Koushaku Reijou no Tashinami - Vol. 7 Ch. 55
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What a good chapter.
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Ehhh. I don't really buy into it.
To me she should've taken it as an opportunity to clean house. They stabbed you in the back once. Why wouldn't they do it again? You didn't get them to commit to anything! You just tried to argue their morals against themselves, and then threatened them. It hardly does anything to people of that type. Y'see there's another series called Game of Thrones. Just wanna use that as an example. One character had an issue of dealing with such unsavory people, he knew that they couldn't be trusted. So instead of giving them trust, he gave them gold. Why? Because gold was what both parties could trust when they couldn't trust each other.
Do you see what I'm getting at? It's unreasonable to allow them to continue working at their position without coming to terms.
Iris stated that she expects them to perform their duties, yet doesn't seem to learn what they expect from her.
Their whole complaint was that the entire foundation of the fiefdom could crumble if she's not there, the 'security' which a Lord should provide wasn't there. Which is a valid argument imo. If Iris was incapacitated, would the entire system continue working? There was a lot of blind commitment going on. Yet Iris didn't really address the argument that was given.
Iris just used semantics.
Iris - "What is a civil servant?"
Rando - "We work for the fief-lord."
Iris - "No u ran and disobeyed, y r u running"
Rando - "Oh! Well actually it's because we felt unsafe working for someone in a system that could crumble without her."
Iris - "is it cus im girl?"
Rando - "I'm twice your age and believe you might be inexperienced, but still followed your orders until now."
Iris - "What is a civil servant?"
Rando - (Oh fuck the last definition backfired, REDO) "Well actually we work for the ppl"
Iris - "then y r u running??"
Rando - "OH YOU RIGHT. I was so wrong. Am I forgiven?"
Iris - "..."
Rando - "Taking that silence as a semi-yes. I'll drink myself unconscious tonight to not think about our fragile fiefdom stability."
This plot thread could continue so I'm hesitant to completely commit to complaining about this. Hopefully we get a followup to this content - because it needs it.
To me she should've taken it as an opportunity to clean house. They stabbed you in the back once. Why wouldn't they do it again? You didn't get them to commit to anything! You just tried to argue their morals against themselves, and then threatened them. It hardly does anything to people of that type. Y'see there's another series called Game of Thrones. Just wanna use that as an example. One character had an issue of dealing with such unsavory people, he knew that they couldn't be trusted. So instead of giving them trust, he gave them gold. Why? Because gold was what both parties could trust when they couldn't trust each other.
Do you see what I'm getting at? It's unreasonable to allow them to continue working at their position without coming to terms.
Iris stated that she expects them to perform their duties, yet doesn't seem to learn what they expect from her.
Their whole complaint was that the entire foundation of the fiefdom could crumble if she's not there, the 'security' which a Lord should provide wasn't there. Which is a valid argument imo. If Iris was incapacitated, would the entire system continue working? There was a lot of blind commitment going on. Yet Iris didn't really address the argument that was given.
Iris just used semantics.
Iris - "What is a civil servant?"
Rando - "We work for the fief-lord."
Iris - "No u ran and disobeyed, y r u running"
Rando - "Oh! Well actually it's because we felt unsafe working for someone in a system that could crumble without her."
Iris - "is it cus im girl?"
Rando - "I'm twice your age and believe you might be inexperienced, but still followed your orders until now."
Iris - "What is a civil servant?"
Rando - (Oh fuck the last definition backfired, REDO) "Well actually we work for the ppl"
Iris - "then y r u running??"
Rando - "OH YOU RIGHT. I was so wrong. Am I forgiven?"
Iris - "..."
Rando - "Taking that silence as a semi-yes. I'll drink myself unconscious tonight to not think about our fragile fiefdom stability."
This plot thread could continue so I'm hesitant to completely commit to complaining about this. Hopefully we get a followup to this content - because it needs it.
