Do you remember that Kumo has a 3 segmented body in the manga, right?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider
Anatomically, spiders differ from other arthropods in that the usual body segments are fused into two tagmata, the cephalothorax and abdomen, and joined by a small, cylindrical pedicel.
The only thing I see in this illustration is a young girl and a middle-age man.
Both follow the super brief description they had in the WN.
What I'm guessing is that you just don't like Ariel's clothes.
the WN is the rough draft it's where the LN came from, therefore IS the original.
I hate to pop your little dream, but in no medium drafts are counted as the canon version.
- Discarded storyboards aren't the canon versions if anime and manga.
- Discarded drafts aren't the canon versions of books.
- Discarded story content of games aren't parts of the canon versions.
Even if the drafts are published, only what is on the market is counted as canon.
LN versions usually feature new content, but they still follow the same storyline, and it's no different with Kumo Desu Ga
In the LN:
- Kumo fights against Mother instead of just eating her soul
- Ariel attacks Kumo during the war between Sariela and Ohts
- Kumo needs to kill her parallel minds because they become corrupted after absorbing Ariel hatred. The Queen in charges don't exist.
- Kumo becomes a goddess inside a UFO instead of the underground laboratory after making a temporary truce between Dustin, Ariel, Gyuri and Potimas.
- Kumo and party are attacked on magic mountain by Wrath instead of the Sophia's academy days.
- And many more changes
There're a fuck ton of new characters on the LN is clearly at this point not the same story.
As you see the LN does add new content but also change a lot after the first half of the story.
moreover some authors even include some fan stories to their own canon.
Because listening to what the fans wanted clearly helped to fix the shitty Shield Hero's original ending in the WN, right?
Dude at this point your whole point is
"I don't like the LN, so the WN is the canon in my head"
You said something, then someone brings a quote from the novel to prove that you're wrong and you just ignore it.
@BloodySorcerer
lol. K. Keep attempting to trash one of the best illustrators ( https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/3559 ) in the industry. You do you pal. You still can't find any detailed descriptions of Kumoko in the web novel or light novel, nor can you find any more detailed descriptions of characters such as Ariel or Ronandt that linkhuestos hasn't already provided. Go ahead, look. They don't exist. You can keep saying that the "art doesn't match the descriptions," but the descriptions are so bare-bones that the only detailed descriptions of the characters remain a conversation between Okina Baba and Tsukasa Kiryu. You have yet to provide any of the "descriptions that don't match the art" that you keep talking about but refuse to provide. I'm placing the burden of proof is on you, here. Where are those detailed descriptions from the web novel? Good luck finding them lol.
The only thing we get are what Okina Baba has written, which isn't much, and the character art. The art doesn't match up with what you imagined and that makes you salty. Doesn't change the fact that the original character designs are done by Tsukasa Kiryu. Tsukasa's name is even provided on the manga as the Original Character Designer. You're nothing but a fool, and I'm more convinced than ever that you haven't read the Light Novel at all, if you consider the WN and LN to be the same story by this point
Manga V1 Cover:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/kumo-desu-ga-nani-ka/images/2/28/Volume_1_cover.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190625094205
Can you tell me where do these designs fit the examples you gave me?
Because
1- The spikes are clearly in different material compared to the spider images you showed, in those images those aren't spikes, they merely look like one, they were pretty much protusions made from the exoskeleton itself, just compare to the Ede Saine Design, they are clearly detached from her exoskeleton like sting or horn of some sort.
2- Can you please explain to me why Zana Horowa pretty much drops the entire body structure set by Ede Saine, looking like a totally different and unrelated species instead of an evolution? Because in the real spider, aside from colors and exeskelleton design, the very same structure can be observed, the same legs, but with different color, the same kind of "face", the presence of "hair", but these details aren't shared between any of the designs, instead we have what it seems to be totally different species. WHICH IS MY MAIN POINT
Do you remember that Kumo has a 3 segmented body in the manga, right?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider
Good try, but I never defended the art of the manga as being good, or better than the LN, that was never my point. My point was that despite it's problems the art is not that bad.
"Read the Maou's description and tell me the LN art is exactly how you imagined Ariel to look like, and what about Ronant?
Do you mean this description of Maou?
Diagonally ahead of me walks a small figure, nearly two heads shorter than I. The young girl in front of me, after all, is the current Demon Lord.
Or
Do you mean this description of Ronandt
he look like the middle-age before the elderly person"
You know that personality, other characters reactions, or actions, or all of the options before also come into play when it comes to designs right?
That's what artists use when the visual description is lacking. And unlike the visuals, there are many monologues, dialogues and character reactions that can be used to determine the visuals of the aforementioned characters, way too many in fact, for example how about the fact that Ronandt is mentioned by Kumoko to fall within her strike zone, which immedieatly implies that he is actually handsome despite being older looking, the other descriptions also imply that he looks dandyish, one more detail that was not directly written but can be extracted from the text. The Ronandt we were given suits his inner monologues but not how people see him in the story, that's my main complaint about him. As for Ariel her looks are the fursthest away from what she should look like. Remember her original personality and backstory were only given much later in the story, she's too expressive and outgoing in the art,
however that only fits the description of the body-in-charge altered Ariel, and even then it would only feat that personality, however only her mind was affected so her looks, clothing aside, shouldn't reflect Maou shoujo Ariel, but classic Ariel instead, only her clothing looks right in the design, because it suits her change in personality and mindset
hate to pop your little dream, but in no medium drafts are counted as the canon version.
