Koisuru (Otome) no Tsukurikata - Vol. 5 Ch. 46

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Is he? I'm not seeing it at all. Completely agree with the rest of your post (trimmed for readability), but I don't agree at all on this part, he seems to be explicitly not trans.
He's trans the same way Fertis from Re:Zero and that one character from Steins:Gate. They're clearly trans and not just femboys, and the only way they aren't trans is because they say they aren't, because the author doesn't understand trans people exist.

The Steins:Gate character is actually the perfect analogue for Hiura. Both are supposed to be gay men, who want to become women to get with their straight crushes. But that's not how gay men work. Gay men don't want to be women. That's how I thought gay people worked when I was 13, when I thought gay men were just men with female brains, because female brain = likes guys.
 
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I like that he clarified that he’s not trans, because there’s a difference. Be whichever you are, dress however you want. He’s never read as trans to me.

Well this is definitely going to spark the discourse machine. Smolbaka incoming
Giggled out loud. That asshat is the worst.

It can't be more clear from this chapter that this isn't a trans issue, I have no idea how the localizer managed to claim that they've read ahead and was sure Hiura's a trans girl. This basically blew that possibility out the window.
Wait, they claimed that?

I’m trans myself, and never once thought he was trans.
I’m reading the Japanese as it’s released it’s pretty dang clear he’s not. I’ve actually seen translation choices that I had assumed were trying to adapt terminology to modern western ones, but if they were trying to set this up as a transition story instead, then that’s not cool.
That’s assuming a lot on my part, and my bad if I’m wrong, but if they claimed that, they were WAY off-base.
 
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He's trans the same way Fertis from Re:Zero and that one character from Steins:Gate. They're clearly trans and not just femboys, and the only way they aren't trans is because they say they aren't, because the author doesn't understand trans people exist.

The Steins:Gate character is actually the perfect analogue for Hiura. Both are supposed to be gay men, who want to become women to get with their straight crushes. But that's not how gay men work. Gay men don't want to be women. That's how I thought gay people worked when I was 13, when I thought gay men were just men with female brains, because female brain = likes guys.
…I’m trans, and you are WAY off base.

Hiura started off as trying to woo him with girliness, but discovered he just likes dressing this way. That’s fine. It’s fine for men to be feminine but not be a woman.
It’s even more clear in the original Japanese that he’s a boy who started doing something for the wrong reasons, and it changed over time.
I’m pretty sure, based on how things are phrased in the original, that the author got feedback from trans people that it was off, so they fixed it.
It happened with “Jousou offline meeting” or whatever the official translation is. “This is kinda offensive”. And they fixed it.

This chapter ACKNOWLEDGES TRANS PEOPLE EXIST. He says he isn’t trans. trans people existing is implicit.

is forcing himself to be femme in order to make Crusch like him more. It’s clear in the novels. He’s not doing it because he wants to. It’s a good trans analogue in that he’s forcing himself to present a certain way.

Load your head cannon with as much funpowder as you want. That’s fine. Just keep it to yourself.
 
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wshue0.png


He still seems pretty unsure to me. There's still more for him to figure out about himself I'm sure.
I read the original and I didn’t read what he said that way. It seemed pretty vague, but in a “nothing big said about it” way.

The translator is trying their best to make it seem as though it’s a transition story. It’s subtle but I’ve been noticing it.

I’m offended, as I’m trans and like that “I want him to like me, so I’ll be cute like a girl” didn’t turn into “I’ll be a girl, then,” because that’s fucked up.

It’s a cute love story. Are there a glut of femboys and a dearth of trans characters in manga? Yes.
It’s the inverse in western media.
Whoopdie shit.
 
