Mushoku Tensei ~Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu~ - Vol. 20 Ch. 94 - Norn Greyrat

[NateVG]

@Amplify
I've skimped over you guys conversation a bit and felt like I might as well try to resolve(?) it somehow as well, I even reread the chapter to get the whole context, and search up the word "Rape definition" to be doubly sure.

First off, we all agreed that Lilia like Paul at the present right? But, and I quoted, from Lilia's responded in the same chapter when Rudeus asked if she liked his father "Well, back then, we never said that we loved each other so..." this can mean that they have no feeling for each other back then, so I think it's valid to say that he "raped" her, REGARLESS of whether she like it or not when it happened, as Lilia herself affirmed that he "forcefully" took it from her mean she has not consent during or after the act.

The literal definition of rape (yes I took it from google) is "Rape is defined in most jurisdictions as sexual intercourse, or other forms of sexual penetration, committed by a perpetrator against a victim without their consent." No mater what anyone said, if Lilia herself did not publicly say "No he did not rape me" at anytime or place, then it is, by all means, rape.

And @Amplify the reply you addressed to Placi and Nanian, to me it's a whole boomerang since it can all be bounced back like this:

Innocent until proven guilty. Prove him guilty. If he is guilty, why can you not do something as simple as show it being called rape, either by her or the author? You want me to disprove something you have not yet proven, which is a fallacy.

Guilty until proven innocent. Prove him innocent. If he IS innocent, why can't you do something as simple as showing proofs that he, in fact, did not rape her? And I don't think you can, since most of Naian's and PLaci1982's arguments came from them trying to interpret the material itself, not pulling things out of their own asses.

1: One bit of a problem we're having is that we don't know exactly what she said, as this is a translation of an interpretation of the LN. The translator + typesetter have gone with "forcefully taken" rather than the author or anything like that, which can be as simple as "I had my first experience with him, but he was very rough/not gentle" being way too many words to fit in the balloon and not flowing as well as it does by reducing it to two words. That doesn't really apply if it was "rape" though, that's short enough that they'd happily use that word if that's what she said. The other way to consider it is that she's talking to (what she thinks is) a 6 year old child and is using euphemisms, but that you could argue in either the rough sex or the rape direction. She may think of him as being a little adult rather than 6 though, given how on the following pages she elaborates that she knows him to be far smarter, wiser and more unusual than you'd give him credit at first glance. Who can say?

1. You know the other problem is that we know exactly what she was trying to say, "forcefully taken" and "I had my first with him, but he was very rough" in a sentence are in no way have the same meaning, the reason of it not fitting in a bubble is pretty silly, like look even I can shorten it like this
"In fact, I had my first experience forcefully taken by him back then."
"In fact, I had a very rough/hardcore first night with him back then."

2: Honestly? Given all the context and what little clues we have I think he was reported by somebody else rather than Lilia, possibly a jealous 3rd party since I have no doubt somebody like Paul would have those - my most likely candidate being a woman who wasn't happy that Paul's attention was going towards Lilia rather than her.

2. Honestly? Given all the contexts and the clues we have, on what basic do you think there's another woman reporting it to have Paul getting expel? Like sure, she did that, then what? He got kicked out and "the woman who wasn't happy that Paul's attention was going towards Lilia rather than her" got NOTHING out of that, worse off he was known as a womanizer, he would fuck that imaginary woman you got on your mind any day of the week if she was there with him. A bit of a strong word at the end by me there but you know what I mean.

3: Sure, the problem is we have no way to tell the difference.

3. This is just matter of perspective, in my eyes it's mean she had no feeling for him back then looking at her expression, but she now does. She never said she was okay with him having segg with her back at the time, or anything about having feeling for him back then for us to tell.

4: Here's the thing: I think that yes the academy labelled it as a "rape incident" sure, and that Lilia may well have used them labelling it as such as leverage to get a job at his household, but I don't think that Lilia herself really believes it was rape and (again) while Paul deserves plenty of negative titles I definitely don't see Paul being an actual rapist, that's a bit too far for him.