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@Sandpaper She can train, that's for sure, but she doesn't have time to that. This chapter literally showed how much work has piled up to the point of her staying up late.
Her priority is to gather manpower as soon as she can. Hence, these civil officers. All she can do for now is convince them. She's doing a roundabout method 'cause she doesn't have any choice, given the situation.
Her priority is to gather manpower as soon as she can. Hence, these civil officers. All she can do for now is convince them. She's doing a roundabout method 'cause she doesn't have any choice, given the situation.
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Hot damn, I think she instilled a new passion in her civil servants. Intrinsic motivation is far stronger than any extrinsic motivation - for it is the force that governs oneself and one's actions. By emblazing a new understanding and drive within them, I think they will work even harder. They love the people as much as she does.
And I think in that accepting them back into their roles, they will strive even harder and begin to see that her care and guidance were always from the get-go about the people and her fiefdom.
Thanks for the update!
And I think in that accepting them back into their roles, they will strive even harder and begin to see that her care and guidance were always from the get-go about the people and her fiefdom.
Thanks for the update!
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I think the guilt they feel from abandoning their posts once might just make them hesitant to do so next time which is why I think its alright for her to take them back, especially since they need manpower, but this whole scene that happened completely destroyed my brain. I didnt get what she achieved by doing this. I didnt get any idea of her or the other's plan. I couldnt understand the flow of conversation and where it actually. Where does she stand right now? I feel like I need to read the novel to fully understand what happened this chapter because I'm not satisfied.
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I feel like she should've punished them because by abandoning their positions, they abandoned the people that they just swore to protect and work for. At that point, they were just making excuses and left their posts even when the lady was doing everything she can to better the fief. She needs to show that by leaving their posts, they need to be punished to show that even they are not immune to punishment. It's stupid that she just let them go. Also, there was some hella leaps in logic.
Some of the above comments advocating for Iris taking harder action against the civil staff got me thinking about how Japanese otome/shoujo titles tend to take the softer, intrisic approach compared to their webtoon counterparts in Korea and China.
Here, Iris used diplomacy and passion to appeal the civil staff to rejoin her again - the softer idealistic approach.
In contrast, the Korean/Chinese webtoons I've seen tend to have their female leads taker harder, harsher stances against their betrayers. I recall one KR webtoon where a servant acted behind the MC's back over a minor medical issue, believing it was in good faith. MC proceeded to fire the servant when she found out, saying she distrusted those who acted behind her.
Similarly in CN works, the civil staff getting a 2nd chance like this would be non-existent. The best outcome would be getting disgracefully sacked and their social reputations ruined; the consolation being that they get to keep their lives.
Here, Iris used diplomacy and passion to appeal the civil staff to rejoin her again - the softer idealistic approach.
In contrast, the Korean/Chinese webtoons I've seen tend to have their female leads taker harder, harsher stances against their betrayers. I recall one KR webtoon where a servant acted behind the MC's back over a minor medical issue, believing it was in good faith. MC proceeded to fire the servant when she found out, saying she distrusted those who acted behind her.
Similarly in CN works, the civil staff getting a 2nd chance like this would be non-existent. The best outcome would be getting disgracefully sacked and their social reputations ruined; the consolation being that they get to keep their lives.
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@Xeredge She needs them too much to waste them. Examples can (and probably will) be made out of those who didn't even show up (or who don't show up to work tomorrow).
Punishing someone who believes they did the right thing will just cause resentment and open them up more for future corruption and betrayal. While not punishing them will hang over them like a cloud, and possibly keep them more on the straight and narrow. (It's a lot easier to fear the looming spectre of unknown punishment, than the past instance of having been punished. Especially easy since they do know she has a list with their names on it
Punishing someone who believes they did the right thing will just cause resentment and open them up more for future corruption and betrayal. While not punishing them will hang over them like a cloud, and possibly keep them more on the straight and narrow. (It's a lot easier to fear the looming spectre of unknown punishment, than the past instance of having been punished. Especially easy since they do know she has a list with their names on it
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@zz2000 You see it all the time in comments. People want the violent, angry, disproportionate response to every single thing they hate. Death threats, physical punishment, refusal to rehabilitate, reason or empathise. It's all "I hate them, they should suffer!" It's just the general psychology.
