Kusunoki-san wa Koukou Debut ni Shippai Shite Iru - Ch. 56 - Her absence has left me feeling strangely off

[Ragnolock]

Ummmm I've got news for you. What has you confused is that you absolutely can like villainous characters, think they're cool, and not endorse or want to replicate their actions. Liking Frieza doesnt mean supporting racism and genocide. He may be Space Hitler but his victims are fictional. Learn to separate fiction from reality.

Ahh the separate fiction from reality argument. The timeless classic.

 

[JoeKerr]

After more than 150 comments there's nothing I can add, so I am just going to ask: How on Earth do you eat what looks like steak with chopsticks?

 

[Ragnolock]

You were being sincere in how people defending a girl is similar to that, and now you use the joke excuse to justify yourself. Sure.

You're too stupid to even realize that Hebikawa is supposed to be likeable with how her background is portrayed and how her character is developing, how is anyone even supposed to talk to you when basic literary tropes and beyond you?

Oh, and now your attempt is to do "No U" sure sure. Again with the comparison between the girl who called someone a loser and serial killers.

Hey, if the mentally ill show fits, that's what I'm gonna say.

Yeah so this is the 4th time you have resorted to just personal attacks. Are you going to ever state a point without an insult? I wonder.

 

[BranCracker]

Hey guys what’s going on in h…

 

[DeepReader]

After more than 150 comments there's nothing I can add, so I am just going to ask: How on Earth do you eat what looks like steak with chopsticks?

Either it’s pre cut steak or it’s a hamburg steak which means it’s a ground beef patty and therefore easy to separate.

 

[Lunkli]

Reintroduction for the people coming from the anime announcement, huh?

 

[Exarch-of-Sechrima]

Hebikawa is not nasty in a deliberately hurtful way

No, she is nasty in a deliberately hurtful way.

 

[Darklight99]

Yeah so this is the 4th time you have resorted to just personal attacks. Are you going to ever state a point without an insult? I wonder.

You think you deserve better? Every point to be made has already been made. You're crying about a fictional high school girl hurting your feelings, take a look in the mirror.

 

[Exarch-of-Sechrima]

I don't like the idea of all three girls being in the same class together, but I LOVE the idea of Kusunoki and Hebikawa being in the same class together. I think it would have been much more interesting though if Moe and Keisuke were in the same class together. Moe being with Kusunoki and Hebikawa does nothing for her, but Kusunoki being separate from Keisuke, her "safety line" is good for her development.

Being in the same class as Keisuke, but NOT Kusunoki, would be better for Moe's development. It would give her more opportunities to get to know him and spend time together in a one-on-one context, which is a plus- at the same time, Kusunoki would see the two of them spending more time together, and that jealousy would be an excellent impetus for her to actually be proactive with her feelings. She sees Moe and Keisuke talking together in class, eating lunch together in the classroom, having fun together in P.E., stuff that she took for granted when the two of them were classmates, and realizes that she doesn't like the idea of Keisuke getting closer to another girl like that, even her best friend.

I think that Moe and Keisuke being in the same class apart from Hebikawa and Kusunoki would be a great way to develop both Moe and Kusunoki and their relationships with Keisuke and sow the seeds for more conflict and development in a way that Moe just being with the other girls doesn't.

 

[Ragnolock]

You think you deserve better? Every point to be made has already been made. You're crying about a fictional high school girl hurting your feelings, take a look in the mirror.

You are sitting here for hours defending a fictional character. How is what you are doing any better than what I am doing? Any insult you decide to flail towards me is just a reflection of your own self. You are sitting here defending a fictional character because someone decided to say that they don't like her as a character. Someone who even said they like her contribution to the story mind you. If what I am doing is a sign of mental illness what does that say about you?

I simply like having dialog, and discourse about things I like and things I don't like. You are the one trying to diagnose me with some form of mental illness because I said a joke to someone completely separate from you.

She is not real bro. You don't have to go to such lengths to defend a character that will never exist in the real world. You are the one who decided to get personal. You are the one who decided to flail insults at someone else. You are the one who is taking this too seriously. If you can't handle discourse about a controversial character without trying to make it personal don't participate.

 

[jojoka]

Right, but that has absolutely nothing at all to do with my point.