- Discarded storyboards aren't the canon versions if anime and manga.
- Discarded drafts aren't the canon versions of books.
- Discarded story content of games aren't parts of the canon versions.
Even if the drafts are published, only what is on the market is counted as canon.
I told the other guy and i'll repeat one more time: Canon doesn't imply "originality"(as in being the origin) moreover you're comparing different medias. Lastly, WNs are not discarded concepts, they are literally the unedited version of the LN. Rough Drafts don't work like Concept arts, they aren't possible ideas, they are THE complete storyboard but without the polish of the final product.
"Wrong"
"In the LN:
- Kumo fights against Mother instead of just eating her soul
- Ariel attacks Kumo during the war between Sariela and Ohts
- Kumo needs to kill her parallel minds because they become corrupted after absorbing Ariel hatred. The Queen in charges don't exist.
- Kumo becomes a goddess inside a UFO instead of the underground laboratory before making a temporary truce between Dustin, Ariel, Gyuri and Potimas.
- Kumo and party are attacked on magic mountain by Wrath instead of the Sophia's academy days.
- And many more changes
There're a fuck ton of new characters on the LN is clearly at this point not the same story.
As you see the LN does add new content but also change a lot after the first half of the story."
And?
Listen both of you, edited content doesn't make a story different, the only thing that makes a story different is the complete removal of the original plot, in favor of a brand new plot with all the main roles aside from MC being given to new or different characters, and/or change in the entire setting.
-As long as Potimas remains as the main antagonist to the world, originator of the Elven race, the one who drove the world to near extinction.
-As long as D remains as the new main god of that world, creator of the System, using both Gurie and Sariel as tools to keep it's gears running.
-As long as Shiraori's goals of trying to save the gods and her classmates and the dying world, remains the same.
-As Long as Dustin remains as the leader of humanity, driven by guilt to strive towards it's safety under all circunstances
Then the story remains the same, the only differences here are edits in place, time and order of events.
The addition of new characters and events, does not affect the overarching narrative and therefore are made with the specific purpose of improving the story
This is what it means to edit a story. This doesn't result in a different story, this merely results in a polished version of the same story.
@NoGround "lol. K. Keep attempting to trash one of the best illustrators( https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/3559 ) in the industry. You do you pal. You still can't find any detailed descriptions of Kumoko in the web novel or light novel, nor can you find any more detailed descriptions of characters such as Ariel or Ronandt that linkhuestos hasn't already provided. Go ahead, look. They don't exist. You can keep saying that the "art doesn't match the descriptions," but the descriptions are so bare-bones that the only detailed descriptions of the characters remain a conversation between Okina Baba and Tsukasa Kiryu. The only thing we get are what Okina Baba has written, which isn't much, and the character art. The art doesn't match up with what you imagined and that makes you salty. Doesn't change the fact that the original character designs are done by Tsukasa Kiryu. Tsukasa's name is even provided on the manga as the Original Character Designer, dumbass. You're nothing but a fool, and I'm more convinced than ever that you haven't read the Light Novel at all, if you consider the WN and LN to be the same story by this point."
It doesn't matter how accomplished a person is no one is above criticism.
" but the descriptions are so bare-bones that the only detailed descriptions of the characters remain a conversation between Okina Baba and Tsukasa Kiryu."
"The only thing we get are what Okina Baba has written, which isn't much, and the character art"
This only accounts for the physical descriptions of said characters, you are forgetting that reactions, actions, personality and a character's backstory are equally important in determining how a character looks like. And while physical descriptions are poor, there is no lack of details in the story. "The art doesn't match up with what you imagined and that makes you salty. "
How about you read this and be disciplined by the author themselves: https://turb0translation.blogspot.com/2015/08/kumo-desu-ga-nani-ka-q-9.html
Like I said there is no lack of information about the characters, the only thing lacking is proper physical descriptions. In my last comment I've clearly proven to you that the new Ede Saine designs betray the original design, when the new designs have her scale-like exoskeleton create a skull image through relief instead of a white skull mark as it was originally described in the WN by Ronandt himself, one physical description that was written pretty clearly. Moreover the entire description of the scene, in which the fear she caused was far greater than what can be perceived in her image, already contradicts her new designs, where the new designs portray her as a living nightmare already in looks, while her original description treats it as more of a supernatural aspect. Which is why Ronandt tries to appraise her in the first place. This is far more than me being salty because someone interpreted things differently, there was a clear change in design approach that contradicts storytelling aspects in the story
Last but not least Tsukasa monster art is pretty good, but his human characters are nothing special, and something he's yet to improve, want to praise his use of colors and monster design great, you're right in this aspect, but human character has still much to develop before you can defend his right to not be criticized. And the LN and WN are still following the same story, mere change in events does constitute a change in the story, and if the story remans the same than the LN is still following the original draft. Meaning WN is still the original here.
The evolution this time has only few descriptions, but I want to let you readers to imagine the detailed descriptions as you like. Other characters are not written in details about their appearance for the same reason.
