Live Dungeon! - Vol. 3 Ch. 16 - Run, Amy
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@cor3zone "If you had two guys coming at you with knives and one shouting at you from a distance to draw attention, which would be the bigger threat in your mind?"
well if there was one guy coming at me with a knife and one shouting at me i would view the bigger threat the one with the knife, however like i said before the story has already established the monster would view the guy shouting as the bigger threat. so if a choice between A or B is given and A has an ability to make you choose it if the choice C gets added it doesn't change the fact that A still has an ability to make you choose it.
well if there was one guy coming at me with a knife and one shouting at me i would view the bigger threat the one with the knife, however like i said before the story has already established the monster would view the guy shouting as the bigger threat. so if a choice between A or B is given and A has an ability to make you choose it if the choice C gets added it doesn't change the fact that A still has an ability to make you choose it.
@burdrann It changes because B and C are NOT separate things. They are linked, and thus outweigh A. And you completely disregarded my point. TWO guys with knives, Amy and Kamiyu, not just one. They are both the same, nearby, immediate threat. Garm would need to have a skill to make him seem like double the threat he usually does.
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This chapter is painful.
It proves that the MC's fights ARE being displayed through god's eye (and ppl still believe the article).
And shows that the one person, who's testimony is the most crucial and has just been freed to clear things up, has decided to hold up in her room instead "cus it is too trouble some".
This whole situation bothers me, not because of the conflict, but how it is being handled and resolved by those involved.
small rant with detailed points:
It proves that the MC's fights ARE being displayed through god's eye (and ppl still believe the article).
And shows that the one person, who's testimony is the most crucial and has just been freed to clear things up, has decided to hold up in her room instead "cus it is too trouble some".
This whole situation bothers me, not because of the conflict, but how it is being handled and resolved by those involved.
small rant with detailed points:
The article claims MC is: 1)weak, 2)leaching (achievements, exp, drops ect.), and 3) blackmailing his party members. It supports the article with: A)general bias about white mages, B) his nick name "lucky boy", and C) witness testimony form a group of shady adventurers and the author of the article itself via a misunderstanding.
The MC decides to tackle the problem by trying to disprove the claim 1), and 2) by defeating A high difficulty boss monster with his party (+Guild leader). The hope is that this would set a precedent for A) and upturn B).
But none of this would disprove claim 3). He needs to tackle the articles proof C). He needs to discredit the witnesses which could easily be enforced with the guilds support (but for some reason the Guild does not have the weight it should and refuses to get involved), and by having the "victims" testimony heard. Until now Amy was conveniently locked up, but now that she is free she again, for the sake of dragging out this conflict, has hold herself up in her room. Meanwhile Gram has just been giving dirty looks. (-__-)
The MC decides to tackle the problem by trying to disprove the claim 1), and 2) by defeating A high difficulty boss monster with his party (+Guild leader). The hope is that this would set a precedent for A) and upturn B).
But none of this would disprove claim 3). He needs to tackle the articles proof C). He needs to discredit the witnesses which could easily be enforced with the guilds support (but for some reason the Guild does not have the weight it should and refuses to get involved), and by having the "victims" testimony heard. Until now Amy was conveniently locked up, but now that she is free she again, for the sake of dragging out this conflict, has hold herself up in her room. Meanwhile Gram has just been giving dirty looks. (-__-)
@cor3zone you still haven't explained why they are not separate things. the monster isn't deciding "should i fight dps or tank" it is say "which of these 3 guys to i attack". and i didn't disregard your point, i explained why your point didn't matter as even with 1 i would choose the one with the knife which is not what the monsters in this story would choose (unless the dps was generating threat at a higher amount than the tank could manage). and in your senario there are still 3 people to choose to attack i am not making a choice of should i attack these two or that one, but am i attacking that guy, that guy, or that guy.
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@CraniumAmbiguity
I agree that its fucking dumb that the populace still doesn't acknowledge him at this point, but MC's plan of action is correct if we ignore that stupid part of the story.
He really doesn't have to address the things you laid out one by one because every argument in favor of MC, no matter how weak or hard to believe, will suddenly gain a lot more credence when they've got a feel good underdog story backing it. I personally believe that mobs of people are retarded and get taken in by narratives very easily; they will happily skip a few steps in logic to get an emotional high. Myself included.
I agree that its fucking dumb that the populace still doesn't acknowledge him at this point, but MC's plan of action is correct if we ignore that stupid part of the story.
He really doesn't have to address the things you laid out one by one because every argument in favor of MC, no matter how weak or hard to believe, will suddenly gain a lot more credence when they've got a feel good underdog story backing it. I personally believe that mobs of people are retarded and get taken in by narratives very easily; they will happily skip a few steps in logic to get an emotional high. Myself included.
