Nidome no Natsu, Nidoto Aenai Kimi - Vol. 1 Ch. 1 - Second Summer

[Talismaster]

@mommunism

And how is confessing to her supposed to change whether she had lived a fulfilling high school life? Yeah, it gives her something to think about, but that thing is good, which makes it oppose your argument.

Wrong. It being good is just your opinion, your perception of it. Clearly, the girl didn't take it well. So it wasn't a good thing. Maybe you'd like for someone to tell you they love you on your death bed, but the heroine clearly wasn't prepared for it.

If she's upset because she was in denial, that is 100% her fault. You can't freak out at someone because their attempt to help you revealed that you were lying to yourself. Anyone that does shit like that is completely delusional, to the point where I would consider ending such a friendship immediately.

Again, it seems like you only think in terms of what you would do, not what a person with a significantly smaller lifespan would think. She was clearly unprepared to feel such a way about it, or buried her feelings because she knew she'd never live long enough to appreciate his feelings, only short enough that she'd die with new regrets and no way to clear them. And while in a condition where simply an outburst would cause her health to decline to the point of dying the next day.

Just picture any situation with those parameters that doesn't involve a deathbed. Imagine freaking out at a friend because they say they would've chilled with you at a party you were too pessimistic to invite anyone to. That's some certifiably insane shit.

That's not even part of the topic. The whole point is that there IS a deathbed.

And again, the one thing most people wish for on their deathbed is that someone had loved them specifically. It's a basic human need. He gave her exactly what he should have expected her to want. Blaming him is even more delusional than her freaking out, given the circumstances.

Again, you're injecting yourself here. Some people are more greedier, needier than you, where they can't just smile and die with just mere sentiment. This girl had the option to get life-extending surgery, and selfishly chose not to. This was her fault, and while she was trying to run away from the fact, the MC's confession digs up the that fact from the deepest recesses of her mind and destroys her determination to run away from the truth that she had more to live for, because she was short-sighted and didn't want to stop having fun. It's definitely her fault, and the MC is being melodramatic in his own way as well from guilt.

Maybe I'm analyzing this too much, but it's certainly more thoughtful than you're being. Earlier, you said "She could have ruined his life just because he was trying to comfort her." And while you're only seeing it as a flaw, you're not seeing it in her shoes. The way I see it, she's unreasonably blowing up at him BECAUSE she is flawed. BECAUSE she wants to be loved. And now she won't live long enough to truly experience that love. She's a greedy little thing that chose a short-lived life of fun in high school, as opposed to what? The trope of being the sickly girl that rarely leaves the hospital and gets constant screenings and different surgeries just to stay alive, but never really live?

 

[mommunism]

@Talismaster Someone liking you is not good "in my opinion," it is good period, as objectively as it could be. Her taking it well doesn't make it not a good thing, and this argument is very obviously inane. Someone taking rape well does not make it good, and someone not taking a well-intended gift well does not make it bad, it makes THEM bad. If you're offended by the idea of affection it will always be your fault (in this case, by way of delusion, as you suggested).

I'm not thinking of what I would do. I literally told you explicitly, multiple times, that people IN HER CIRCUMSTANCES are the ones who think the way I described, and if anything I'm far removed from the well-studied social norm I'm talking about. And yes, the same situation without a deathbed absolutely is part of the conversation, because the deathbed is the only reason you're defending her. You don't care whatsoever about what makes sense here, you'll defend her to the end because all you can think of is the overwhelming pity you feel. The crux of your entire argument is that it's fine for her to be awful because she's dying, which you should have just said clearly from the beginning, because it's a pointless argument to have.

Honestly, I do disagree with your argument, but I'm not insulted by it like I am by your interest in the awful writing. The main reason I responded to your original comment is because it seemed like you were buying into this shit-tier premise. The whole point of this trope is going back in time to fix a mistake, but the notion of him going back years to prevent his last-second good intentions from exposing her delusions is so far removed from that it's laughable. It's an incredibly lazy way to jump on the time travel bandwagon since laymen think every story involving it is profound. This is basically this genre's equivalent to isekai titles that have absolutely nothing to do with the protagonists previous life, it's just tag-baiting.

 

[Talismaster]

Someone liking you is not good "in my opinion," it is good period, as objectively as it could be.

Wrong. There is always a context. Being liked by a stalker or serial killer isn't "good period". The fact that you heavy-handedly state it is so "period" shows you are unwilling to compromise or think from other perspectives.