Which is kind of exactly what I told you, except, in the Light Novel, we have illustrations provided for us, as is customary for Japanese light novels. I don't know why you're telling me to be disciplined by the author when Okina Baba pretty much states exactly what I said. If you think I haven't read every detail of the Web Novel, Manga, and Light Novel, oh boy. Didn't I tell you I wrote most of the content on the expansive Kumo Desu Wiki? Once again, let me point out that you imagined the characters and forms differently from how the final published work does. A web novel doesn't have illustrations, so Okina is obviously gonna say "use your imagination," but when an official publication receives official approval from the publication company and Okina Baba on a design, that design is no longer in the hands of the reader.
Also, you have to be completely delusional to think that personality dictates appearance in any way, shape, or form. What kind of dumb statement is that? Example: Tanya from Youjo Senki. Ainz from Overlord, Albedo, Demiurge, Sylus, etc. You're getting so wound up about this when you're the one who praises Kakashi's cartoony designs but at the same time bashes on Tsukasa Kiryu's. That's the origin of this fight you keep coming back to. You started this shit, and you still don't have concrete statements to back it up. All you have is what you have imagined the characters to look like from the Web Novel and have ignored the work Okina Baba and Tsukasa Kiryu put into the illustrations for the Light Novel. I've already stated this, but I don't mind Kakashi's designs for the manga, but a hate when people want to decide which is better. They exist together as the same Kumoko.
Furthermore, Kakashi is kind of close to the correct design for the majority of the human characters, albeit with minor changes to make it easier for him to draw. He did a splendid job with Ronandt, one of the best characters in the series, in my opinion. Oh, and yeah that's Tsukasa Kiryu's design. You gonna bash both Kakashi and Kiryu, now, hmmmm?
On another note, I'll give you the "not a new story argument" but go back to this: the web novel is not the final version of the story. You cannot take things from the Web Novel as fact when those details may have changed in the Light Novel. I've read both so I know what those changes are. I also have summaries on hand, written by other members of the Kumo Desu community, outlining all the changes from the Web Novel to the Light Novel. Using the web novel as your final reference is the same as using a draft to make your argument against the finalized version. It's foolish. When I tell you you're wrong about something, it is because I am using the canonized version of Kumo Desu in comparison to the Web Novel.
Differences between Chapters 1-150 and the Light Novel V1-3... where the most minor changes occur. Everything from the start of v4 onwards is 90% completely new material.
Written by A Classroom Spider on Discord
—Kumoko fought another Small Lesser Taratect [Chapter 12 — A moving reunion — page 73—77]
—Feirune reincarnated as a baby Earth Dragon <LN only> [LN: Volume 1 — Chapter 3 — The Egg — page 52, Chapter S3 — The Hatchling — page 69—71, Chapter S5 — The Second Classmate — page 96—100, Volume 2 — Chapter S3 — Fei's Training Diary — page 116—119, Interlude —The Duke's Daughter and the Earth Wyrm — page 120—121]
—Schlain, Sue and Anna reading a monster encyclopedia [Chapter S3 — Fantasy — page 177—181]
—Schlain and Sue practicing in manipulating magical power [Chapter S4 — Magic — page 211—215]
—Kumoko chased by Adventurers <LN only> [LN: Volume 1 — Interlude — An Adventurer's Soliloquy — page 116—117, Chapter 8 — The fall — page 124]
—Elroe Piek mentioned [Chapter 76 — Let's become even hotter! — page 465]
—Elroe Debegiad mentioned [Chapter 95 — Higher rank species — page 580]
—Goyef leading Julius' party into the Great Elroe Labyrinth to dispatch a monster <LN only> [LN: Volume 1 — Chapter 13 — The End — page 231, Volume 2 — Chapter J1 — Hero Party — page 22—26, Chapter J2 —The Nightmare's Vestige — page 67—74]
—Schlain's class practicing magic with Professor Oriza <LN only> [LN: Volume 2 — Chapter S2 — Magic Lesson — page 94—98]
—Oriza is portrayed as a woman <translation?> [Chapter S15 — Ruler Class — page 616]
—Earth Wyrm attacking the academy grounds <LN only> [LN: Volume 2 — S6 — Earth Wyrm Attack — page 197—203]
—Hugo wanting to rape Filimøs instead of beating her. Hugo acquired [Seizure] and [Lewd Technique (淫技)] skills <translation?> [Chapter S16 — The unrest that creeps to the peaceful shadow — page 660]
—Conversation between Karnatia and Yuri <LN only> [LN: Volume 2 — Interlude — The Duke's Daughter and Noisy Reincarnations — page 205—207]
—Kumoko fighting another Elroe Gunerave's before confronting an Elroe Gunesohka [Chapter 106 — Master of the flame sea ① — page 663]
—Kumoko using [Heresy Magic] Level 5 — [Hypnosis] on an Elroe Gunerave [Chapter 108 — Master of the flame sea ② — page 674]
—Kumoko using [Poison Synthesis] to intercept an Elroe Gunerave's [Fireball] <LN only> [LN: Volume 2 — Lord of the Fire Sea — page 215]
—Kumoko acquired [Demon Lord] skill after defeating the Fire Wyrm <LN only> [LN: Volume 2 — Chapter 9 — page 223]