It does, this is entertainment and the snake is more entertaining than the other girls. Same way a hurricane is more entertaining than sunshine.
Yes if I was in this scenario I'd want to be in the sunshine obviously but I'm not, I'm watching and watching the hurricane is far more entertaining.

If there was no snake there is no story and that makes her easily more fun to watch than the other girls. If anything this is a criticism of the author being unable to make the other girls as interesting as the snake.

 

[jojoka]

Hey guys what’s going on in h…

I see less conflict on Korean fantasy rape manwhas about the mortality of the characters than this manga which has a teenage girl being a bit of a manipulator.

 

[Asheron]

Someone asked how can people root for her when she caused Shizuka trauma

Someone being mean to you at 10 years old apparently justifies a lifetime grudge and hater-squad being formed. White knights assemble!! Snek is equally as sexy as Kusunoki and has a strong personality and charisma as well.

For a series without a Suggestive tag, the personality is what drives popularity. It's no surprise Hebikawa is also driving the story developments too!

 

[medcatt]

This manga and its forum wars provide a fascinating study into human relationships and fandom investment into the story. I've dove through all 9 pages of comments so far and shots fired across each other aside, i do find gold nuggets of character study in-story, as well as of the forum personas ourselves. I admire the authorial craft at stirring the plot, although the inconsistency between Kusunoki's mary-sueness vs her insecurity does bother me somewhat as something that seems to be unintended authorial oversight since the incongruity were never significantly addressed in-story, only played for cheap laughs at most. Despite the mangaka expending significant effort to give us peeks into her thought process and back story, this still does not satisfy most readers' (or at least those invested enough to voice out their opinions) expectations of sufficiently engaging character depth. What is the recipe for such high volume x high quality/trope-savvy fan engagement for mangas like this, Saranami, and Chanto Suki? I find the introspectives & flame wars here are more refined than those that populate the forums of say kanokari or grapara (maybe coz in the latter two, a lot of fan energy were spent trashing the mangaka as well)

 

[Arlo]

You bring up some very good points, though I'd argue that the parallelism runs closer and that the comparison should be made at the appropriate character stages. It's easier to make "Yami, Hikari's friend" look good (but not really much better, I might add) when compared to "Hebikawa, not Kusunoki's friend". However, what if we checked Yami before she became Hikari's friend? Then we meet a gloomy, abrasive character who actively shuns every attempt to befriend her. Who suddenly dumped her boyfriend without explanation and ghosted him. Who tried to get a person she found annoying into a dangerous online date to teach her a lesson. That's all much worse than Hebikawa has done at the same equivalent stage.

Mmm... that's probably a valid point.

Yet Yami got better (at least for a time). She learned to appreciate the friendship of the person she looked down on. If Yami, who did worse than Hebikawa, could do better, why would Hebikawa be deemed less redeemable?

Well, I hadn't looked at it from that perspective until I read what you wrote above, but I had an immediate reaction the first time I read this. But since I read your entire post before I started this response, I won't bother to go into it, since you said pretty much what I thought:

Hebikawa can't (or shouldn't) win the Shizuki-Bowl until she acknowledges and makes amends for what she did to him. Yes, they were simple kids, and it was a clear case of "For Me, It Was Tuesday" for her, but it was a key trauma for him.

Exactly. That's still a distinction that can be made. And as I said, it was my first thought on how Hebikawa could still be said to be even less redeemable.

Though note that that wasn't my reasoning initially - it's just a sort of immediate "Well, yes but..." reaction to your point about fairly comparing them at similar points in their personal arcs, so I'm not presenting it as an argument - merely a report on the way my thinking went along the way.

I'm not sure what my view is on the broader question now. I still reject the idea that Yami's worse (and definitely not because of any sympathy for her - I'm pretty sure I've said even worse things about her than about Hebikawa - it's just that I can see Yami trying to be a better person, which is definitely more than can be said for Hebikawa).

In a way, reminds me of how Hope You're Happy Lemon tiptoed around a similar issue until the manga devoted a big flashback arc to deal with it and bring closure once and for all.

It did?

I dropped that one specifically because it was so frustrating that Sunao seemed to just instantly set his supposed big deal trauma aside completely, and the closest Lemon ever got to dealing with it was musing to herself that it was unfortunate, because it was a lie from the start. It just seemed way too unrealistic to me that it didn't get addressed or even much mentioned.