Her taking it well doesn't make it not a good thing, and this argument is very obviously inane.

She clearly didn't take it well. My argument is valid, even if I'm not necessarily correct in my conclusions.

Someone taking rape well does not make it good, and someone not taking a well-intended gift well does not make it bad, it makes THEM bad. If you're offended by the idea of affection it will always be your fault (in this case, by way of delusion, as you suggested).

"it makes THEM bad" is arguable, but yes, I agree. She was being unreasonable. Probably because she was DYING.

I'm not thinking of what I would do. I literally told you explicitly, multiple times, that people IN HER CIRCUMSTANCES are the ones who think the way I described, and if anything I'm far removed from the well-studied social norm I'm talking about.

True. But I'm not talking about those normal people. We're talking about someone that was clearly not happy to receive a confession on her death bed. I'm not saying receiving a confession was a bad thing. I won't argue that her outburst doesn't make her a bad person. But her actions clearly go in contrast of where your expectations lie. Earlier, you said "Even if that wasn't the case I don't understand how any new regret could come from his confession. She either regrets not spending more time with him as a friend or regrets not spending more time with him as a romantic partner." Clearly, we can see she was ready to die without any regrets. Then this confession pushed her over the edge. Why would this happen unless she was genuinely angry? How does getting angry at a confession "clear a regret"? She clearly didn't appreciate it at the moment, despite your insistence that most people would be happy to be in her position as opposed to dying without anyone confessing. I think you're being narrow-minded.

And yes, the same situation without a deathbed absolutely is part of the conversation, because the deathbed is the only reason you're defending her. You don't care whatsoever about what makes sense here, you'll defend her to the end because all you can think of is the overwhelming pity you feel. The crux of your entire argument is that it's fine for her to be awful because she's dying, which you should have just said clearly from the beginning, because it's a pointless argument to have.

Wrong. It is not pity. I argue for her case because I believe characters can be flawed. I believe flaws make characters more human, unless a character is only entirely made of flaws. If a person acts irrationally, I want to understand why they'd act that way. I believe my conclusion that her selfishness and despair lead her to lash out at a perfectly good friend. Even if I'm wrong, even if reality is disappointing, we're only on chapter 2, and I'm curious enough to see why and how this happens.

EDIT: As I said earlier, if she's as selfish as I believe she is, she'll blow up on the MC again. I want to see that happen. Such moments usually reveal their mind to the dense MC, and although the dramatic irony makes it less impactful to the audience, sometimes something the readers miss or could only theorize about gets confirmed. See Kaguya wants to etc. by Aka.)

Honestly, I do disagree with your argument, but I'm not insulted by it like I am by your interest in the awful writing. The main reason I responded to your original comment is because it seemed like you were buying into this shit-tier premise. The whole point of this trope is going back in time to fix a mistake, but the notion of him going back years to prevent his last-second good intentions from exposing her delusions is so far removed from that it's laughable. It's an incredibly lazy way to jump on the time travel bandwagon since laymen think every story involving it is profound. This is basically this genre's equivalent to isekai titles that have absolutely nothing to do with the protagonists previous life, it's just tag-baiting.

And that's absolutely fine in my opinion. There's nothing in this story that's particularly groundbreaking or original. People just like manga and mindlessly eat it up for their amusement. Time travel is no different from isekai. Both are wish fulfillment.

However, it seems you're unable to readily defend your arguments. If you're trying to shame me for liking trash, then all you've done is go and show that you can't back up your statements. You've turned from attacking my argument and supporting your own, to attacking the very topic itself, and me for liking it? Shame on you, man.

 

[mommunism]

@Talismaster I don't know why you didn't @ me. Being liked by a stalker/killer IS a good thing. It isn't their affection that hurts you, it's their delusions, which I already said are bad. I also meant to say that her not taking it well doesn't make it not a good thing, hence the subsequent argument.

Everyone thinks that characters can be flawed. I never said she's not allowed to have issues, I just said that this is an issue. Again, my contention was that you bought into the premise, which made the guy out to be the one with flaws, even though he clearly isn't.

If you agree that the writing is shit and you have no qualms about it, you are detrimental to the industry. Having no standards is not a good thing. If you're not even going to try and care about what makes a manga decent then the authors have no reason to even try writing a decent manga.

