Merge "Shoujo Ai" tag with "Yuri" :planned:

[Plykiya]

@the_descolada
LGBT is quite a large umbrella term. Splitting genderbender into genderswap and crossdressing definitely left a bit of a hole regarding the categorization of trans/intersex/etc stories. I also think that LGBT may be too big of an umbrella term, due to the overlap with lesbian/gay/bisexual content. When I had split genderbender into genderswap and crossdressing, there were only about a dozen stories left out which were a mix of trans stories or intersex stories (freaky girl on notsogirlboy stuff, shoujo is a weird demographic). Comparatively, there's over 6000 manga that have lesbian and gay tags on MangaDex, and would be even greater in number if we added in all the bisexuals

I would honestly just say, it's better to rely on MangaUpdates for finding stories that feature trans characters. Their tags are much more thorough about it than we can ever get. We've rejected LGBT in the past for being way too broad of a category, and we rejected transgender for not having enough total content

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

My gosh 13 pages...

 

[alidan]

why merge shoujo ai with yuri? I know some people have problems with shoujo ai because they are so weeb they bleed ramen, but it makes a clear distinction between yuri subtext and actual lesbian interactions.

it's always annoying with a group labels something yuri and 20+ chapters later and the end of the story, you realise you needed goggles the whole time. There is no confusion on how to describe a manga, there may be some when it comes time to switch it from shoujo ai to yuri but even then authors prior works and the general state of chapter 1 make it obvious which category it goes into.

what I want to avoid is two background characters holding hands getting lumped into yuri.

granted if mangadex wants to implement something like a sliding scale for the romantic involvement or how gay something is going from
this person likes senpai
this person really 'likes' senpai
this person went out with senpai
this person held senpais hand
this person went out with senpai and it was mutual
this person showed sempai their feelings
this person made senpais desk kun dirty
this person fakced sanpai

along with
a side character kind of looks like they are looking at the same sex
this background character may be on a date with the same sex
this recurring character may swing both ways
this recurring character DOES swing both ways
the main character is conflicted
the main character is not conflicted and ok with it

I have read one to many stories where romance was the tag and all it ever amounted to was 'I like senpai' and so many yuri where im looking for when the manga confirms it and it just remains a 'yea its up to you to decided, I refuse to commit to anything' frustrating garbage. when i'm looking for a romance manga, i'm not looking for wishy washy 100+ chapters of indecisive bs, im looking for a relationship focused manga, but yuri as japan has it is too all encompassing covering everything from these girls held hands to the characters put out on the first date, and just having a smut modifier doesn't help in that regard, because that's not what i'm looking for, smut just means they didn't want to make hentai, hell, what I want is a kiss or admission to self or other that this is what the character wants, and this is typically where I see the line between shoujo ai and yuri being drawn.

sorry if this is a bit ranty, its just annoying seeing that its planned to make it harder to find the things I want.

 

[Plykiya]

@alidan > it makes a clear distinction between yuri subtext and actual lesbian interactions.
And so does our own system when they're combined.
"yuri subtext" where nothing happens? Then it won't have a romance tag along with either safe, suggestive, erotica, or pornographic rating depending on what you're interested in.

>actual lesbian interactions
Then it'll have a romance tag, along with either safe, suggestive, erotica, or pornographic rating.

>what I want to avoid is two background characters holding hands getting lumped into yuri.
This should never trigger a series to get tagged in the first place, tags should represent the series as a whole, not just a tiny appearance of it from insignificant characters.

>why merge shoujo ai with yuri?
Because shoujo ai is a term created by western fans, and it's usage is a bit off because it and yuri mean different things to different people depending on whether they're more familiar with the western or Japanese scene. We're moving completely away from both of these terms so that we can place them under "Girls' Love"

>I'm looking for relationship focused manga, not wishy washy 100+ chapters of indecisive bs
Romance doesn't have to lead into a relationship, this is just the general state of romance as a whole in manga. This is irrelevant to the use case of both shoujo ai and yuri, and you're better off using MangaUpdates to look for 'relationship' series

 

[Tamerlane]

I generally don't like Yuri, (I don't have anything against lesbians or homosexuality, it's just personal preference. For whatever reason, it just doesn't gel with me, but there's nothing wrong with the works themselves if judging from an objective/writing perspective.) but I don't really see anything wrong with combining tags because they're so similar that it's just semantics.