Never mind whether such alternatives would be in character, in everyone's best interests or good for the fictional world as a whole. As long as the reader feels they have been compensated for their own hurt feelings.
Never mind whether such alternatives would be in character, in everyone's best interests or good for the fictional world as a whole. As long as the reader feels they have been compensated for their own hurt feelings.
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Some of them didn't show up even though they were directly ordered by their Fief Lord.
They will be punished.
Those who did show up were given one chance to prove themselves.
It's that simple.
Besides, non-compliance is the basic non-violent way to protest against unfair rule.
If this was done against that prince and heroine we would be applauding them!
They will be punished.
Those who did show up were given one chance to prove themselves.
It's that simple.
Besides, non-compliance is the basic non-violent way to protest against unfair rule.
If this was done against that prince and heroine we would be applauding them!
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@Torgr01 Agreed. I was like—🤔 did I miss a chapter? When did the general die? I.o
@zz2000 those also tend to fall into the sensationalist modalities in many of the romances—cults of purity amongst other things. I don't know if that is typical of the cultures being more overt about the humiliation & diametrically opposed cultural atmospheres from Japan, China, and Korea, or something more akin to the expression of the inner psychological expression of the artists themselves.
From what I know of a first hand and second hand basis (knowing/being friends with comic artists and artists working in China & Korea), those countries appear to have work environment for the artists so demanding, competitive, and toxic that it may subconsciously impact the stories.
Likewise, many of the webcomics we read are aimed at older women or boys/men, so it may be an inappropriate comparison in some cases. I'd thin Josei or seinen would in some cases be a more suitable comparison.
I don't know the subtle underpinnings of the cultures well enough to know how things would play out, but just based on writing examples, China tends to be extremely brutal/direct in business correspondence when translated into English (whether that was always the case, I cannot say) while Japanese culture tends to indirectly state things.
There's also the cultural views/tropes about women. Japan has Constitutional rights for women because of Douglas McAurthur's tendency at "thinking he was god" and his wife being the only one to be able to manage him, and that he was inclined to respect results over gender politics. Highly educated American GIs during WWII (feminists you might say) who just so happened to be women conspired with McAurthur's wife to "manage him". When it came time to writing the Constitution of Japan, those women were able to push through covertly radical gender equality law that did not even exist in America at that time. Because McAurthur's ego was so huge, no one cared argue with him once he had set down law—therefore, by those subtle actions, the women were able to help themselves & uplift each other. The culture of camaraderie may play into matters too.
I don't mean to say that Japan is any less "brutal" in business than any other. It's more how things are depicted culturally.
When we see how men act in comics aimed at male readers, particularly in seinen-esque comics or webcomics, there's definitely a propensity for more violence.
Likewise, the formats are different. We'd want to be sure that we were comparing similar genres.
Take for example, Abide in the Wind or My Boyfriend Is A Jin… (I apologise for not remembering the exact spelling) or related genre comics like Zero Point Idol, or this one Chinese comic where the female lead's family comes from a town where women rule over men. In that "romance" comic, the women act quite similarly to those strong female protagonists in shoujo.
However, these comics tend to be far better written in my opinion and tend to paradoxically hold to far fewer toxic tropes. I think many of the Chinese & Korean comics act more like soap opera vs compelling stories about people. It's much how "children's" & "young adult" fantasy & sci-fi tends to be written better than say their "adult" counterparts.
I feel like we should make sure that we are comparing appropriate genre first and then once we know if the genre really compares. Then we can make more compelling analysis of the trends. (I'm making assumptions here, mind you @zz2000 about what comics that you've read, but based on my own readings, they tend to have different audiences).
