Moto-Sekai Ichii Sub-chara Ikusei Nikki ~Hi-Player, Isekai wo Kouryaku-chu!~ - Ch. 56

[Lolitsnugget]

I think you're projecting. Which you do a lot.

I see... people that start the whole "projecting" nonsense typically do have something going, so I wont pry any further.

Through a better written story. Adding lots of events that don't challenge the characters, which it doesn't if you just add a plot-solving character, makes for a series of events rather than a story. The solution is to rewrite it from a more base level.

Blaming me for continuing a pointless argument. You're saying I'm "reigniting" it, but you're at least as responsible yourself for keeping the flame going. I wasn't the one who claimed to want it to stop; that was you. But you kept going, which is against what you said yourself.

Blaming you? I said we should stop the argument because neither side is coming to an understanding.

Yes, you said that. I didn't. That's entirely made up by you, and 90% of your argument is based on that. That's what I was asking you about. How did you think I wanted him to be instantly great at politics when I never said anything of the sort?

You said you wanted him to grow. But growing (in this instance) would just make an unrelatable nonsensical story. He goes to another to become the best player (adventurer)... to be the best aristocrat? Adding to many elements to a story is like adding too many different spices to a dish. You said you wanted him to eventually get there... but how would he get there? This is taking a random person off the street to raise to be a major player in someone elses game. Its fine when thats the theme of the story, but this story isnt meant to be that.

And this time it was pulled a little too far. Before he struggled to get those people, and help them get better at their tasks. And things like her creating enchanted weapons that came as a surprise to him because it's such a pain to do are sort of similar, but that's minor and isn't actually necessary for the plot, unless it's brought up later on as a unique way of solving a problem.

The whole story has been him trying to get to the top as an adventurer. He needs a specialized blacksmith for the ultimate weapons to help him reach those heights. The same with why he got the the wolf girl and setup the other characters to flow well with his style of "play".

The amount of time I've seen you claim I've said something I didn't... Sure, harem isn't exactly my favourite part of a manga, but that comment was not about that.

I never said you claimed to hate it, but you said you didnt like it. I see it too often that that is why I wondered why not just blacklist? Harem stories typically are more about the girls (and the mcs relationship with them) and less about novel-like parts.

No, but one can expect a base level of story quality.

This story is rated pretty highly. Just because you do not like it, doesnt mean others wouldnt. I find the plot to be satisfactory. I wouldnt want it to get bogged down by elements that would only weigh it down.

And yet again, this is you strawmanning. You take an argument and pull it to its absolute extreme, and use that as the argument you argue again. Are you incapable of responding to arguments as written without exaggerating them?

Oh? "Are you incapable of responding to arguments as written without exaggerating l them?" Exaggerating? And you aren't doing the same? I keep pulling it to the extreme? You say, acting like you are being passive... this is why i said we should end the argument. We arent getting anywhere and you just keep trying to belittle me.

"Which is why it should've been rewritten. If you have plots where the only way to do them without bogging down the story is to just instantly solve them then you have a bad plot."

You are looking for a story with a deeper plot. Thats fine, but you will not get that out of this story. This one only touches deeper plot points every now and then. Its fine if you do not enjoy the story, but the rest of us do. I came to this story just wanting to see him rise to the top. Not for massive plot with slow progression. I read this solely for entertainment. If I wanted more in depth stories, I would go read the full LOTR series or something. You can say this story is bad, but that is just one opinion like how I say its fine. We should agree to disagree.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Blaming you? I said we should stop the argument because neither side is coming to an understanding.

You said that right here:

Im shutting down a pointless argument that you intend to keep reigniting for no reason.

You are blaming me while falsely claiming you're shutting it down. Thing is, as long as you're responding, you're keeping it going. You're not shutting it down.

You said you wanted him to grow. But growing (in this instance) would just make an unrelatable nonsensical story.

This is you not understanding proper story structure, so you claim the only way you can see is the only way possible. I recommend reading up on the topic before claiming knowledge, since it's too extensive for me to cover here.

I never said you claimed to hate it, but you said you didnt like it.