I've defended my arguments perfectly well, you've just been attacking a strawman for most of the conversation. Your fourth paragraph, which I skipped over, is defending the fact that she's upset despite my point clearly being that her reason isn't justifiable (which you agree with), not that it doesn't exist. I already explained why the first and fifth paragraph are based on a strawman as well, which makes the vast majority of your comment pointless. Unlike you, I'm not interested in shaming. I'm trying to convince you not to support bad practice. You can pretend my argument has turned away from yours if it makes you feel better, but you, the manga, and your point are all very interconnected here, and they're all detrimental to manga quality in general.

 

[Talismaster]

@mommunism

I don't know why you didn't @ me.

Totally slipped my mind to do it when switching from phone to PC when I made that reply. My bad.

Being liked by a stalker/killer IS a good thing. It isn't their affection that hurts you, it's their delusions, which I already said are bad.

That’s aside from the point. To make things as blunt as I can, sometimes people do not appreciate the affection of others. You say that objectively, that it is a factually good thing to receive affection. I disagree. Affection can be unwanted, in the harshest of manners. Ask any woman that’s ever had a “nice guy” she’s had to “friend zone”.

I also meant to say that her not taking it well doesn't make it not a good thing, hence the subsequent argument.

Forgive me for misunderstanding, but you used a double negative, and here you used a triple negative. I’m pretty sure I read them correctly, but you just failed to put your own words the way you’d have liked.

Everyone thinks that characters can be flawed. I never said she's not allowed to have issues, I just said that this is an issue. Again, my contention was that you bought into the premise, which made the guy out to be the one with flaws, even though he clearly isn't.

You never said she’s not allowed to have issues, yes. But you’re clearly struggling to sympathize with the heroine though, based on your first reply to me. If you were pretending to be stupid and were beating around a bush so you could drop some sort of secret that this manga had little promise or quality, too bad. You’ve surprised literally nobody. I literally asked people for more manga like this because reading this first chapter gave me nostalgia for something I’ve read, but forgotten.

And what is this? You’re moving the goalposts. You accused me of only feeling for the character because she was a pitiful, dying girl. Bullshit. I explained my case, that I enjoy flawed characters, that her unreasonableness gives her character. I know the guy isn’t necessarily the one at fault. But that’s just how the story goes, because if he didn’t, he’d move on, forget her, and the plot would end. He had to be a flawed over-emotional angsty teenager. That’s his role.

If you agree that the writing is shit and you have no qualms about it, you are detrimental to the industry. Having no standards is not a good thing. If you're not even going to try and care about what makes a manga decent then the authors have no reason to even try writing a decent manga.

One of my personal tricks to enjoying life is to have low expectations. It allows you to enjoy more things than you normally would have. Allows you to not be disappointed as easily. So, I can happily drink up whatever isekai or trash stories come out, and at least give them the chance to be looked at. That aside, I find it laughable that you think we can help the industry at all. Unless you’re constantly voting on online polls or buying products, reading pirated and illegally translated and uploaded manga doesn’t do shit for our precious authors. Your cries for better quality are not alone, but from where we are, it falls on deaf ears unless it actually reaches the mangaka and the publishers.

I've defended my arguments perfectly well, you've just been attacking a strawman for most of the conversation. Your fourth paragraph, which I skipped over, is defending the fact that she's upset despite my point clearly being that her reason isn't justifiable (which you agree with), not that it doesn't exist. I already explained why the first and fifth paragraph are based on a strawman as well, which makes the vast majority of your comment pointless.

Just because I agree with you on a point doesn’t make my argument turn to moot. If we can’t come to an agreement, whatever. I’m definitely open to any creative critiques or takes on the series, but you aren’t offering anything to the table. This just cements my assumption that you never had an intention to hear me out, especially since your opinion on quality and trash is already so strong.

Unlike you, I'm not interested in shaming. I'm trying to convince you not to support bad practice. You can pretend my argument has turned away from yours if it makes you feel better, but you, the manga, and your point are all very interconnected here, and they're all detrimental to manga quality in general.

Very funny. Did you think I’d be some wannabe poet because I was comparing a sickly girl to a flower? Did that make you so mad you had to reply to me and try to bait out some sort of “gotcha” moment like this? “Waaaah, the quality is bad, and you’re part of the problem!” Boohoo, dude. Why don’t you go tell the scanlator how bad they are for choosing to waste their time translating this? I enjoyed this manga. If you can’t, why are you still around? Clearly, you had to reply to me to prove a point. Normal people just drop it and leave it behind, not argue over the first chapter’s comment section. You cared enough to check the comment section, find my reply and respond, even though I didn’t @ you.