@CraniumAmbiguity
The problem with Amy is the exact same problem with Tsukumu, which is that there is no action she can take that would clear things up.
In much the same as the MC's actions being cast as 'he's just benefiting from the hard work as others' regardless of what he does, anything Amy does would be cast as 'she's just doing this because he's threatening her'. I personally think she would do more good by returning to the front lines, but he's hell bent on clearing with just three people, so...y'know, whatevs.
This is a pretty good example of confirmation bias going terribly wrong, to be honest. I like it, though I'm curious as to whether if it would be resolved in a believable way.
@cor3zone
If the story world ran on real-world logic, then any monster would have the highest chance of attacking Garm, because he is slow, visible, and offensively weaker compared to the two faster ladies. In Real Life, defense tends to be paper.
The problem with Amy is the exact same problem with Tsukumu, which is that there is no action she can take that would clear things up.
In much the same as the MC's actions being cast as 'he's just benefiting from the hard work as others' regardless of what he does, anything Amy does would be cast as 'she's just doing this because he's threatening her'. I personally think she would do more good by returning to the front lines, but he's hell bent on clearing with just three people, so...y'know, whatevs.
This is a pretty good example of confirmation bias going terribly wrong, to be honest. I like it, though I'm curious as to whether if it would be resolved in a believable way.
@cor3zone
If the story world ran on real-world logic, then any monster would have the highest chance of attacking Garm, because he is slow, visible, and offensively weaker compared to the two faster ladies. In Real Life, defense tends to be paper.
@burdrann No, you're wrong. The monster has a choice of dealing with the tank grabbing attention without dealing damage, or deal with the two attackers constantly hurting it. Think this way: taunting grabs attention, and attacking grabs attention. With one tank and one attacker, things are balanced. With one tanks and two attackers, the tank will have to work twice as hard. The attackers will grab attention twice as fast after all, since there are twice as many. This is not a game. Individual attention is not absolute, the monster chooses between dealing with the taunts, or the attacks. Not specific individuals.
@Longherin If the world ran on real-world logic, Garm would be pretty much useless. Have you ever been in a group fight? Always deal with the immediate threat first. Meaning, handle the people trying to stab you before dealing with that dude shouting over there.
@Longherin If the world ran on real-world logic, Garm would be pretty much useless. Have you ever been in a group fight? Always deal with the immediate threat first. Meaning, handle the people trying to stab you before dealing with that dude shouting over there.
@cor3zone
And Garm would be the most immediate threat. He's highly visible, Large and Imposing, and has a sharp stabby object. He may not be as proficient with that sharp and stabby object as the two ladies, but in any fight where you have the time to slow down and analyze your threats is either 1) not started yet or 2) not a real fight.
And Garm would be the most immediate threat. He's highly visible, Large and Imposing, and has a sharp stabby object. He may not be as proficient with that sharp and stabby object as the two ladies, but in any fight where you have the time to slow down and analyze your threats is either 1) not started yet or 2) not a real fight.
@Longherin On the contrary, Garm would only seem the biggest threat until one of the ladies gets a hit in. They deal way more damage than him. More damage=more pain=oh shit, they are the biggest threat!
So, if the fight already started, Garm wouldn't be the priority. No analysis needed.
So, if the fight already started, Garm wouldn't be the priority. No analysis needed.
@cor3zone again why are you counting both dps as one unit? why would the monster view both dps as one instead of 2 different individuals. the taunt works because it convinces that garm is the INDIVIDUAL with the biggest threat and so should be taken out first. and garm isn't just shouting, he does have a sword too and is swinging it so again, how is the monster viewing the two dps as a unit instead of as individuals?
"On the contrary, Garm would only seem the biggest threat until one of the ladies gets a hit in. They deal way more damage than him. More damage=more pain=oh shit, they are the biggest threat!"
except it has already been established that they are (especially amy) hitting the monsters at a lot faster rate than gram as such gram shouldn't be able to hold threat at all as by the time he's shouted or swung his sword the dps has already hit multiple times.
"On the contrary, Garm would only seem the biggest threat until one of the ladies gets a hit in. They deal way more damage than him. More damage=more pain=oh shit, they are the biggest threat!"
except it has already been established that they are (especially amy) hitting the monsters at a lot faster rate than gram as such gram shouldn't be able to hold threat at all as by the time he's shouted or swung his sword the dps has already hit multiple times.
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All these ridiculous comments about aggro (hate). Amy does less DPS than Kamiyu, so Garm will not have more problems with aggro holding. Amy has got her own aggro value and Kamiyu has got her own aggro value. They don't do Fusion as seen in Dragonball.
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what's happening in the comment?
aggro(hate) thing? (i have no idea but..)