No, I said it happened. At most you can interpret it as me saying it's not conducive to good storytelling, but I didn't put a personal opinion on it at that point.

Exaggerating? And you aren't doing the same? I keep pulling it to the extreme?

Where am I doing it? I've already shown several times that you're doing it, though.

We arent getting anywhere and you just keep trying to belittle me.

I mean, if an objective description of your arguments sounds like belittling to you, I don't think the problem is with me.

This story is rated pretty highly.

You are looking for a story with a deeper plot. Thats fine, but you will not get that out of this story

Quality != popularity, as you've clearly demonstrated, thus puncturing your own argument.

 

[Lolitsnugget]

Thing is, as long as you're responding, you're keeping it going. You're not shutting it down.

Your post right after was saying I was running away. I just would rather not argue with random people on the internet about our opinions. We can just agree to disagree.

This is you not understanding proper story structure, so you claim the only way you can see is the only way possible. I recommend reading up on the topic before claiming knowledge, since it's too extensive for me to cover here.

Story structure for a manga? Everything has a different story structure. Going into a manga expecting it to be as fleshed out as a novel would be setting this up for failure. I doubt many come to mangas for that much lore.

Where am I doing it? I've already shown several times that you're doing it, though.

You have kept saying that this story is bad, but that is subjective.

I mean, if an objective description of your arguments sounds like belittling to you

no malice seen here.

, I don't think the problem is with me.

Not a single drop.

Quality != popularity, as you've clearly demonstrated, thus puncturing your own argument.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You may not like what they put out, but this is booked by over 50k people. They might see this as very high quality, even if you do not.
Literature, as a whole, is subjective opinion. People call Poe legendary for all his works he created. The sad part being he probably doesnt even know he created them with everything that was acceptable to use back then. One thing I remember throughout my time studying old literature was that it is mostly opinion, not necessarily fact.
If you are coming at this from a "higher education" standpoint, then I can see what you are arguing about/where you are coming from, that is where the problem likely first occurred (as with all text, it can be misinterpreted). But what im saying is that this is not something one would bring to a college or higher level to dissect. The story is accompanied by pictures, which is never really seen at such levels (though there is the occasional breakdown of similar stories) and has its own (Japanese style) flow to it. I know many people want to get into the heavier stuff, but the storytelling of most of these mangas tends to align with the "monthly reading" flow. It would have to present itself as willing to go in that direction beforehand, or it would lose readers who werent interested in that particular genre.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Your post right after was saying I was running away. I just would rather not argue with random people on the internet about our opinions. We can just agree to disagree.

Then you say that and stop posting. If you would rather not argue, you just stop. You don't keep posting, like you did. It's not a hard concept, but for some people it's very hard to actually put into practice.

Going into a manga expecting it to be as fleshed out as a novel would be setting this up for failure.

This is also an exaggeration. "As fleshed out as a novel," isn't what I said, and it's far out of scope with what I said. You keep doing this. I said it would be better if one part was rewritten to proper fit its own context. I asked for quality, not quantity.

You have kept saying that this story is bad, but that is subjective.

Also an exaggeration, and it's a redundant argument. I was only talking about one part, and not the entire story, so yet again you do that. If I say I want something, it's implied to be a subjective opinion. So you're interpreting a subjective opinion as objective for the purpose of shooting it down as subjective. Or in other words, you're phrasing it as if I'm somehow wrong by stating that, which is false, because you misinterpret what I say.

no malice seen here.
Not a single drop.

I mean, it's not like you have anything to come with here, considering how you tried to belittle me with "having a thing" and "being needlessly aggressive". Or at least, that's on the same level, which is why I said you're projecting. I'm not any more aggressive than you are, nor am I more malicious.

Literature, as a whole, is subjective opinion.

Yes, and I'm stating mine. Is there a problem with that?

If you are coming at this from a "higher education" standpoint

More specifically, largely independently taught writer. I do have a college-level education in writing scientific reports and some level in languages, but that's not entirely applicable here.

But it's not the standard I hold here, since, as you say, this is a manga, not a novel. However, a lot of story-writing techniques and structures are applicable to manga, since regardless of medium, you still have character development, story beats, and world building. How you communicate them to your audience differs, but the parts are all there, and below the surface they function in much the same ways.