Likewise, the readership of webcomics of late tend to be sensationalized—particularly in webcomics & web novels. There's so much rape, incest, violence, abuse, mind-fuckery, passive females who get stuck in cycles of abuse that apparently according to one korean fan artist who mostly works in BL, there's been this huge shift in Korea requiring artists to indicate that they don't promote the content of the drama, and labeling it as "toxic" so that it doesn't inspire young readers to emulate because of the trends of copycats in Korea and Asia.
It's become a major problem.
I'd argue that since these comics are supposed to be aimed at "young adults", the comics will be written in such a way that even if the characters are flawed, they attempt to make role models, much like we see done in shonen vs seinen (where MCs can be total monsters & stories can be far more f-ed up). There's also trends in how soap-operay shows get. Take how gritty & fleshed out some comics were in the 1980s (Akira) vs some comics today.
I don't disagree with the patterns you're noticing. I wonder how much is a product of culture vs ambiguities in webcomics genre.
@zz2000 those also tend to fall into the sensationalist modalities in many of the romances—cults of purity amongst other things. I don't know if that is typical of the cultures being more overt about the humiliation & diametrically opposed cultural atmospheres from Japan, China, and Korea, or something more akin to the expression of the inner psychological expression of the artists themselves.
From what I know of a first hand and second hand basis (knowing/being friends with comic artists and artists working in China & Korea), those countries appear to have work environment for the artists so demanding, competitive, and toxic that it may subconsciously impact the stories.
Likewise, many of the webcomics we read are aimed at older women or boys/men, so it may be an inappropriate comparison in some cases. I'd thin Josei or seinen would in some cases be a more suitable comparison.
I don't know the subtle underpinnings of the cultures well enough to know how things would play out, but just based on writing examples, China tends to be extremely brutal/direct in business correspondence when translated into English (whether that was always the case, I cannot say) while Japanese culture tends to indirectly state things.
There's also the cultural views/tropes about women. Japan has Constitutional rights for women because of Douglas McAurthur's tendency at "thinking he was god" and his wife being the only one to be able to manage him, and that he was inclined to respect results over gender politics. Highly educated American GIs during WWII (feminists you might say) who just so happened to be women conspired with McAurthur's wife to "manage him". When it came time to writing the Constitution of Japan, those women were able to push through covertly radical gender equality law that did not even exist in America at that time. Because McAurthur's ego was so huge, no one cared argue with him once he had set down law—therefore, by those subtle actions, the women were able to help themselves & uplift each other. The culture of camaraderie may play into matters too.
I don't mean to say that Japan is any less "brutal" in business than any other. It's more how things are depicted culturally.
When we see how men act in comics aimed at male readers, particularly in seinen-esque comics or webcomics, there's definitely a propensity for more violence.
Likewise, the formats are different. We'd want to be sure that we were comparing similar genres.
Take for example, Abide in the Wind or My Boyfriend Is A Jin… (I apologise for not remembering the exact spelling) or related genre comics like Zero Point Idol, or this one Chinese comic where the female lead's family comes from a town where women rule over men. In that "romance" comic, the women act quite similarly to those strong female protagonists in shoujo.
In the comic that I'm thinking of, the MC's submissive husbandu bishi trades roles with the classic tropes of female in other genres—his father "betrayed" things and is cast out. Ultimately, things resolved by the cast & truth resolves itself much like in other epic shoujo titles.
I feel like we should make sure that we are comparing appropriate genre first and then once we know if the genre really compares. Then we can make more compelling analysis of the trends. (I'm making assumptions here, mind you @zz2000 about what comics that you've read, but based on my own readings, they tend to have different audiences).
Likewise, the readership of webcomics of late tend to be sensationalized—particularly in webcomics & web novels. There's so much rape, incest, violence, abuse, mind-fuckery, passive females who get stuck in cycles of abuse that apparently according to one korean fan artist who mostly works in BL, there's been this huge shift in Korea requiring artists to indicate that they don't promote the content of the drama, and labeling it as "toxic" so that it doesn't inspire young readers to emulate because of the trends of copycats in Korea and Asia.