* as a Tank no one can take the aggro from it except fellow Tank that overlaps Provoking Skills or high DPS characters like her with dragon mode or characters with nasty Debuffs that results to high DPS..
* aggro from different character doesnt stack.. even with same provoker it doesnt stack (it just refreshes the timer on some instances)..
btw.. not gonna lie.. that macho is stronk.. feels like a Tank with Damage Reduction skill..
still waiting for Status Resistant Tank.. or Phy/Mgc Reflector Tank..
aggro(hate) thing? (i have no idea but..)
* as a Tank no one can take the aggro from it except fellow Tank that overlaps Provoking Skills or high DPS characters like her with dragon mode or characters with nasty Debuffs that results to high DPS..
* aggro from different character doesnt stack.. even with same provoker it doesnt stack (it just refreshes the timer on some instances)..
btw.. not gonna lie.. that macho is stronk.. feels like a Tank with Damage Reduction skill..
still waiting for Status Resistant Tank.. or Phy/Mgc Reflector Tank..
@burdrann They are a unit because they are both DPS. Deal with the guy(s) trying to kill you. Garm's taunt, 'Combat Cry', has been shown to increase his own threat-level, not decrease everyone elses. He becomes a bigger threat, but if there are two very dangerous attackers, meaning very big threats, nearby...
@kuzunagi13 Yeah, to pull aggro you need to taunt, or deal tons of damage. Which is why I suggested a mage behind Garm, to deal heavy damage while Garm intercepts enemy attacks. And like I've stated before, the world doesn't work on game logic, at least not anymore. Tsutomu learned how to deal direct damage with a simple debuff skill, meant to obscure vision. So game rules, like aggro rules, are extremely likely to not be applicable anymore.
You pulled that comment out of context. That was if the world worked on real-world logic. It doesn't. But it doesn't work purely on game logic, either. So your idea of an MMO tank won't work.
@kuzunagi13 Yeah, to pull aggro you need to taunt, or deal tons of damage. Which is why I suggested a mage behind Garm, to deal heavy damage while Garm intercepts enemy attacks. And like I've stated before, the world doesn't work on game logic, at least not anymore. Tsutomu learned how to deal direct damage with a simple debuff skill, meant to obscure vision. So game rules, like aggro rules, are extremely likely to not be applicable anymore.
@cor3zone
As someone who's gotten hit before in a fight (well, "fight"), taking more damage doesn't mean you shift your attention from the person in front of you, for the simple reason that shifting your attention involves getting hit *again* by the person that's already in front of you. It's way more effective and efficient to take down the currently visible target before moving on to a different one, otherwise you just get disoriented and things get bad.
Like...taking martial arts, the first thing you get taught is some variation of "don't lose focus, don't get flustered", because the instant you do your defense is gone, and that's just a bigger invitation to get hit. Focusing on a new challenger seems like it's losing focus and, in this specific situation, I don't think Garm is newbie enough to just stand there as the monster looks around for who just backstabbed it.
Also, considering the whole "two dangerous attackers" business...shouldn't it be "three dangerous attackers"?
I mean, the distinction between a 'tank' and a 'dps' character doesn't exist in the real world. If you're getting hit, then the person doing the hitting is dangerous, pure and simple. The idea of having damage work as a means for a creature to determine threat level is a wholly videogame-world idea.
Animals in the real world have tusks n'shit for the sake of intimidation, because the entire point is to be dangerous *before* the fight starts. Once it starts the relative level of danger stops mattering: one good hit and you bleed to death, nothing stopping it. No HP bar to drain, and all that.
To put it in a different way: when I was sparring with a black belt I knew he was dangerous BEFORE he kicked me on the side of the head, not after, and if you were to ask me whether if his or his brother's kick felt harder I could honestly tell you that I was too busy in pain to judge. I mean, I can tell afterwards that his brother kicked harder (dude was heavier) but in a life-or-death situation I would likely not be alive long enough to make that kind of value judgment.
Anyways.
If the party had a mage then I feel like the show would just be over at that point, since the MC would have his raid party and just rumble through everything.
As someone who's gotten hit before in a fight (well, "fight"), taking more damage doesn't mean you shift your attention from the person in front of you, for the simple reason that shifting your attention involves getting hit *again* by the person that's already in front of you. It's way more effective and efficient to take down the currently visible target before moving on to a different one, otherwise you just get disoriented and things get bad.
Like...taking martial arts, the first thing you get taught is some variation of "don't lose focus, don't get flustered", because the instant you do your defense is gone, and that's just a bigger invitation to get hit. Focusing on a new challenger seems like it's losing focus and, in this specific situation, I don't think Garm is newbie enough to just stand there as the monster looks around for who just backstabbed it.
Also, considering the whole "two dangerous attackers" business...shouldn't it be "three dangerous attackers"?