It would have to present itself as willing to go in that direction beforehand, or it would lose readers who werent interested in that particular genre.

Some mangas do, and they're often popular. For instance, Frieren and Apothecary's Diaries have, from my standpoint, higher quality writing, and they're immensely popular. But you also have manga like Rent a Girlfriend that's popular.

The point is, I can want whatever I want, and argue whatever point I want in these comments. It doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it on the whole, since if I didn't, I probably wouldn't comment nearly as much, and maybe just drop it. Pretending I don't like it as a whole is yet another exaggeration of yours, by the way.

 

[Lolitsnugget]

Just gonna delete the above arguments because they would continue on back and forth without end (had a bunch written out, but i think its better to drop our issues and continue with the main conversation to prevent excessive time loss on either side from writing essays about how either side is wrong). Let us begin with the middle section.

Yes, and I'm stating mine. Is there a problem with that?

There is no problem. It is fine with to disagree on how a story is written.

More specifically, largely independently taught writer. I do have a college-level education in writing scientific reports and some level in languages, but that's not entirely applicable here.

Understandable.

But it's not the standard I hold here, since, as you say, this is a manga, not a novel. However, a lot of story-writing techniques and structures are applicable to manga, since regardless of medium, you still have character development, story beats, and world building. How you communicate them to your audience differs, but the parts are all there, and below the surface they function in much the same ways.

I think the issue I have with having it be so complex is all attributed to the very first page on the manga. He is someone who has not done anything in his life aside from playing that one game. Thats where I meant had the story started with him being an aristocrat, politicians son, something... more growth would make sense to me. It feels more like they were trying to emphasize just his ability to climb to the top and hide away all the other stuff. Cheap thrills? Absolutely.

Some mangas do, and they're often popular. For instance, Frieren and Apothecary's Diaries have, from my standpoint, higher quality writing, and they're immensely popular. But you also have manga like Rent a Girlfriend that's popular.

I agree. There are mangas out there with deep stories that are great/popular.

The point is, I can want whatever I want, and argue whatever point I want in these comments. It doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it on the whole, since if I didn't, I probably wouldn't comment nearly as much, and maybe just drop it.

We can definitely have our own opinions and argue whatever we want. We will likely not see eye to eye on everything, but that is acceptable. We are our own self, after all. At least we argued our points, showing we did care enough about the story to warrant it.

 

[AnotherDuck]

I think the issue I have with having it be so complex is all attributed to the very first page on the manga. He is someone who has not done anything in his life aside from playing that one game. Thats where I meant had the story started with him being an aristocrat, politicians son, something... more growth would make sense to me. It feels more like they were trying to emphasize just his ability to climb to the top and hide away all the other stuff. Cheap thrills? Absolutely.

A character with a very narrow or limited amount of experience is a good start for a character, since it means a lot of room for growth. There's also a difference between what a character wants, and what they need. Even if you have, for instance, a revenge plot that's entirely focused on that, having the character learn other things in the process makes for a better story.

I'm also not arguing that it's necessarily him that should grow in this particular part of the story. Another character can grow as well, and we've seen plenty examples of the other members growing into their roles. However, in this case, it was just someone he summed who instantly solves the problem without any character growing or even putting in much effort. I find it worse writing by the standards of what we've seen so far in the story.

The rest I agree with or don't need to comment on.

 

[TigerXra]

Lmao, that was probably my first time laughing at segs scene. Like, I know it was supposed to be romantic moment (usually), but it was almost nonexistent there. And he's describing like it was last greatest battle of his life. That contrast cracked me up.

 

[REDRED]

I feel like I missed something? How did this progress to seggs?

 

[maindish]

I feel like I missed something? How did this progress to seggs?

He offered a reward, she chose dick.

 

[REDRED]

He offered a reward, she chose dick.

Ah. I see.

 

[jhart3313]

Am I forgetting something? Why are they suddenly having sex?

 

[maindish]

Am I forgetting something? Why are they suddenly having sex?

Again, he offered her a reward, she chose dick.