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Weren't you banned? What happened to that period of bliss, when we could enjoy this kind of manga without seeing you swinging at windmills in the comments?
EDIT: BTW, not that it'll mean anything to people like smolbaka, but for the record I'm trans, and I don't care about forcing the trans label onto Hiura, he's clearly not trans. And if the mangaka takes a turn with the story to make him a trans girl, it'll feel forced. But this isn't a controversial opinion, so I have no idea what yall on about, nobody here is trying to make him trans.
He gets banned periodically, because he’s just the worst.
I, like you, am trans a can see he’s not trans. The translation seems to have been trying to leave that door open wide, wide, wide, even as the original was closing it over time.
 
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Ok maybe "identity" isn't the right word, since he actually has a reason to contemplate becoming a girl at this point. I won't spoil anything so I'll leave it at that.

My point is that his entire drive is that he wants to be happy in his own body, not change it. He used to be unhappy in his own body because he feels like it cannot reach the social standards of being a man, and that changed through crossdressing. Having him be a trans girl at this point is actually the complete opposite of the conflict at hand, because it's about how crossdressing can help those who don't fit in feel like they belong. He doesn't feel like he fits in with others, not that he doesn't feel in tune with who he is himself.

PS: I don't wanna come across as a transphobic bigot through all this. I support trans people, I don't support a localizer changing the story on a whim to fulfill their agenda. I'm simply really passionate about the story being told here, and seeing it being butchered those few months ago made my blood boil. I hope people understand where I'm coming from.
The word “agenda” is a bit eeeeh, but just because of the current connotations.
But I, a middle-aged trans woman, agree with all of this.
Yoooo! She is trans now! And you guys complained about "bad localization" pfff... Finally some good trans representation, not like Onimai(p##dobait).
?
That’s literally the opposite of what he said. 100%

Im certain that this was the author saying “ok, trans people are a thing, but that’s not what this is”.
There have been many translation choices that could easily lead one to believe that up until this chapter, but this is pretty explicit.
 
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@BraveDude8

No, the character isn't sure. They are still learning. I am fine ultimately with whatever the character chooses, but you would be ignorant or anti-trans to deny any possibility they are an unrealized trans person at this phase.
No, it would not. It’s not transphobic to say that a AMAB character who says they are a man is cis.
I‘m trans. Transitioned years ago. Had to go no-contact with my ”family” (not my real family anymore. Yay giur), got bullied off Twitter by death threats from terfs. Dealt with active harassment in public (rare these days. Estrogen is a hell of a drug)…
Saying that a character who says they aren’t trans (in a way that acknowledged the existence of trans people) is not a transphobic attack. It’s a reasonable difference of opinion.

Analogy:
If a character is from the Congo, takes Saturday off, doesn’t eat pork and goes to a Catholic Church, and says “I’m catholic, not Jewish” it’s not antisemitic to say they are not Jewish. Having two basic things in common with us, one thing that makes it statistically unlikely, another that makes it even less likely annd an final one that is very explicit adds up to it being so unlikely as to be silly to argue. (there are two Ways he could still be Jewish, but I won’t get into it)

The character has so much more exploration to do and we don't know where it will stop at.
It’s fiction, not reality. Fiction is much more simple, and this isn’t a trans story.
The translator’s have been unsure and translated it vaguely or according to their assumptions. Up until like chapter 30 that was totally fine.
It got increasingly forced, and here it’s taking “I’m a man, but still figuring out how I want to be” and making it “I just said I’m a man who doesn’t want to be a woman, but now I’ll say I don’t know even though I just said I know.”

He’s just a femme dude.

You’re wilin’ out so hard as to almost make me think this is a psy-op to make trans people look bad, but I know better.

You’re probably still in the phase where you’re very outspoken, and perhaps even seeking out conflict with transphobes in order to feel as powerful as you have right to. Not everything is conflict and hate towards us. Most people are indifferent. some people are supportive. some are even “why are you bringing this up? I don’t know you. You’re the cashier at a charity shop. I just want some skirts and trousers. I don’t need to know I’d been clocked” supportive.
Chill.
 
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To be honest, no one's really sure what happened beyond an overzealous translator on the publisher side. Read into the story as you like with the raws, though.
Wait, what?! It’s even worse in the official?!