 

[mommunism]

@Talismaster I'm getting really tired of repeating myself and helping you comprehend things, so I'll do it once more in this comment and then be done. The argument for a girl turning down a "nice guy" is literally the exact same as the last one. She doesn't have a problem with his affection, she has a problem with his deluded actions. A similar argument could go for every other situation. Affection doesn't hurt people, only misguided actions resulting from it can, and the protagonist here took no such actions and never would have had the opportunity to.

A triple negative was necessary for the context and I already acknowledged that you read it correctly.

I wasn't beating around any bush or struggling to sympathize with the heroine. I reacted to you sympathizing with her EXCLUSIVELY. Why the fuck would I ever make an argument in her favor? I'm not here to circlejerk about what was right with your framing, I'm here to say what's wrong with it. I'm not moving the goalposts just because you can't make the obvious connection between pity and this premise, and don't give me this stupid "I enjoy flawed characters" shit. We're not talking about what you enjoy. We're talking about what is acceptable, and you're going to pretend that interest, and not pity, is what drives you (as if that's any better), after telling me the deathbed is the whole point. This is a blatant lie.

If you're going to spew platitudes at me, at least think about them first. Arguing that lazy writing isn't a problem is not having low expectations, it is having no standards. I have low expectations of manga. That does make me happier with them, but it doesn't mean I'll suddenly pretend bad writing is better than it is, and it especially doesn't make me say that writing bad is not a bad thing. Whether we have an influence on the manga (which we necessarily do in terms of popularity) doesn't change the principle you're defending either.

I didn't say you agreeing with me made your argument moot, I said you attacked a strawman despite agreeing with my true argument, which very obviously does make your argument moot.

I don't know what you're calling very funny. If it's the shaming thing, it wasn't a joke. You literally said "shame on you" after getting upset because you thought I was shaming. I don't know why you think I see you as a wannabe poet either, or what you think the "gotcha" in that quote is. But yes, the quality is bad, and people (you) who defend bad quality are bad for the quality. This is not even remotely controversial. I don't know why you're asking me why I'm still around and then answering the question with the obvious answer yourself. If you're actually this upset that I care about manga quality, you're the one who doesn't belong in the comments. But yes, I did go through the great effort of refreshing my page when I woke up, lol.

 

[Talismaster]

@mommunism
Thanks for proving me right. You can dance around it all you like. You’re basically just fishing for a creative way to shit on others and the manga just because you’ve got a critique on how bland it is, or you think it gives you some invisible moral high ground for having “better taste”.

No wonder you’re incapable of sympathizing with a simple cliche.

 

[mommunism]

@Talismaster So you're just now realizing I'm trying to critique the manga, and you think that a critique makes me incapable of sympathy. I didn't even mention taste once. Way to stay true to the strawmans and horrendous comprehension skills.

 

[Vergift]

So...practically, the MC got friendzoned really hard, right?

 

[budifelt]

What is this, you want to suffer again?

 

[ngkn92]

I hate kid story.
Nothing makes sense at all.

 

[Raydnt]

She probably accepted her death, but with his confession it only wanted to make her live.
Which made is harder since she was definitely gonna die.
If he was gonna confess, he should have done it while she still could have gotten treatment.

 

[Shewy92]

Reminds me of Let Me Eat Your Pancreas and Your Lie in April, except one of those had

Spoiler

a relatively happy ending

.

 

[ichi24]

Good thing this manga probably gonna have good ending

Bad thing the more i read the more i hate myself

 

[kaitouk166]

ok after seeing this i think this is enough

 

[XDcute9999]

WEE WOO WEE WOO WEE WOO
FBI ALERT FBI ALERT

 

[wewedamdam]

duh don't just leave a letter saying "I'm sorry" wtf

explain it. you're gonna wreck him with guilt for long as he life. say something like "I'm happy you say that, but i already accept my death, sorry for getting mad at you. love u too. pls find another girl. I'm death lmao" or something

 

[SpecialProjectY]

Giving hope on the deathbed, smooth brain there...

 

[BakedBanana]

I wonder how he'll fuck it up in the second loop?

 

[Xalphire]

Damn that went downhill... Literally