Kuro no Shoukanshi - Vol. 4 Ch. 21 - The Fifth Hero

[gaigous]

@nfzeta He was summoned via teleportation and sanctioned by the goddesses church, even if the ruling class of one country manages to turn their populace against him, his status as a hero won't be affected so easily, also, keep in mind that a Hero is a class in that world, so it changes the whole dynamic.

Esdeath was most definitely a hero to the empire, her subordinates were loyal to a fanatical degree, a military hero IS ruthless and pragmatic, their job involves war, and they become respected and/or feared by being the best at it, history is written by the victor etc, etc. (Same, she's the only reason I watched the anime after finishing the manga, perfection).

I'm really starting to think our view of what a hero is has been sanitized, this is the third conversation I've had about military heroes versus cliche heroes today.

 

[CoolOtamegane]

as asian people. This is true fact We cant live without rice.
I had experience lives abroad 1 year..... It was hell
My stomach cant full with eating jerky beef, bread, and junk food.
the result I lost 8 KGs(18 lbs) In span 1 year

 

[elfalas]

Nothing wrong with lessons like that..
If things look difficult but can still hang on/buy time or w/e, try think and find ways to even the scales or even tip them in your favor, taking advantage of whatever you find in your surroundings or even use skills/spells/abilities in less conventional ways.
If things look outright hopeless and like a onesided slaughter to happen, then leg it and try change circumstances for next time so it aint worse than above atleast.

There's a fine line between heroism and idiotic recklessness.
(Heroes push their limits, idiots disregard theirs.)


TLR
Lesson was about the difference between pushing your limits and disregarding your limits. (Or heroism and stupidity.)

 

[Fari]

@CoolOtamegane Where'd you go that.. doesn't have rice?

 

[Claresilver47]

@Fari The foods he's talking about makes me think of Eastern Europe. My parents have been to East Europe, it's mostly preserved/processed foods, very little fresh vegetables, and of course, lots of bread.

 

[yarnnnn]

Rice is nice.
If it's a staple food in your country, you'll pretty much always need it in lunch and dinner.

 

[nfzeta]

@gaigous
I think the hero being a class 'adds' a dynamic more than changes the overall one. It means he has a label that he must be seen upholding.

The thing about it is that her subordinates weren't loyal to a fanatical degree, one or two were but most just followed her because of what they could do with the position. Also Esdeath was far from pragmatic, she was just extreme.

What's keeping Esdeath from being a hero isn't her ruthlessness but her reputation being something that even those technically within her protection had to realistically fear. Even military heroes have certain restrictions and codes that while they don't have to follow all they can't be seen constantly breaking them either. Its about appearance as much as it is strength.

"I'm really starting to think our view of what a hero is has been sanitized, this is the third conversation I've had about military heroes versus cliche heroes today."
What you call 'cliche heroes' are just the historical telling of military heroes for the most part, within the entertainment medium. People are called 'great' for their feats but its really the impression and impact their existence has on the people or maybe even the world that determines whether or not they're called a hero.

Honestly though I think this whole argument is based on misunderstandings. My misunderstanding of what the hero said (it sounded more of the typical extreme given the circumstances and what he said) and the misunderstanding between the context of what we're saying. The hero's words especially had a bit with him saying 'no matter if people hate us' and speaking of 'perfecting preparations' both things that are really areas where more discretion would be necessary. I never disagreed about fighting impossible battles.

 

[nfzeta]

@elfalas I was thinking the lesson said more than that based on the second half of what he was saying. I'm never against being realistic about what you can do but he seemed to have swapped over to the other extreme -at least to me- to the detriment of his role as a hero.

 

[gaigous]

@nfzeta

I think the hero being a class 'adds' a dynamic more than changes the overall one. It means he has a label that he must be seen upholding.

A class determines your attributes and skills, people can shout that you're not a hero all they want, but the status doesn't lie.

The thing about it is that her subordinates weren't loyal to a fanatical degree, one or two were but most just followed her because of what they could do with the position. Also Esdeath was far from pragmatic, she was just extreme.

Their loyalty and hobbies are a chicken or the egg issue, and each battle Esdeath participated in was well in hand before she decided to indulge her battle fetish, that's what made her such a fun character, she worked her way up the ranks to indulge herself.

What you call 'cliche heroes' are just the historical telling of military heroes for the most part, within the entertainment medium. People are called 'great' for their feats but its really the impression and impact their existence has on the people or maybe even the world that determines whether or not they're called a hero.

Cliche heroes are fairy tales, the worst cases of such usually involve a naive pacifist stopping a war because the author said so. I very much disagree with the idea that public perception is the primary qualifier of a hero, there have been many veteran war heroes who were abandoned by the public in their later years.