Ok, I’m sticking with the raws from here on. The unofficial ones are gonna be tainted, too, I’m sure.

I was just catching up on the stuff I missed.
I checked in a couple times a year to see if it was problematic or not.
I started reading regularly when Midou did a “doki” at masc Hiura, but a bunch of chapters are paywalled, and I’m too broke to buy shechita, let alone digital comics.

Guess I’ll finish catching up when I can afford it.

Sad to see an actual example of what people claimed was up with Bridget.
oy
 
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A crossdressing character can literally jump out of the screen, grab these people by the shoulders, shaking them violently while stating he's happy being a boy, and they would still insist there's room that he still could be trans.

We have femboy characters now that aren't gags, comic relief, or two dimensional characters with barely any hardships.

Makoto from Senpai Wa Otokonoko, Yuka from blue period, and Hiura from this manga are fleshed out crossdressers who actually give people like them irl a character that's realistic and down to earth.


But we have these people looking at such complex well written characters only for their conclusion to be "maybe she wants to transition??"


What a way to completely miss the point of a boy who likes being feminine in a world of very ridgid gender expectations.

You aren't fighting against stereotypes, you're reinforcing them.
Holy shit.
You said something I 100% agree with.

Wonders never cease.

A stopped clock yadda yadda yadda.
 
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Wait, what?! It’s even worse in the official?!

Ok, I’m sticking with the raws from here on. The unofficial ones are gonna be tainted, too, I’m sure.

I was just catching up on the stuff I missed.
I checked in a couple times a year to see if it was problematic or not.
I started reading regularly when Midou did a “doki” at masc Hiura, but a bunch of chapters are paywalled, and I’m too broke to buy shechita, let alone digital comics.

Guess I’ll finish catching up when I can afford it.

Sad to see an actual example of what people claimed was up with Bridget.
oy
There were edited/corrected translations in a later printing. I believe the issues predated folks "having a problem" with the creator of Guilty Gear having a say in the matter of story arcs and such.
 
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There were edited/corrected translations in a later printing. I believe the issues predated folks "having a problem" with the creator of Guilty Gear having a say in the matter of story arcs and such.
Yeah, it’s just “people saying femboy being trans is mistranslated” being real is sad. It gives us a bad name.
 
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No, it would not. It’s not transphobic to say that a AMAB character who says they are a man is cis.
I‘m trans. Transitioned years ago. Had to go no-contact with my ”family” (not my real family anymore. Yay giur), got bullied off Twitter by death threats from terfs. Dealt with active harassment in public (rare these days. Estrogen is a hell of a drug)…
Saying that a character who says they aren’t trans (in a way that acknowledged the existence of trans people) is not a transphobic attack. It’s a reasonable difference of opinion.

Analogy:
If a character is from the Congo, takes Saturday off, doesn’t eat pork and goes to a Catholic Church, and says “I’m catholic, not Jewish” it’s not antisemitic to say they are not Jewish. Having two basic things in common with us, one thing that makes it statistically unlikely, another that makes it even less likely annd an final one that is very explicit adds up to it being so unlikely as to be silly to argue. (there are two Ways he could still be Jewish, but I won’t get into it)


It’s fiction, not reality. Fiction is much more simple, and this isn’t a trans story.
The translator’s have been unsure and translated it vaguely or according to their assumptions. Up until like chapter 30 that was totally fine.
It got increasingly forced, and here it’s taking “I’m a man, but still figuring out how I want to be” and making it “I just said I’m a man who doesn’t want to be a woman, but now I’ll say I don’t know even though I just said I know.”

He’s just a femme dude.

You’re wilin’ out so hard as to almost make me think this is a psy-op to make trans people look bad, but I know better.