I mean, the distinction between a 'tank' and a 'dps' character doesn't exist in the real world. If you're getting hit, then the person doing the hitting is dangerous, pure and simple. The idea of having damage work as a means for a creature to determine threat level is a wholly videogame-world idea.
Animals in the real world have tusks n'shit for the sake of intimidation, because the entire point is to be dangerous *before* the fight starts. Once it starts the relative level of danger stops mattering: one good hit and you bleed to death, nothing stopping it. No HP bar to drain, and all that.
To put it in a different way: when I was sparring with a black belt I knew he was dangerous BEFORE he kicked me on the side of the head, not after, and if you were to ask me whether if his or his brother's kick felt harder I could honestly tell you that I was too busy in pain to judge. I mean, I can tell afterwards that his brother kicked harder (dude was heavier) but in a life-or-death situation I would likely not be alive long enough to make that kind of value judgment.
Anyways.
If the party had a mage then I feel like the show would just be over at that point, since the MC would have his raid party and just rumble through everything.
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@Longherin
Also lines like these would work wonders:
^This! I did not know how to express it, but yeah that is the situation that was bugging me.
The thing she can do is... talk. She is avoiding the public because it is trouble some cus of all the questions form reporters and common ppl. All she needs to do is face them and tell the truth to anyone that inquires and correcting ppl that say otherwise. Not by praising Tsukumu but about her position/situation of being threatened/blackmailed. There will be ppl in denial and say that she is just being threatened, but there will also be ppl that whole heatedly believe her and those that stand on the fence. In the end it will be who do you believe more? The one you idolize into a mob frenzy for or the organization of journalist.
Also lines like these would work wonders:
"Please, who do you think I am? Do you really think a weak white mage could threaten me?"
"The Journalist really hates Tsukumu and is just using me to slam him and sell papers. Don't believe everything you read."
"Tsukumu isn't threatening me. What's the mater; don't you believe me? I finally defeated the shell crab and now this bogus story comes up. *starts crying*"
"The Journalist really hates Tsukumu and is just using me to slam him and sell papers. Don't believe everything you read."
"Tsukumu isn't threatening me. What's the mater; don't you believe me? I finally defeated the shell crab and now this bogus story comes up. *starts crying*"
@CraniumAmbiguity
On one hand, I want to believe that Amy talking can solve problems, on the other...they live in an environment with serious information monopolization. Amy can talk, but essentially any talking she does detracts from her own value because it's the story of "the girl being manipulated" versus "that one guy we all universally agree we hate" and she...well, she can't really do much like that.
Like the biggest issue isn't that she can't talk, it's that unless her audience has a reason to change their minds, they're not going to change their minds. The more she goes against the current without "evidence" the less weight she will have once (if) there is a shift in public recognition of the MC.
(I have evidence in quotes because the evidence obviously exists, it's just a matter of interpretation).
Actually, thinking about it, there's a very real possibility that the MC will get his win condition without ever getting to clear his name. As far as everyone is concerned the MC is surrounded by giants, and there is...uh...no real reason for anybody to care about him even if he clears the 100th stage.
On one hand, I want to believe that Amy talking can solve problems, on the other...they live in an environment with serious information monopolization. Amy can talk, but essentially any talking she does detracts from her own value because it's the story of "the girl being manipulated" versus "that one guy we all universally agree we hate" and she...well, she can't really do much like that.
Like the biggest issue isn't that she can't talk, it's that unless her audience has a reason to change their minds, they're not going to change their minds. The more she goes against the current without "evidence" the less weight she will have once (if) there is a shift in public recognition of the MC.
(I have evidence in quotes because the evidence obviously exists, it's just a matter of interpretation).
Actually, thinking about it, there's a very real possibility that the MC will get his win condition without ever getting to clear his name. As far as everyone is concerned the MC is surrounded by giants, and there is...uh...no real reason for anybody to care about him even if he clears the 100th stage.
@Longherin Well, I've had no traditional martial training, but I've been in a fair few fights. Deal with the guy who can bring you down in a few hits first, not the one who takes forever to bring down.
While Garm is obviously dangerous by our standards, considering the size and resilience of some monsters, and the difference between his damage output and Kamiyu's/Amy's, he's pretty much a child. Garm's already admitted to stuggling as a DPS, and he's currently focusing entirely on tanking, not doing damage. So your "three dangerous attackers" might as well be two martial arts masters, and one kid with a stick.
While Garm is obviously dangerous by our standards, considering the size and resilience of some monsters, and the difference between his damage output and Kamiyu's/Amy's, he's pretty much a child. Garm's already admitted to stuggling as a DPS, and he's currently focusing entirely on tanking, not doing damage. So your "three dangerous attackers" might as well be two martial arts masters, and one kid with a stick.
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