4. Here's the thing: I can agree with your first point, but there was no indication that Lilia didn't believe it that it wasn't rape and (again) while Paul might be a better guy in your eyes, there's not enough evident, and knowing his personality in the past no one can trust him.

In conclusion? Dawg you're too paranoid with the word "rape", think of it like the different in value of an item for different country and culture. We called it rape, you said no since for you the word "rape" should be an action far worse than just forcefully having segg without consent. That's it. You don't need to go out of your way to think about any kind of reason to prove it's right. There was no point that needed to be proven in the first place. The chapter was from SIX YEARS ago

 

[Amplify]

@Amplify
First off, we all agreed that Lilia like Paul at the present right? But, and I quoted, from Lilia's responded in the same chapter when Rudeus asked if she liked his father "Well, back then, we never said that we loved each other so..." this can mean that they have no feeling for each other back then, so I think it's valid to say that he "raped" her, REGARLESS of whether she like it or not when it happened, as Lilia herself affirmed that he "forcefully" took it from her mean she has not consent during or after the act.

"This can mean that they have no feeling for each other back then", not really no, because if that were the case she'd have simply said "no" and that'd have been that. There would have been zero need to say that sentence if there we no love, therefore there was some degree of feelings of love between them but they simply hadn't outright confessed to each other as of yet. Thus the rest of your paragraph and assertions are not valid as a result.

@Amplify
The literal definition of rape (yes I took it from google) is "Rape is defined in most jurisdictions as sexual intercourse, or other forms of sexual penetration, committed by a perpetrator against a victim without their consent." No mater what anyone said, if Lilia herself did not publicly say "No he did not rape me" at anytime or place, then it is, by all means, rape.

So if she doesn't speak up for any reason, for example being too shy to do so under all the pressure that this big hullabaloo has caused, then it's automatically rape? How about if she did speak up saying it wasn't rape, but her statements were dismissed as just her being threatened by the big bad noble Paul? We don't even know if she did or did not speak up and why, but you've already come to a conclusion and judged as such even without that.

And @Amplify the reply you addressed to Placi and Nanian, to me it's a whole boomerang since it can all be bounced back like this:

Guilty until proven innocent. Prove him innocent. If he IS innocent, why can't you do something as simple as showing proofs that he, in fact, did not rape her? And I don't think you can, since most of Naian's and PLaci1982's arguments came from them trying to interpret the material itself, not pulling things out of their own asses.

"I say he raped her, despite her not saying it was rape anywhere and the author not saying it was rape anywhere (for example, in an interview or a tweet) and it's up to you to disprove that!" is not a valid argument, it is just the Russel's Teapot fallacy and nothing more. The default assumption is that there was no rape; the person claiming the existence of the rape needs to provide positive evidence for us to believe his claim. He can’t just insist that we accept his belief as the default position. My refutations come directly from interpretations of the material too, and my original argument that a rape victim would not go and seduce their rapist has yet to be refuted at all by him, you, or anybody else. "Stockholm Syndrome" is not a catch-all get out of jail free card for anything and everything.

1. You know the other problem is that we know exactly what she was trying to say, "forcefully taken" and "I had my first with him, but he was very rough" in a sentence are in no way have the same meaning, the reason of it not fitting in a bubble is pretty silly, like look even I can shorten it like this
"In fact, I had my first experience forcefully taken by him back then."
"In fact, I had a very rough/hardcore first night with him back then."

The second one sounds like shit and doesn't get the meaning across, making her sound like that's her kink instead. "Rough sex" was also the other guy's interpretation of my words but not necessarily the only way it can go down. If it was rape, they would have translated it as rape, as I keep saying.

2. Honestly? Given all the contexts and the clues we have, on what basic do you think there's another woman reporting it to have Paul getting expel? Like sure, she did that, then what? He got kicked out and "the woman who wasn't happy that Paul's attention was going towards Lilia rather than her" got NOTHING out of that, worse off he was known as a womanizer, he would fuck that imaginary woman you got on your mind any day of the week if she was there with him. A bit of a strong word at the end by me there but you know what I mean.