You’re probably still in the phase where you’re very outspoken, and perhaps even seeking out conflict with transphobes in order to feel as powerful as you have right to. Not everything is conflict and hate towards us. Most people are indifferent. some people are supportive. some are even “why are you bringing this up? I don’t know you. You’re the cashier at a charity shop. I just want some skirts and trousers. I don’t need to know I’d been clocked” supportive.
Chill.
okay
 
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Holy shit.
You said something I 100% agree with.

Wonders never cease.

A stopped clock yadda yadda yadda.

This sorta thing happens unprompted with many femboys/crossdressing characters so I say this a lot, meaning you probably would agree with me alot.
 
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The Steins:Gate character is actually the perfect analogue for Hiura. Both are supposed to be gay men, who want to become women to get with their straight crushes. But that's not how gay men work. Gay men don't want to be women. That's how I thought gay people worked when I was 13, when I thought gay men were just men with female brains, because female brain = likes guys.


FlSJsVBXkAAoOeh


Has it ever occurred to you that some gay men have internalized homophobia and believe it's wrong for them to love another man?

Also, they're not trying to become women, they're trying to mimic women in most cases with stories like these(although for the become women it's usually the internalized homophobia one), so their heterosexual crush may give them a chance.
 
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This sorta thing happens unprompted with many femboys/crossdressing characters so I say this a lot, meaning you probably would agree with me alot.
You’re wrong a lot, too, though.
Either way, you seem to get needlessly stressed out by it.
I think groaning at whichever it is and moving on with your life would be good, for not just other people, but yourself as well.

If I bump into it, I sigh and move on with my life. I can tell the difference, as I know one of them first hand. The more easily defined one. Being trans is fairly uniform in experience on a few levels. “I am this way as a fundamental part of my self and need to live that way” being the easily identified one.

If you see mislabelling etc, say “I think this translation is trying to make a femboy look trans. Here are a couple examples.” in comments calmly, once, then try to forget it. If I see either, that’s what I try to do.

I do read various things about gender presentation these past couple years (in various ways.). as most trans stories are “yeah, I know” for me, and yuri can be tediously trope-heavy, I end up reading them rarely.
Nice to read something I don’t directly relate to. Learn things, etc. I try to stick to the raws or at least start there
fukaboku is a bit heavy-handed in it’s “educational” tone but gives a fairly accurate (the author tried VERY HARD to get things accurate. Research research ask questions of everyone yadda yadda) It’s more accurate than interesting imo, but it’s decent. Glad it exists, but it’s very… tumblr.
Anyway, it gives examples of everything and shows some superficial (as in mainly what an observer sees than all but two characters feel) but significant differences between things.
Just reread it (I’m sure you read it, as it’s really popular), note things, and if you get it, cool, if you don’t, meh. Mei isn’t a very deep character, unfortunately, but she’s not the only one tbh…

You are also prone to harassment of others and blatant transphobia. I think you should stop doing that, and examine why you feel so strongly about it. You should stop doing it, regardless. It doesn’t do anything positive or productive in the world.
I used to do the same about another subject, but discovered I was wrong, and being an ass regardless.
I stopped, and avoid the subject as I get stressed and confused as it has nothing to do with me, but is perceived by others as such. I just say “yeah, I don’t have anything to do with that, and don’t want to talk about it.”

I decided to stop trying to fight you and/or get you to get yourself re-banned again. I have a feeling you may have done that elsewhere already, unfortunately.
Meeting hostility with hostility when it’s just about ideas isn’t good for anyone. You’re not on tv or a lawmaker, so there’s no need to even speak poorly of you to others, either, aside recommending ignoring you if you’re hostile towards them.

Just be kinder to yourself and others. Avoid things that upset you instead of trying to combat strangers over things of relatively little importance. it’s manga. Most of the time unofficial translations thereof.
This one had a bad official translation (considering a couple later chapters alone, characterising him as trans is super offensive to both femboys and trans women), but it was fixed, eventually, baruch Hashem. I’m pretty sure calm emails (or whatever) were more successful in getting that changed than rage did.