—Demon Lord mentioning using [Abyss Magic] during the meeting <LN only> [LN: Volume 2 — Interlude — The Demon Lord's Aide Sighs at a Meeting — page 233]
—Human-Demon Great War expounded
>Okun Fort: Anogratch invading the fort [Human-Demon Great War ① — page 703—707]
>Dazaro Fort: Ronandt killing Huey with a Long-Range Magic [Human-Demon Great War ② — page 708—712]
>Balto: Balto listening to the Demon Lord and Kuro's conversation [Human-Demon Great War ③ — page 713—717]
>Hero: Julius defeating Bloe and confronting Shiro [Human-Demon Great War ④ — page 718—722]
>Kusurion Fort: Agner's army and the humans getting wiped out by a Queen Taratect, leaving not a trace including the fort [Human-Demon Great War ⑤ — page 723—727]
>Conversation between Potimas and Filimøs concerning the war [Human-Demon Great War Secret — page 733—734]
>Conversation between the Demon Lord and Kuro. Kuro's name (Güliedistodiez) and being an Administrator mentioned [Human-Demon Great War Secret — page 734—736]
—Conversation between the Spider Demon Lord and Shiro concerning Julius' white scarf [LN: Volume 2 — Interlude — Spider Demon Lord — page 248]
—D's monologue [LN: Volume 2 — Final Act — God Loves Spiders — page 249]
—[Sloth], (1,000 points), Seven Deadly Sins, Seven Heavenly Virtues, [Hero] (15,000 points) and [Demon Lord] (5,000 points) skills which can be acquired were mentioned [Chapter 112 — Monsters that change into metal — page 743]
—Kumoko aiming to acquire [Sloth] skill after evolving from Zoa Ele [Chapter 113 — Spider vs Fire Dragon ① — page 746]
—Mother did not came. Kumoko fought an unharmed Fire Dragon Rend [Chapter 113 — Spider vs Fire Dragon ① — page 747]
—[Shadow Magic] Level 7 — [Sink] was mentioned [Chapter 113 — Spider vs Fire Dragon ① — page 748]
—[Shadow Magic] Level 4 — [Shadow Change], Level 5 — [Solid Shadow] and Level 6 — [Shadow Manipulation] were mentioned [Chapter 114 — Spider vs Fire Dragon ② — page 750]
—Hyrince showing Schlain the last moments of Julius through [Past Vision] using an item [Chapter S19 — Julius — page 795]
—Second conversation between Filimøs and Leston [Chapter S19 — Julius — page 800]
—Kumoko choosing the third Evil Eye skill expounded [Chapter 119 — Beam from the eyes! I won't do it though — page 781—783]
—Kumoko using [Dragon Power] against the Elroe Pieks [Chapter 123 — I obtained the Dragon Power! Uhahahaha! — page 815—819]
—Kumoko increasing her [Fire Resistance] using her sickle into the magma [Chapter 125 — Deep fried! — page 828]
—Conversation between Yuugo and Cylis after Schlain escaped with Filimøs and Hyrince [Chapter S20 — Fall — page 840]
—Schlain's party confronting Sophia's party <LN only> [LN: Volume 3 — Chapter S5 — Escape — page 95—100]
—Conversation between Sophia and her subordinate <LN only> [LN: Volume 3 — Interlude — The Ruler and the Ninja — page 101—102]
—Conversation between the knights' captain and Basgath regarding Basgath's skills [Elro Great Labyrinth Abnormality Investigation Team ② — page 853]
—Kumoko wanting to reach Administrator Class, acquiring the level where Güliedistodiez will hesitate to interfere and acquiring the power to ruin the world [Chapter 130 — Taboo — page 877]
—Concerning with the luggage containing Kurikuta fruits. Conversation between Sanatoria and Kogou regarding in siding with the Elves [Chapter B2 — Maou-sama is dismayed — page 886—891]
—Conversation with Kumoko with her Parallel Minds after facing Earth Dragon Kagna. Having more than three Parallel Minds mentioned [Chapter 131 — I lost — page 894—895]
—Kumoko teleporting on the upper layer's entrance of the huge pit <translation?> [Chapter 134 — Spider's natural enemy — page 906]
—Kumoko acquiring [Ruler of Sloth] and [Monster Calamity] mentioned [Chapter 135 — Spider vs Spider ① — page 916]
—Schlain, Karnatia, Filimøs and Hyrince were hiding together after escaping. Filimøs not being in coma, told others about what she knows and pursuing Schlain not to save Leston [Chapter S21 — The world's truth — page 917—926]
—Kumoko fighting against the Taratects in the huge pit [Chapter 136 — Spider vs Spider ② — page 927]
—Taratects fighting against the Bees while Kumoko and the Arch Taratect were on the Middle Stratum. [Black Magic] — [Black World] was mentioned [Chapter 137 — Spider vs Spider ③ — page 935—936]
—Kumoko fighting against Earth Dragon Araba after the battle with the Taratects and the Bees [Chapter 139 — Spider vs Earth Dragon Alaba ② — page 942]
—Kumoko gets angry at Earth Dragon Araba for burning the corpses of the Greater Taratects [Chapter 142 — Spider vs Earth Dragon Alaba ⑤ — page 960]
—Kumoko is facing Earth Dragon Araba and the Bees at the same time [Chapter 143 — Spider vs Earth Dragon Alaba ⑥ — 961—963]
—Kumoko teleports away to recover her SP by eating a corpse of an Arch Taratect [Chapter 143 — Spider vs Earth Dragon Alaba ⑥ — 963]
—Conversation between Ronandt and his disciples concerning the state of the Kingdom of Analeit [The royal capital battle ① — page 979—981]
—Conversation between Schlain's party concerning the plan in saving Leston [The royal capital battle ② — page 982—989]