It's become a major problem.
I'd argue that since these comics are supposed to be aimed at "young adults", the comics will be written in such a way that even if the characters are flawed, they attempt to make role models, much like we see done in shonen vs seinen (where MCs can be total monsters & stories can be far more f-ed up). There's also trends in how soap-operay shows get. Take how gritty & fleshed out some comics were in the 1980s (Akira) vs some comics today.
I don't disagree with the patterns you're noticing. I wonder how much is a product of culture vs ambiguities in webcomics genre.
For those saying she needs to punish people for abandoning their post. It worth noting that there were individuals that didn't show up for the meeting at church. Iris kind of implied that group will be punished. So she doesn't need to punish everyone of them if she makes an example of the ones that refused to show up for the meeting. Also it's not in her character be petty or vindictive. Plus, she cares about results over vengeance and the civil servants that showed up, showed they were worth giving another chance.
Also one needs to look at the society through a different lens. If one only looks at this through the lens of how modern society works; especially, a democratic society. Then a fair chunk of this is not going to make sense. If a church excommunicated someone a sane modern government just isn't going to care because the church has no power over them. In the story setting, which is similar to how some past cultures worked, the church has real influence and the government of the kingdom does actually care about what the church has to say. The church's corrupt leadership attempting to excommunicate Iris carried a real threat to her family's authority because the church does actually have that kind of influence. So of course that means that a number of civil officers would get cold feet in regards to staying at their posts; especially, if they have other misgivings. If Iris punished the ones that came back, it would probably backfire on her because their actions wouldn't be seen as completely unjustified by the masses and Iris's action would be seen as being too heavy handed. Now punishing the ones that blew her off is another matter because they can no longer argue that she was going to be excommunicated; particularly, since that attempt got a the leadership of the church rolled.
Also one needs to look at the society through a different lens. If one only looks at this through the lens of how modern society works; especially, a democratic society. Then a fair chunk of this is not going to make sense. If a church excommunicated someone a sane modern government just isn't going to care because the church has no power over them. In the story setting, which is similar to how some past cultures worked, the church has real influence and the government of the kingdom does actually care about what the church has to say. The church's corrupt leadership attempting to excommunicate Iris carried a real threat to her family's authority because the church does actually have that kind of influence. So of course that means that a number of civil officers would get cold feet in regards to staying at their posts; especially, if they have other misgivings. If Iris punished the ones that came back, it would probably backfire on her because their actions wouldn't be seen as completely unjustified by the masses and Iris's action would be seen as being too heavy handed. Now punishing the ones that blew her off is another matter because they can no longer argue that she was going to be excommunicated; particularly, since that attempt got a the leadership of the church rolled.
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Punishing those that flee without understanding why is counterproductive. If they stole from you, sure, that is theft. Stealing information? Fine, that's espionage. But simply leaving?
Does Iris own these servants, like slaves? Should she execute them or whip them because they choose to not labour for her?
If your boss was denounced by your local church who you trust implicitly, would you have second thoughts? If she was getting immense amounts of income from God knows where and then discovering she was selling off the church lands?
You could say they are guilty of not doing their work, but in a modern society they simply are fired.
Can you imagine a noble in any other story whipping or executing their staff because they tried to leave his employ? It's an instant signifier of "bad noble".
Does Iris own these servants, like slaves? Should she execute them or whip them because they choose to not labour for her?
If your boss was denounced by your local church who you trust implicitly, would you have second thoughts? If she was getting immense amounts of income from God knows where and then discovering she was selling off the church lands?
You could say they are guilty of not doing their work, but in a modern society they simply are fired.
Can you imagine a noble in any other story whipping or executing their staff because they tried to leave his employ? It's an instant signifier of "bad noble".
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