Not the strongest argument of mine, I was just spitballing hypotheticals for who could have done the reporting and why, if it was not Lilia herself. People don't always have grand, elaborate plans that benefit themselves when lashing out in anger, it's usually just a matter of hurting the other party as hard as they can. Doesn't even have to be a woman; it can be as simple as somebody seeking revenge, wanting to get rid of him, or otherwise to tarnish the Greyrat name.

3. This is just matter of perspective, in my eyes it's mean she had no feeling for him back then looking at her expression, but she now does. She never said she was okay with him having segg with her back at the time, or anything about having feeling for him back then for us to tell.

Again, if they had no feelings for each other then the conversation would have been very simple:
Rudeus: ...Ms Lilia did you ...um... like father?
Lilia: No.
Simple as that. Instead she admits there were feelings between them, they simply hadn't outright confessed them. The word "did" is key here, as it excludes all current feelings and is only looking at her feelings at the time.

4. Here's the thing: I can agree with your first point, but there was no indication that Lilia didn't believe it that it wasn't rape and (again) while Paul might be a better guy in your eyes, there's not enough evident, and knowing his personality in the past no one can trust him.

Sure, but the same applies in reverse: there's the same or even less indication that she does believe it was rape, because she doesn't say it was rape there or anywhere else. Occam's Razor states that the simplest solution is often the correct one. The simplest solution for her not saying it was rape, is because it was not rape or that at least she does not believe that it was rape. Very simple.

In conclusion? Dawg you're too paranoid with the word "rape", think of it like the different in value of an item for different country and culture. We called it rape, you said no since for you the word "rape" should be an action far worse than just forcefully having segg without consent. That's it. You don't need to go out of your way to think about any kind of reason to prove it's right. There was no point that needed to be proven in the first place. The chapter was from SIX YEARS ago

I didn't say that. 'Rape' to me is the act of forcefully having sex with somebody at a time or in a place or manner etc that they are not happy to do so. If multiple adults who are capable of consenting, desire to have sex with each other, then proceed to have sex with each other, then best of luck to them because I don't call that rape. I have not been given any reason to believe that Lilia did not want to have sex with Paul at that time, or that she was not capable of consenting, thus I don't believe that Paul is a rapist.

Eight years and change ago, MangaDex was not the birth of manga, manga existed before that on places like its predecessor Batoto and Batoto's predecessor from around '08 - '10 whose name escapes me atm.

 

[lemurmoo]

Yeah, I can understand Aisha's drive to prove herself, but her taking out her anger on Norn is wrong.
Honestly Zenith's family is to blame for almost everything. Her inferiority complex, Aisha feeling like she isn't part of the family, everything thing is their fault.

Yeah, the grandma is a complete asshat, and she will appear every so often specifically to show how much of an asshole she is, especially to Aisha, who doesn't deserve any of it. Both Aisha and Norn are troubled, and as they're kids living through the biggest catastrophe that world's ever known, it's not a big surprise how they ended up.

But even the grandma gets a bit of a comeuppance. MT isn't a story about people just being assholes just to be the cackling villains the heroes have to defeat (except one particular character who is seemingly exactly that ahem). It turns out proper communication is always the most important thing, and this short Norn arc is basically an early sign of it.

People need to keep remembering that Norn and Aisha were really really young when a lot of this happened though. Even within their world, a lot of this happened b4 they were even eligible to go to school. That's when traumas get deep-seated

 

[dereth]

You can apply basic rule of law to any setting containing society.
Okay then, you want to play it your way? Paul is not a rapist because there's no rule of law to judge him to be a rapist. Simple, no need for me to defend him because you can't judge him to be guilty to begin with, without the rule of law.

Sauros's crime was being in charge of the area when tens of thousands of people died and they needed somebody to take the blame.

Spoiler

She didn't use her name or status as leverage, neither did her father or anybody else.

Doesn't really matter, he made the claim with exactly zero evidence and it can be dismissed with zero evidence, just wanted to point out an actual in-novel example of a noble not getting away with shenanigans which basically runs counter to his theory.

Wouldn't the "leverage" be implied? It's not like her connections to those powerful figures was a secret, right? Being associated with people of power is a power in itself, I think.

Also, I haven't really followed the discussion you guys are having. I was simply skimming, read that, and decided to chime in on a whim, so I can't really comment on anything else.