—Schlain, Karnatia, Filimøs and Hyrince riding a tamed Light Wyrm. Leston, Anna and Clevea who were the only ones in the throne room, were brainwashed and commited suicide. Schlain's [Taboo] Level raised from five to nine. Conversation between Ronandt and Hugo [The royal capital battle ③ — page 990—996]
—Conversation between Ronandt and a Ruler <LN only> [LN: Volume 3 — Interlude — The Elderly Mage and the Ruler — page 146—147]
—Conversation between two individuals <LN only> [LN: Volume 3 — Interlude — ??? — page 165]
—Anna recovered from brainwashing. Filimøs woke up from her coma. Karnatia's parents are present <LN only> [LN: Volume 3 — Chapter S9 — To the Home of the Elves — page 206—208]
—Conversation between a Ruler and Sue <LN only> [LN: Volume 3 — Interlude — The Ruler and the Younger Sister — page 211]
—Conversation between Demon Lord and Balto regarding Earth Dragons <LN only> [LN: Volume 3 — Interlude — The Demon Lord’s Memories of the Earth Dragon — page 238—239]
—Kumoko encountering Ronandt's party after defeating Earth Dragon Araba [Chapter 146 — I feel sick — page 998]
—Buirims' appraisal stone and Ronandt's [Appraisal] Level is Nine [The labyrinth's nightmare ② — page 1011]
—Kumoko has met the conditions for evolution from Ede Saine [Chapter 147 — So, this is the possibility that a person has — page 1029
—Kumoko mentioning Arachne is related in reaching Adminitrator class. Kumoko evolve to Zana Horowa [148 I'm going to evolve! Part 5 — page 1030]
but these details aren't shared between any of the designs, instead we have what it seems to be totally different species. WHICH IS MY MAIN POINT
Dude.... monsters evolve from a sea horse to a catfish to an eel to an eastern dragon to a western dragon in Kumo Desu. You being angry about a "lack shared characteristics between evolutions" is pretty moot when we have a penguin/chicken/gorilla hybrid thing ( https://kumodesu.fandom.com/wiki/Elroe_Peckatot ) and fish with legs ( https://kumodesu.fandom.com/wiki/Elroe_Daznatch ) that exist.
Also, you still haven't found me those detailed descriptions, which Okina Baba so pointedly stated don't exist, proving my point. This whole argument started when you said "the light novel design does a poor job of representing the Zana Horowa as described by Okina Baba," to which I refuted, "That description doesn't exist." You've even provided me with the link where Okina, the author, admits to not writing detailed descriptions. Like, I couldn't be laughing harder right now. So, basically, this was all in your head. Your imagination is refuted by the designs Tsukasa drew, Okina approved, and Kakashi adapted. Get over it. Or don't, I could use more laughs.
The spikes are clearly in different material compared to the spider images you showed, in those images those aren't spikes, they merely look like one, they were pretty much protusions made from the exoskeleton itself, just compare to the Ede Saine Design, they are clearly detached from her exoskeleton like sting or horn of some sort.
You're seriously saying that spikes not being made of the same material isn't natural when there's a dragon with literally minerals growing over his body
Exactly When did fantasy monsters started to follow word by word real world rules? My point was that SPIDERS WITH SPIKES EXISTS AND ONLY ARTHROPODS WITH 2 SEGMENTED DOBIES ARE SPIDERS. This means that the LN designs ARE spiders and CAN have spikes.
Can you please explain to me why Zana Horowa pretty much drops the entire body structure set by Ede Saine, looking like a totally different and unrelated species instead of an evolution?
You do get that they are not a familly, don't you? Zoa Ere, Ede Saine and Zana Horowa are evolutions from the same Evolution Branch.
In the Taratect Evolution Tree the Taratect Branch is the main path, meanwhile the Poison and Zana Horowa (not official name) are the side branches.
Taratect Evolution Tree
Note: I know it from the anime and Arachne shouldn't be attached to Zana Horowa but works as visual representation.
Because in the real spider, aside from colors and exeskelleton design, the very same structure can be observed, the same legs, but with different color, the same kind of "face", the presence of "hair", but these details aren't shared between any of the designs, instead we have what it seems to be totally different species.
Fei's evolution path was literally Lizard => Dog/Wolf => Dinosaur => Fairy Dragon => Angel
Fei jumped from Reptile to Mammal to Reptile again and ended in Mammal? (I guess the breasts are there for a reason).
You know that personality, other characters reactions, or actions, or all of the options before also come into play when it comes to designs right?
There's not better example for this is Shiro as Arachne. She's literally one of the most shy characters I have read about, and yet she only wears a Sport Bra on her human half. And the only reason why she wears it is because she doesn't want to be called exhibitionist not due to shame.
Ronandt is mentioned by Kumoko to fall within her strike zone, which immedieatly implies that he is actually handsome despite being older looking, the other descriptions also imply that he looks dandyish
Kumo's striking zone is middle age men, if he's bald or has muscles is a big bonus for her but that's all.