I have decided to not be angry with you. It doesn’t do either of us any good. I recommend you do the same for all people and subjects until you can calmly re-evaluate the things that anger you.
Even then, if a person angers you, ignore/block/avoid them. It’s not worth the stress.
Know who I get angry at? Nazis, most politicians and other people actively harmful. Even then I avoid knowing what they are doing, and simply try to be good for the world in my small way. I’m an old housewife. I vote, and… that’s about all I can do.
Sometimes I fail, and get all hot-headed. Bad upbringing I’m trying to not perpetuate. Doing better all the time. Holy crap my 20s… I was just terrible sometimes. Alcohol didn’t help.

Relax. Don’t talk to people you don’t like. It’s unhealthy. I deleted social media because it was stressing me out so much I had physical health problems develop.
many people can’t do that without giving up contact with friends and family, but if something is not needed, I recommend dropping it. It’s trash designed to make you angry for engagement. Discord, email, et al exist. I miss IRC being common, because I’m old.

Have a calm day. I recommend taking a couple days off from the internet. Hit the library or physical manga on the shelf (If you aren’t all-digital. I’m mostly digital. Couldn’t keep some of it on the shelf because I have a kid, now. Just go airplane mode or whatever, then)

edits are for typos and grammatical errors, adding like two or threee sentences for clarity.
 
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FlSJsVBXkAAoOeh


Has it ever occurred to you that some gay men have internalized homophobia and believe it's wrong for them to love another man?

Also, they're not trying to become women, they're trying to mimic women in most cases with stories like these(although for the become women it's usually the internalized homophobia one), so their heterosexual crush may give them a chance.
Well, I said it already, but Ferris is forcing himself really hard. He’s not really even into being femme aside trying to please Crusch. He’s just kind and soft.
It only really comes up directly a couple times in the novels, and briefly. It does scan, when you look at the rest of his story. One more thing in that series that has a dark undertone.
I don’t even read it as super bad representation about either, but as an example of going too far to get someone to like you more. That’s just plain relatable to most people!
Super toxic and self-destructive.

Kinda reminds me of that character/boss in Dark Souls… forgot his name. He reads as both a femme man and a trans man. He still dresses as he always did but was raised as a girl despite knowing he wasn’t.
Biology doesn’t make you trans. Being different inside to how you were raised is. He’s really interesting in that regard.
 
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You’re wrong a lot, too, though.
Either way, you seem to get needlessly stressed out by it.
I think groaning at whichever it is and moving on with your life would be good, for not just other people, but yourself as well.

If I bump into it, I sigh and move on with my life. I can tell the difference, as I know one of them first hand. The more easily defined one. Being trans is fairly uniform in experience on a few levels. “I am this way as a fundamental part of my self and need to live that way” being the easily identified one.

If you see mislabelling etc, say “I think this translation is trying to make a femboy look trans. Here are a couple examples.” in comments calmly, once, then try to forget it. If I see either, that’s what I try to do.

I do read various things about gender presentation these past couple years (in various ways.). as most trans stories are “yeah, I know” for me, and yuri can be tediously trope-heavy, I end up reading them rarely.
Nice to read something I don’t directly relate to. Learn things, etc. I try to stick to the raws or at least start there
fukaboku is a bit heavy-handed in it’s “educational” tone but gives a fairly accurate (the author tried VERY HARD to get things accurate. Research research ask questions of everyone yadda yadda) It’s more accurate than interesting imo, but it’s decent. Glad it exists, but it’s very… tumblr.
Anyway, it gives examples of everything and shows some superficial (as in mainly what an observer sees than all but two characters feel) but significant differences between things.
Just reread it (I’m sure you read it, as it’s really popular), note things, and if you get it, cool, if you don’t, meh. Mei isn’t a very deep character, unfortunately, but she’s not the only one tbh…

You are also prone to harassment of others and blatant transphobia. I think you should stop doing that, and examine why you feel so strongly about it. You should stop doing it, regardless. It doesn’t do anything positive or productive in the world.
I used to do the same about another subject, but discovered I was wrong, and being an ass regardless.
I stopped, and avoid the subject as I get stressed and confused as it has nothing to do with me, but is perceived by others as such. I just say “yeah, I don’t have anything to do with that, and don’t want to talk about it.”