 

[Naian]

On the matter of rape @Amplify @NateVG @PLaci1982 , I found this reddit comment to a reddit thread asking whether Paul raped Lilia :

https://www.reddit.com/r/mushokutensei/comments/lwefwo/_/gph64oy

Pretty much says it's raped, further in the comment thread are links of tweet made by official translator & two unrelated translators weighing on the nuance of the matter.

 

[NateVG]

On the matter of rape @Amplify @NateVG @PLaci1982 , I found this reddit comment to a reddit thread asking whether Paul raped Lilia :

https://www.reddit.com/r/mushokutensei/comments/lwefwo/_/gph64oy

Pretty much says it's raped, further in the comment thread are links of tweet made by official translator & two unrelated translators weighing on the nuance of the matter.

HOLY- the OP in that post AINT NO WAY LMAO

Bro actually want the word "rape" to be slapped onto the sentence itself otherwise whatever we do it'd just come back to "But umm ackchyually the word rape wasn't in it therefore it's not rape by MY definition 🤓"

On a serious note though, we should stop, this kind of discussion shouldn't be stretched out more than it should, we couldn't get to any point of agreement to resolve the problem. @Amplify I'm sorry but if we keep denying each other points then it'll just be a never ending loops, worse part is that there're some like me or dereth chiming in to try and resolve it, the loop would just get bigger and bigger.

Even I would feel bad for those uninvolved to see this long ass discussion as well, it's not even related to Norn in this chapter at this point. You should read the reddit post that Naian found, whoever's side you're on in there at the end is valid, we are not here to judge, but to try and prove a point in a discussion, again if there's nothing we can agree on then it's a lose-lose for both sides, because there's no point, I believe nothing we say can change your mind and vice versa. I won't join the discussion after this, since Is It Odd That I Became an Adventurer Even If I Graduated From the Witchcraft Institute? just got a new chapter so I gotta go now, so have fun guys, peace.

 

[zarian2]

Only here to add to the TWO HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE comments on this chapter. Holy Jeebus.

 

[xSauriaNx]

I know Norn's struggles and deeply relate to her.

And this is why I kinda had this "hate" towards the kid. Literally seeing the god awful position I was in back when I was brat. It's literally choking me down. The image presented to me by the mirror is mentally malicious.

It's this really harrowing weight placed on you that just tortures you mentally then your peers openly mocks you as an outlet of their own insecurities takes the cake. I know my demons and I know how bad I can get once I let my vision tainted red.

I'm just glad that the manga portrayed it very well the scenes depicted in the novel. And glad that from this point on, Norn have achieved absolution to her problem. It's not the end of it but she made the huge leap. Me? Took me almost a decade to have some semblance of control through hobbies (reading and gunpla).

 

[PLaci1982]

On the matter of rape @Amplify @NateVG @PLaci1982 , I found this reddit comment to a reddit thread asking whether Paul raped Lilia :

https://www.reddit.com/r/mushokutensei/comments/lwefwo/_/gph64oy

Pretty much says it's raped, further in the comment thread are links of tweet made by official translator & two unrelated translators weighing on the nuance of the matter.

(Link saved and archived.)

 

[yisuhz]

Too lazy to look it up and find the chapter, but can anyone remind me why he was hitting Paul? It makes sense it was traumatic for her, but I can't remember how "deserved" it was and how much of the situation Norn could've understood once they tried to tell her they made up and that Rudeus isn't usually like that with his dad.

 

[PLaci1982]

Too lazy to look it up and find the chapter, but can anyone remind me why he was hitting Paul? It makes sense it was traumatic for her, but I can't remember how "deserved" it was and how much of the situation Norn could've understood once they tried to tell her they made up and that Rudeus isn't usually like that with his dad.

Rudy and Paul met in the end of Chapter 33, and they fight in Chapter 34.
Basically both Rudy and Paul misunderstood the situation the same way: They thought that the other had a leisure nice time with girls while he himself has gone true hell.
Paul did hit 1st, but Rudy overpowered him in close quarter combat and started beat up Paul, when Norn arrived.