Ronandt is a mage that is dressed as a mage nothing more nothing less. Kumo even calls him vivid image of wizard stereotype.
As for Maou her looks are the fursthest away from what she should look like.
Maou has the clothes never described free jail card.
Her design is most likelly inspired for the "1000 years old loli" japanese trope in which these characters tend to be dressed in very revealing clothes.
I also didn't liked it at the beginning but I just got over it. Maou is literally more than just a pair of booty shorts and a mini top, she's one of the best written characters of the novel.
Read this specific Q & A: https://turb0translation.blogspot.com/2015/08/kumo-desu-ga-nani-ka-q-9.html It says what I just told you indirectly.
NoGround already mentioned something about this too.
edited content doesn't make a story different, the only thing that makes a story different is the complete removal of the original plot, in favor of a brand new plot with all the main roles aside from MC being given to new or different characters, and/or change in the entire setting.
So you're saying that "Hansel & Gretel" from Brothers Grimm and "Hansel & Gretel" movie from this year have the same story because:
- Hansel and Gretel are the protagonist
- A witch is the main villian
- They kill the witch at the end
Let's just forget everything that happens in between the start and end of the story. Because obviously when stories are made of "Introduction", "development" and "conclusion" nothing changes if you edit the "development".
intense biology discussions here, i think its pointless, she could evolve into a dragon from nowhere if the author wishes for.
like the author could say that she found an evolution stone and analyzed it and after rubbing that on her forehead she became a spider poison dragon, the author could make her a mermaid, or any other thing, because you know ITS FANTASY
@linkhuesitos15 1- dragons are dragons, they are 100% magical beings and they do have a tendency of having more than the normal composition on them because each of them represents an element. Spiders do not have the same freedom, moreover Okina Baba is a spider nut, she would definitely follow how normal spiders work. Moreover your pictures were clear proof of what I'm talking about, there were no spikes in those spiders they only had protusion in their exoskeletons(reals spikes have a real function in an animal or insect's body, and they are usually their own "organ", those spiders didn't have that)
2-"Exactly When did fantasy monsters started to follow word by word real world rules? My point was that SPIDERS WITH SPIKES EXISTS AND ONLY ARTHROPODS WITH 2 SEGMENTED DOBIES ARE SPIDERS. This means that the LN designs ARE spiders and CAN have spikes."
Fantasy monsters are fantasy monsters, Taratekts were literally made to be that world's version of a spider, they don't even have any elemental or non-organic spiders to prove that, Like I said Okina Baba is a spider nerd. She wanted to have a spider as an MC, that's literally the whole purpose of the story, therefore it is extremely expected of the story to follow real spider conventions when it come to the MC and her species in general, even with the more fantastical ones they still follow normal spider structure.
Edit: You keep mentioning that spiders have bodies with 2 sections, but you forget that in the manga, Kumoko's mental image which in this case is more important here, is that of a human. and she usually does humanoid poses, in which case the extra section serves to provide with a more outlook of her own form, in these images her torso is separated in chest and abdomen, she then has head and limbs. She has several poses while standing in 2 legs.
And more importantly she thinks of herself as a human, and it would be a huge spoiler if she didn't have these images in her mental form
3- Zana Horowa is NOT a side build, Zana Horowa is literally a direct evolution to Ede Saine, as proof Zana Horowa mantains all skills and new organs granted by the Zoa Ele, merely increasing levels and granting new skills, unlike Queen Taratekt, A.K.A mother who changes literally everything about her body and skill set. I don't remember now but D or Ariel explains later on that Zana Horowa was a theoretical evolution because it should be literally impossible for an already ultra rare Ede Saine to survive long enough to evolve, also only Ede Saine species can evolve to Zana Horowa.
Taratekt cannot freely evolve to any other species like MC can, most taratekts have their species chosen by Ariel herself(as long as she sees a use for them), as she choses their species depending on her needs, all other Taratekt simply follow their natural progression as Ariel doesn't care about any other. Only intelligent monsters can change species on a whim, and it only happens because these mosnters have enough intelligence to measure gains and losses and even obtain skills other than their species give them.
4- I already covered this in my "3" answer, this was only possible because Fei was not a natural monster creature, natural ones don't have the intelligence to choose and merely follow the natural progression of their species. This was already covered in the story early on, and the Fight against Alaba is the biggest proof of that, with Alaba showing enough intelligence that he made an specific build to counter Kumoko, something that literally no other monster had shown to be able to and the biggest reason as to why Kumoko was caught off-guard. Meaning, normal monsters can't normaly choose skills and evolution paths. Alaba can because he has nearly human level intellect, capable of comprehending the system and how to manipulate it.
5- That is still the case even in your example. Shiraori is shy, but that only accounts for social interactions, Shiraori has no concept of naked shame because she grew up as a spider, that's why, although shy, she didn't usually care about her boobs being seen. Creating clothes only because she doesn't want to be seen as a pervert by humans.
6- No to be within one strike zone a person also has to be good looking or at least not ugly, this is only natural, would someone easily fall in love with someone who could scare even the devil with her face just because she falls into their strike zone of being close to personal age and having good legs? No they wouldn't.
Kumoko has consistently shown to like masculine middle aged guys, Some of them were even described to have the face of someone who would look extremely handsome while younger. So yes, they were probably all good looking.