Other tags we have are very broad or don't hold such semantic distinctions, and honestly I would like more tags in general, but if we're applying a consistent standard, then we must combine them for ease of access. For instance, say we had a tag for "bara" and a tag for "buff dudes." Sure, you can make the argument that "buff dudes" doesn't imply homosexuality or explicit materials like "bara" does, but there's such a significant overlap that having multiple tags for it is redundant.

I would also note that I'd think tagging should be based on the main focal points of the series, so certain mangas may have GL/Yuri subplots or background events that aren't massive or relevant to the story overall, and so wouldn't be tagged the same way as a work where the main story is about two girls falling in love.

 

[Pokari]

^{@Plykiya said:}
Well we came up with a solution, but it's not going to be implemented until after our major site rework next year:

1. Merge Shoujo Ai into Yuri and merge Shounen Ai into Yaoi
2. Rename Yuri and Yaoi to Girl's Love and Boy's Love respectively
3. Overhaul the current system that depicts the level of sexual content, ranging from "safe" to fully pornographic (replacing the current hentai tag)

I'm super late to the party here, sorry.

To be clear, I 100% support this change, heck—I think I've advocated for it before.

But on an implementation note, I'd like to get in a friendly reminder in edge-wise, that everyone over in BL has been using "yaoi/shounen-ai" distinction quite consistently as "contains explicit sex, or not", unlike the ongoing problem with the Yuri tag that prompted this discussion. But furthermore, crucially, the BL side of the site has also kind of semi-ignored the evolution of the "smut" tag to refer to the presence of sexual content (instead of, y'know, a particular sort of explicit material—contrived or blatantly oversexed stories—which is how the BL manga scanlation teams and readers have pretty much continued to use it).

So please bear that in mind when making conversion scripts / database overhauls, because stumbling across explicit dick-in-face BL when you weren't intending to is... a whole experience.

And I absolutely can assure you as someone who spends a lot of time in BL-land, that anything with the "yaoi" tag right now is explicit (quite often quite explicit, redrawn dicks and all), and also usually that's the only indication as such. (A decent bit of it probably even rightfully belongs in the R-18 side of the site, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms! And not one solvable with programming.)

 

[jak]

I never understood why shounen-ai and shoujo-ai existed when they don't in Japan. Just because it doesn't show sex, doesn't mean it isn't yaoi or yuri.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

My goodness 13 pages what has this thread become

 

[justforthelulz]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN

Off-topic, but I just realized your avatar is a GIF and not a still image.
That blows my mind about as much as finding out there is apparently no distinction between "yaoi / yuri" and "shounen-ai / shoujo-ai" in Japanese.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@justforthelulz May the power of the bath loli compels you to search for inspiration upon these desolate lands

 

[Newholder]

For me, shoujo-ai would create the wrong association. You know that shoujo-ai means pedophile in japan right ?
Also for the yuri community, that tag doesn't exist. Also, there's no Shoujo-ai community.

 

[Ore]

Shameless bump.

 

[comedyxtragedy]

Does this mean shoujo ai an explicit yuri will become one? Well I don't mind as long as people give correct tag.
I want fluffy yuri, not smutty one

 

[Aoitenshi]

I'm wondering where's the problem with using certain terms that have already been widespread.

"Boy's Love" and "Girl's Love" are nonsense from Japan's transliteration, just like shoujo-ai and shounen-ai mean nothing like what they are originally. Changing from one to another makes no point in my opinion. In fact, it only makes things more confusing since you will be using more uncommon tags in the western audience.

If you want to argue that we need to use proper language with proper meaning, then why leave out the terms 'hentai' and 'ecchi'?

 

[MrIncognito]

@Ore
If there was a particular reason you had to bump this thread, you probably should have mentioned it

 

[Izaya_Onisai]

Shoujo Ai and Yuri shouldn't be merged, as shoujo ai is mostly a very close loving friendship between girls, and Yuri is love between girls on a Sexual orientation basis.

 

[sleepyknight]

@Izaya_Onisai, its sort of weird that this distinction is constantly reiterated in western spaces but doesn't exist in the work's country of origin at all. works that are labelled shoujo ai here are published and distributed alongside works that would be considered yuri, and even on this site ive seen works with explicitly lesbian relationships get labelled shoujo ai. its a completely arbitrary category and again it doesn't exist in japan where stories with lesbian themes are simply considered girls love

 

[421cookies]

New challenger for MD top 10 strongest bot

 

[hazzack]

i don't know what kind of reasoning this bot has to do their bot thing in suggestion forum. maybe someone with korean language skill could enlighten us.

 

[ABCsOfLife]

Huh?? This is necro lol