too and so justify their treatment of the victim with whatever reason they can come up.

You can tell yourself that if you want but I think you'll be better off if you don't go through life telling yourself that everyone except you is wrong/at fault/"just bad for no reason".

 

[danbellucci]

Some people learn about just-world fallacy and try to leverage that knowledge so they can lean toward "rational" rather than "rationalizations".

Some people learn about it and think, "Oh, so it's not just me! Everyone's doing it, so it must be right!"

A "just world fallacy" huh?. That sure sounds all smart and fancy and academic! Since it's a fallacy I guess that means that people who believe in a just world support and encourage bullying.
Oh wait :
"
Researchers have employed the just-world fallacy to understand bullying. Given other research on beliefs in a just world, it would be expected that observers would derogate and blame bullying victims, but the opposite has been found: individuals high in just-world belief have stronger anti-bullying attitudes.[24] Other researchers have found that strong belief in a just world is associated with lower levels of bullying behavior.[25] This finding is in keeping with Lerner's understanding of belief in a just world as functioning as a "contract" that governs behavior.[6] There is additional evidence that belief in a just world is protective of the well-being of children and adolescents in the school environment,[26] as has been shown for the general population.
...
Belief in unjust world has been linked to increased self-handicapping, criminality, defensive coping, anger and perceived future risk. It may also serve as ego-protective belief for certain individuals by justifying maladaptive behavior.[2][45][46]
"
It's the opposite! that's from your source lol!
For people who claim that believing in justice is a fallacy, it's actually you people who are more in favour of bullying , commit more bullying, create worse school environments are more criminal , more lazy, more angry and more maladaptive!.
People who claim that believing in justice in the world is fallacious are actually worse people. Imagine my shock.

 

[DerekUlty]

"Nearly everyone is a bad person. Infact if everyone thinks someone is a bad person then really that's the only good person and they're all bad people. Everyone is a bad person except for me. Here's a scientific study proving it"
ok buddy whatever you feel like telling yourself.

You can tell yourself that if you want but I think you'll be better off if you don't go through life telling yourself that everyone except you is wrong/at fault/"just bad for no reason".

I think so too. But being so adamant on something you're so wrong about makes me think it's an advice you should apply. We, on the other hand, are on the side of reason and science. You aren't even able to answer without twisting what we said, at this point.

Of perhaps you can. So I will help.
Firstly, can you really say that torture and humiliation can't be a wrong thing to do to a person ? If you can, I want to know when that would really be necessary. It seems to be wayyy too vicious to be useful, I think.
Secondly, are they at fault ? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: The root of the problem is in bad adult figures like some parents and some teachers. I prefer to blame them than kids who are still forging their minds.
Thirdly, who even said that they're bad for no reason lol. Do you feel like that's our opinion ? It isn't, that makes no sense.

Also, parroting "naaaaah, if they're more people thinking one people is bad they are right it's obvious" is kinda funny because you're one vs many people here. So who is wrong here ? Huh ? Right, us. According to what you keep saying, at least.

Groups can be wrong. More specifically, the ones leading the other people can be wrong. Very frequently, if the group were to be called out by an adult, 27 of these students would say "it's these ones who told us to do that, we were just afraid !". And it's often true, but since they trusted them they didn't think the leaders could be wrong. It's very rare for a kid to have learned that you should doubt even about what your friends are saying.

You want things to be simple and convenient, but it isn't. If I bring 30 friends to say mean things to you because I think you're a menace to society I'm a bad guy even though we're 30 and you're alone. Because you don't deserve that even if I find your position despicable.