7- I can see that being a thing, and I concede to your PoV. Yes, the artist was probably following trend. Although I never thought of her as a loli baba
But that hairstyle is something I simply cannot see her using unless they were following the WN after she got partially dominated by Body-in-charge. Where her personality gets changed to be more positive, bright and extroverted.
8- Yet NoGround claims that the artist designs are religion, moreover he only conjectured this
. However when the Author themselves uses this argument it gives fans free reign to not treat the art as gospel.
9- Hansel & Gretel is an adaptation, moreover the movie changes the setting, which falls in the exact situation I described of counting a different story. The LN however does not change either setting or backstory, does not change characters either, it only change the order of certain events or some details related to the event, the event itself remains similar and brings forth the same results even while being different, which means that these events were merely edited, additional content however doesn't really count as a change and more as an upgrade. In later Q&A chapters Okina Baba already predicts the creation of additional content for the LN because they were not satisfied with how rushed through some of Kumoko's forms were. This shows their intent in improving the story, as opposed to create a new story.
@joel7686
I'm only responding because I think it's funny and a good time-waster at this point. The dude literally proved my point for me. He said that the LN designs don't match the descriptions of the WN/LN, to which I stated don't exist. He then provided me with a link (attempting to say I'm wrong), where Okina says the descriptions, you guessed it, don't exist or are extremely minimal.
Yet NoGround claims that the artist designs are religion, moreover he only conjectured this
I claim that you can't make your own head-canon the official canon and make arguments using a picture from your head that no one else can see, dumbass. Especially with a statement that was made long before the publication was released, to be used on a medium that does not provide pictures. You gonna tell every single person that watches the anime that the designs shown (Tsukasa Kiryu's, btw) aren't what the characters look like? You couldn't be any funnier, dude. You've already proven my point for me. Keep it up LOL. @BloodySorcerer
@NoGround i think is cool that someone feels so attached to the manga like @BloodySorcerer and you as well, both of you seem have great knowledge about the manga/novel and both seem to be confident on your points.
I am sure that if both of you decide to share different points that you like on the manga you both could be friends and have amazing discussions on a more friendly tone, its common to miss remember something or getting confused with some details, both should take a deep breath and re-visit your points to fact check everything.
I did not read the novel so i don't have enough knowledge to point who is right or wrong, but i loved to read all information that both of you posted on this comment section, i really want you two to solve your differences and comment on future chapters as well, but more friendly if possible, we are all fans of this manga right?
@NoGround
"I claim that you can't make your own head-canon the official canon"
What that link has proven is that the LN images are NOT official "canon", the Author themselves have said that lack of appropriate physical descriptions were done in purpose so that everyone would have their own mental image of how characters look like. But you seem to have read only the part that validades your arguments, not the whole thing.
Moreover It is because the work lacks physical descriptions that I made an effort to bring text that describes a character's thoughts and other people's reactions to said characters, these information pieces are also used when creating designs. But you didn't even touch those, instead you completely evaded them.
Lastly you accepted that Ede Saine was the only spider to have a description because of Ronandt, but you evaded both of my questions regarding the official LN's designs.
Why did the artist change the white skull mark into a relief art in his drawings?
Why did the artist make Ede Saine look physically terrifying when Ronandt questioned whether such a creature was terrifying enough of it's own merit, and tried to Analize her skills to see where that intimidation was coming from? Doesn't the official art defeat Ronandt's whole description and reactions to Ede Saine?
Like I said Okina Baba is a spider nerd. She wanted to have a spider as an MC, that's literally the whole purpose of the story, therefore it is extremely expected of the story to follow real spider conventions
Baba being a Spider nerd or not isn't something comfirmed. You're just making your head canon again.
Baba choosed a spider for being a huge contrast of a High Scholl Girl and one night he had a nightmare where he was a spider. He said this in a Q&A in an anime convention in China this year.
I thought that the idea of turning a female high school student into a monster would seem very interesting, so I chose to use a female high school student. For the protagonist, this work was born by matching the monster "Spider" with a high contrast with the high school girls. As for why he chose to reincarnate as a "spider", the teacher said that because he dreamed of a spider at night and felt a kind of apocalypse, he chose to reincarnate the protagonist as a "spider" (laugh)
Source: https://news.qoo-app.com/post/189101
Note: Use a translator.
Zana Horowa is NOT a side build, Zana Horowa is literally a direct evolution to Ede Saine, as proof Zana Horowa mantains all skills and new organs granted by the Zoa Ele
I meant Zana Horowa's EVOLUTION LINE is a side branch of the Taratect Evolution Tree.
Zoa Ere => Ede Saine => Zana Horowa
These monsters aren't familly, but just evolutions of the same branch.
Just like
the goblins evolution line has Ogre as a side branch.
Goblin => Warrior/Scout/Mage Goblin => Hobgoblin =>Warrior/Scout/Mage Hobgoblin => Ogre => High Ogre => Ogre General => Ogre King => Oni
However when the Author themselves uses this argument it gives fans free reign to not treat the art as gospel.
The author made those Q&A 6 months before the LN originally was released. When that statement was made he had no idea that his work would be adapted (i.e. He never has the idea of his characters having illustrations).