Honestly though I think this whole argument is based on misunderstandings. My misunderstanding of what the hero said (it sounded more of the typical extreme given the circumstances and what he said) and the misunderstanding between the context of what we're saying. The hero's words especially had a bit with him saying 'no matter if people hate us' and speaking of 'perfecting preparations' both things that are really areas where more discretion would be necessary. I never disagreed about fighting impossible battles.

Yeah, same, It was an excellent bit of character development for the Hero, I just disagree with it making him less of a hero, for me, it got him a tiny bit closer to a real hero instead of the caricature that Disney perpetuates.

 

[nfzeta]

Your kinda proving my point with each of these.

A class determines your attributes and skills, people can shout that you're not a hero all they want, but the status doesn't lie.

This is you misunderstanding my context here. While the title 'hero' won't disappear its because he was summoned as a hero that's supposed to save them that he's further under scrutiny.

Their loyalty and hobbies are a chicken or the egg issue, and each battle Esdeath participated in was well in hand before she decided to indulge her battle fetish, that's what made her such a fun character, she worked her way up the ranks to indulge herself.

Its not though, I think only 2 people were ever shown to be loyal to her, the rest were just part of her 'team'. The second part of this just furthers my point about the not pragmatic thing.

Cliche heroes are fairy tales, the worst cases of such usually involve a naive pacifist stopping a war because the author said so. I very much disagree with the idea that public perception is the primary qualifier of a hero, there have been many veteran war heroes who were abandoned by the public in their later years.

Again, this is pretty much what I'm saying other than that extra bit about pacifists. I also never said it was the primary but rather phrased it as a 50/50. Your last statement pretty much solidifies why. Achievements alone unless really great get swept under the rug and forgotten. The sacrifice gets made and enjoyed but underappreciated because only a few know of their achievements and even fewer consider them truly heroic.
You're again falling to realise I'm arguing within the context of this manga, a hero can mean different things. For example in China for a long time and even still now a Hero has no necessity to be good or even have his acts benefit others, they just have to be strong and achieve great feats, even if those feats are purely destruction.

Yeah, same, It was an excellent bit of character development for the Hero, I just disagree with it making him less of a hero, for me, it got him a tiny bit closer to a real hero instead of the caricature that Disney perpetuates.

Not making him less a hero in reality but maybe not being good for a hero to practice as the norm to too much of an extent.

 

[anonftwtf]

Let me give some advice to the TL: they were training, doing some training, having some lunch, going for some exercise to help his digestion a bit... I've been seeing translators using a or an where they shouldn't be way too often, especially "an advice". Even if it's only giving a bit of advice, or even a single piece of advice, you should pretty much always use the word some in these instances (other than the examples I just gave)...
English is an overcomplicated garbage dump language (said as a native speaker).

 

[tuatara1]

I said a couple of chapters ago that I hated everyone in this series and didn't think I would read anymore. The first part's still true, but I opted to stick around for the duration of the arc. Now I'm happy to say I'm done with this for good. Peace!

 

[Hollow7F]

gotta say i cant blame the isekai mcs when they want to get rice, over here its basically in every fucking meal, like 6 out of 7 days we eat rice with something

 

[Liquidxlax]

@Hollow7F even when you have say noodles or potatoes? I consider those rice replacements in general and most common.

 

[Hollow7F]

@Liquidxlax noodles are used with rice here too, and potatoes go in the meat stew and other recipes, that goes with the rice
On the one day we dont eat rice, we eat pasta, soup or something like that

 

[Freezee]

@anonftwtf

You're correct on English being overly complicated, but I don't feel what you wrote is entirely correct in terms of advice. The script is cohesive and properly written outside of "go for an exercise" and "the lunch" at least; whether or not these are true to the source material is up in the air entirely.

With those specific cases, you can drop "the" and "go for an" entirely to make them sound better. At the very least, there wouldn't be any glaring faults.

The obtuse language complexity does help in conveying/displaying minute details. To some degree at least... things like emotion and implied meaning. Since people don't talk in proper English... ever. A story where every person speaks in the same manner wouldn't work, nor does it give character.

Say it's a character that doesn't speak much. Said character saying "Some." versus "A bit." both convey the same idea, but both do not necessarily give the same impression of the character saying it.

 

[Wolvenworks]

love how casually Sera just kicks the S-class Dragon boss like it's tuesday

 

[Kodoku]

5th hero? srsly? more like the hero party teacher some kind of sage battle maniac the only thing missing is some long white hair and long white beard.

 

[welcome2atlantis]

5th hero who?

 

[Kiriha]

@Liquidxlax Nutrition wise, noodle and potato can be used as a replacement but unfortunately rice already ascended beyond it's nutrition value for a lot of me. For example i still crave for rice even after eating a noodle so usually i just eat noodle with rice from the start, with reduced portion for both.