I decided to stop trying to fight you and/or get you to get yourself re-banned again. I have a feeling you may have done that elsewhere already, unfortunately.
Meeting hostility with hostility when it’s just about ideas isn’t good for anyone. You’re not on tv or a lawmaker, so there’s no need to even speak poorly of you to others, either, aside recommending ignoring you if you’re hostile towards them.

Just be kinder to yourself and others. Avoid things that upset you instead of trying to combat strangers over things of relatively little importance. it’s manga. Most of the time unofficial translations thereof.
This one had a bad official translation (considering a couple later chapters alone, characterising him as trans is super offensive to both femboys and trans women), but it was fixed, eventually, baruch Hashem. I’m pretty sure calm emails (or whatever) were more successful in getting that changed than rage did.

I have decided to not be angry with you. It doesn’t do either of us any good. I recommend you do the same for all people and subjects until you can calmly re-evaluate the things that anger you.
Even then, if a person angers you, ignore/block/avoid them. It’s not worth the stress.
Know who I get angry at? Nazis, most politicians and other people actively harmful. Even then I avoid knowing what they are doing, and simply try to be good for the world in my small way. I’m an old housewife. I vote, and… that’s about all I can do.
Sometimes I fail, and get all hot-headed. Bad upbringing I’m trying to not perpetuate. Doing better all the time. Holy crap my 20s… I was just terrible sometimes. Alcohol didn’t help.

Relax. Don’t talk to people you don’t like. It’s unhealthy. I deleted social media because it was stressing me out so much I had physical health problems develop.
many people can’t do that without giving up contact with friends and family, but if something is not needed, I recommend dropping it. It’s trash designed to make you angry for engagement. Discord, email, et al exist. I miss IRC being common, because I’m old.

Have a calm day. I recommend taking a couple days off from the internet. Hit the library or physical manga on the shelf (If you aren’t all-digital. I’m mostly digital. Couldn’t keep some of it on the shelf because I have a kid, now. Just go airplane mode or whatever, then)

edits are for typos and grammatical errors, adding like two or threee sentences for clarity.
Screen_Shot_2020-07-24_at_11.33.38_AM.jpg
 
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Well, I tried to reach out in kindness. Trying counts for something, I suppose.
But the tl;dr is you aren’t doing much but stress yourself and others out by being hostile.
No one wins. Adding anger to the world helps no one.

There are so many people dying right now because they or othe people chose hostility, and I know I’m done spending energy harming the world with anger.
 
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Well, I tried to reach out in kindness. Trying counts for something, I suppose.
But the tl;dr is you aren’t doing much but stress yourself and others out by being hostile.
No one wins. Adding anger to the world helps no one.

There are so many people dying right now because they or othe people chose hostility, and I know I’m done spending energy harming the world with anger.
I mean, if you took a few minutes and read it, you’ll see that I was genuinely doing my best to be kind in my advice on how you deal with frustration online.

I don’t really have anything more to say (because I took the time to write it all out in one) aside people don’t need to suffer just because they are often unkind to others. I have nothing to gain from arguing with you, so I’m not trying to.

Just trying to help.
 
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FlSJsVBXkAAoOeh


Has it ever occurred to you that some gay men have internalized homophobia and believe it's wrong for them to love another man?

Also, they're not trying to become women, they're trying to mimic women in most cases with stories like these(although for the become women it's usually the internalized homophobia one), so their heterosexual crush may give them a chance.
If you removed the parts where these characters say they aren't trans, you wouldn't have an argument to them not being trans.

This isn't how gender nonconforming men are written.
 

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