Also every design that the artist does needs to be aproved by the author (i.e. Okina Baba). Just the fact that these designs are published mean that Okiba gave an Ok to this and this is how he wanted his characters look.
@BloodySorcerer
The most stubborn person here is you. You're literally telling me the canon isn't canon because you don't want it to be, as well as only taking half of my statements out of context. Ridiculous. Couldn't be more disillusioned. lmfao. Pointless to argue further when you refuse to even consider anything but the web novel the final version to end all arguments (it's not, since, you know, the LN exists and builds on top of it).
@linkhuesitos "Baba being a Spider nerd or not isn't something comfirmed. You're just making your head canon again."
No this is actually confirmed by Baba themselves Once again in one of the Q&A chapters. They literally confirmed that they like spiders. It was in one of the more recent ones if I remember right, Because I also remember the ask D series being recently introduced.
"Baba choosed a spider for being a huge contrast of a High Scholl Girl and one night he had a nightmare where he was a spider. He said this in a Q&A in an anime convention in China this year."
That is a cool info I guess, thanks for the link.
"I meant Zana Horowa's EVOLUTION LINE is a side branch of the Taratect Evolution Tree.
Zoa Ere => Ede Saine => Zana Horowa
These monsters aren't familly, but just evolutions of the same branch. "
If they belong to the same evolution line then they have to mantain the same structure, just pick the human evolution line as an example, all races in that evolution line retain the exact same structure, the difference being only in in size proportions. The closer they are in the evolution line, the smaller are the differences they suffer, which should've been the case between Zoa Ele, Ede Saine and Zana Horowa, but they are all very different from each other. It's as if Zoe Ele was an Australopithecus, Ede Saine was a homo habilis and Zana Horowa was an Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, they are far too different from one another. However they are direct evolutions, they shouldn't look that far apart from one another.
"Also every design that the artist does needs to be aproved by the author (i.e. Okina Baba). Just the fact that these designs are published mean that Okiba gave an Ok to this and this is how he wanted his characters look."
I'm sorry but this proves literally nothing. Remember, I've also given you many examples of official "canon" art that directly conflicts with what is written in text. My main point still stands, official art is merely illustrative and does not always correspond to truth. I've already brought examples from the series in which the art does colide with some of the character arts.
Also an Author giving the Ok doesn't mean "this is how he wanted his characters look." This is actually a pretty big logical fallacy right there. It only means that the art fulfilled the specified requirements set by the author;
And in this case I can even use more professional examples of real novels if I want to. Official art is not the same as author's vision, there'll always be some changes here and there.
And like I said, it's pretty common for LN artists to have more freedom with their art.
"The author made those Q&A 6 months before the LN originally was released. When that statement was made he had no idea that his work would be adapted (i.e. He never has the idea of his characters having illustrations)."
This also changes nothing, just because it was said before it doesn't mean that the author magically changed his mind 6 months later, Just as you may think they changed their minds, you can also think this:
"LNs always have illustrations, despite their intentions they untimately decided on choosing an artist to create an image for their series, he choose what ge found best and decided on giving him free reign on the art, using the bare minimum information he could give. "
There's not enough information to say anything about their current stance, but we do know that Okina Baba is the kind of author to give enough freedom to readers to interpret their story. I've provided a link where they literally say that.
@NoGround "The most stubborn person here is you. You're literally telling me the canon isn't canon because you don't want it to be, as well as only taking half of my statements out of context. Ridiculous. Couldn't be more disillusioned. lmfao. Pointless to argue further when you refuse to even consider anything but the web novel the final version to end all arguments (it's not, since, you know, the LN exists and builds on top of it)."
Inventing narratives now? That NOT what I've said, what I've said is this, CANON IS NOT THE SAME AS ORIGINAL, it literally is not, grab any dictionary whatsoever and you'll reach that conclusion yourself. Original comes from Giving origin to something. LNs only "originate" a story when they were directly published as such(there are quite a few LNs that has no other version before it), if a story has a WN then it doesn't matter what is considered CANONICAL, it won't change the fact that the story originally came from the WN. Moreover the meaning of Rough Draft is literally what I described for you, a completed work that lacks polish.
WNs are rough drafts they are not mere abandoned concepts, therefore they are the original work, moreover LN are merely edited versions of it fit for proper "consumption", no matter how many changes were made they aren't "different" stories, you're probably keeping to close to the literal meaning of the word different. Name one LN that completely ditched the WN stoyline after if became a LN. Even Shield Hero, who changed every single early event is still following the same chain of events as the WN, albeit with it's own version of how those events were developed and the addition of several new characters, not a single thing was changed about the main plot so far, even the order of the main arcs is the same, the turtle arc played out differently but all the main elements from the WN were still there. Nothing from the WN was removed, the arcs were merely edited and expanded. The very same thing that happened to Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka. You can considerer it "different" due to how many arc are developed, but the story still follows the same storyline. It's like driving a car to grab something to eat. Let us suppose you want to eat a Mc Donalds Big Mac, you can literally choose many roads to reach the local store, but at the end of the day, It doesn't matter if the side road takes longer, the burger you'll eat will be the exact same.
I wonder if spiders can have penises. PRobably not anyways can anyone tell me which novel chapter do I follow from here? I feel like the story's gone off-track somewhere and I was binging this to get the bottom of some mystery anyways and it feels like they're abandoning that mystique somehow.