And in fact, I'm pretty sure that in an earlier thread for this one, I criticized it specifically in the context that I'd already seen enough of this bullshit with Hope You're Happy Lemon.

Huh...

 

[Ragnolock]

It does, this is entertainment and the snake is more entertaining than the other girls. Same way a hurricane is more entertaining than sunshine.
Yes if I was in this scenario I'd want to be in the sunshine obviously but I'm not, I'm watching and watching the hurricane is far more entertaining.

If there was no snake there is no story and that makes her easily more fun to watch than the other girls. If anything this is a criticism of the author being unable to make the other girls as interesting as the snake.

The actual reason for other characters being less interesting boils down to character archetypes and story progression. In a story with multiple female interests often times people ignore the natural progression of the FML character because it happens slowly over time. Where as characters who are not the main 2 leads IE Hebikawa's development will happen in a more jarring, and in a more in the moment way. People will see the non lead character's individual arc's large growth cycle, as that character "shining brighter" than the leads, but by the end of that arc they have reached a "peak brightness" and tend to stay at their peak not to shine any brighter. While the leads continue to get brighter and brighter ill be it slower to reach that peak brightness that the represented "side character" or "3rd lead" obtained in a more quicker fashion they still have an overall higher potential to radiate brighter. People just tend to live in that moment blinded by how bright that character shines during their individual development arc that they will ignore the light that has steadily grown brighter and brighter over time.

As far as archetypes go. Hebikawa has more room the be experimental as a character, because she is essentially an anomaly. She has more moments to be interesting as a character simply because she does not exist within a perceived expectation for a character. She does not fit in a traditional mold like the other two. She is essentially the "wild west" of characters. If the mangaka messes her up there is an option to go full villain. If the mangaka does not mess up she can get some level of decent chemistry built up with the ML. Hebikawa is not as shackled to a preconceived expectation of a character like the other two. The author can take risks with her, and that ultimately makes her a more interesting character overall, and puts her in a role to move the plot forward.

Other characters being less interesting isn't caused by a lack of writing ability. It is ultimately caused by the fanbase wanting the other characters to fit in a mold. The FML and Tomboy are required to fit in this ideal versions of their archetype.

I don't personally like Hebikawa as a character because her personality is super toxic, and she has yet to acknowledge any wrongdoing or flaws in her jaded perception on people. The reason why I argue a lot with her fans is because they refuse to acknowledge those flaws, and shift the blame for her actions onto others. I point that out, and they immediately go into full waifu defense mode. Resulting to just ad hominem attacks, and intentional misinterpretation of what I say even despite explaining my point more thoroughly in a followup. I enjoy discussions about what I like, and what I don't like in characters. When the person I am discussing with resorts to just personal insults peppered into a mediocre defense of a character essentially resorting to regurgitation of the same talking points that I have seen countless times it becomes less fun to engage with because there is nothing new to explore. For a character with so much "depth" you would think the defense force would have more to defend her with.

 

[man]

I love this controversial reptile 🐍

 

[Freeland]

Ahh abdomen instead of actually addressing what I said. Excellent choice of wording.

Abdomen = belly
Ad hominem = personal attack

Don't throw out words you don't understand

 

[jairosu]

Snake is going to destroy Otobe and Kusunoki's firendship distracting them both while she steals the MC. This is the ultimate NTR and the untilmate betrayal. I know you wiredos WANT this to happen but Hebikawa doesn't actually LIKE the MC. She is the ROOT of MC's trauma and she will reignite it once she leaves him. MC will have no one to fall back on and Kusunoki will be alone with NO friends, FLUNKING like the title states.
If the roles were reversed, Snake, Otobe, Kusunoki being male while MC being a female, you guys would HATE the snake calling it NTR. But since its girls fighting over men y'all don't seem to see it that way and you guys instead find the snake intriguing and fun. I honestly can't tell if this community supports the villain or supports Kusunoki while showcasing admiration toward the villain.

 

[jairosu]

hebi really stirred fellow rivals AND manga readers lol

that's best girl right there 🐍

gng she is the root cause of MC's trauma; she is jealous of Kusunoki and wants to see her fail. She will get with MC, leave him, reignite his trauma, and leave Kusunoki stranded. If the roles were reversed, you guys would HATE the snake saying that its NTR.
Readers choosing Hebi are choosing some wired NTR fantasy, while readers choosing Kusunoki are choosing someone who will last.