 

[yisuhz]

Rudy and Paul met in the end of Chapter 33, and they fight in Chapter 34.
Basically both Rudy and Paul misunderstood the situation the same way: They thought that the other had a leisure nice time with girls while he himself has gone true hell.
Paul did hit 1st, but Rudy overpowered him in close quarter combat and started beat up Paul, when Norn arrived.

Thanks, that was precise enough to make this scene make sense and now i can also refresh my memory on it later since you gave me the chapters it happened.

 

[Amplify]

On the matter of rape @Amplify @NateVG @PLaci1982 , I found this reddit comment to a reddit thread asking whether Paul raped Lilia :

https://www.reddit.com/r/mushokutensei/comments/lwefwo/_/gph64oy

Pretty much says it's raped, further in the comment thread are links of tweet made by official translator & two unrelated translators weighing on the nuance of the matter.

Not what I'd call absolutely 100% definitive, but it's something sure and makes it closer to a coinflip in my mind if he did or didn't.

On a serious note though, we should stop, this kind of discussion shouldn't be stretched out more than it should, we couldn't get to any point of agreement to resolve the problem. @Amplify I'm sorry but if we keep denying each other points then it'll just be a never ending loops, worse part is that there're some like me or dereth chiming in to try and resolve it, the loop would just get bigger and bigger.

Sure, I'm not that invested in the conversation, I just think that the word "rape" gets thrown around way too liberally nowadays for how serious of a word it is. That and @PLaci1982 has the worst arguments I've ever seen in my entire life and it's fun to easily tear them to shreds, don't think I don't see you hiding behind the legs of these two young man.

 

[Naian]

Not what I'd call absolutely 100% definitive, but it's something sure and makes it closer to a coinflip in my mind if he did or didn't.


Sure, I'm not that invested in the conversation, I just think that the word "rape" gets thrown around way too liberally nowadays for how serious of a word it is. That and @PLaci1982 has the worst arguments I've ever seen in my entire life and it's fun to easily tear them to shreds, don't think I don't see you hiding behind the legs of these two young man.

I guess I understand where you come from, I did watch some videos where men's life got destroyed under sexual assault charge, that turns out to be false (and most of the time the women simply got a slap on the wrist). Also people on twitter like to call loli as CP, as if to say lolicon actually hurt real, breathing children as opposed to simply liking fictional character with loli body type in anime art style, thus watering CP as no actual children are being abused.

 

[ForTheJerusalem]

This is nice and all, but all i can think about is "UOHHHHH CUNNY 😭 😭 😭 😭"

 

[LiAuN]

You may want to re-read chapter 5. Rudy made that up, to make his mom not hate Lilia.

this wasn't covered in the anime but it was covered in the LN (i think it was after that chapter)Paul and Lilia were taught in the same dojo so while yes at that time in their house Paul did in fact not do it to lilia he did in fact rape her back in the old days when they were still at the dojo (incidently enough something simmilar happened with ghyslaine)

 

[LiAuN]

Lmfao bruh how did the manga get this part better than the anime

you some kind of time traveler? cuz this part hasn't happened in the anime yet.

 

[LiAuN]

I think it’s inferiority complex? Hell if I went through all that i still won’t forgive him.

problem is an inferiority complex isn't any of his fault he's just doing his best for the stuff about his fight with the dad that's an entirely different thing and up to the individual if they actually want to forgive but and inferiority complex is in in of itself a problem with how you view others and not about something that they are doing.

 

[LiAuN]

I did expect a little more out of it, like peeling some of the layers back in a conversation or through ruderus' self reflection talk.

But can work as well at times.

i mean we got all of that in last chapter though. and they may still have a conversation about what to do going forward after this.

 

[LiAuN]

He didn't rape her. That was a lie that Rudeus made up to keep the family from falling apart and keep Lilia around.

Chapter 5, page 14, Rudeus himself admits it is a lie.
https://mangadex.org/chapter/d5a8aa9f-8bbe-4171-bc5c-eedb5dcb10f6/14

LN chapter 10.5 (is told from Lilias perspective ) directly tells that when they were still in the dojo (aka when paul was even younger and training with her) that Paul forced himself onto her