Onii-chan Is Done For! - Vol. 9 Ch. 83.9 - Minato-kun is Done For? (Full Version)

[burem]

gay road inevitable.

 

[smolbaka]

I actually agree with you on this. The trans community has a tendency to create and cling to certain narratives for dear life. (it doesn't help the world often demands they account for their own existence thus necessitating cohesive narratives)
The problem is that often the narrative can leave a LOT of people out in the cold or unrepresented. Including otokonoko and general enbies.

A major narrative I've always disliked is the whole... "egg awaiting to hatch" concept, where the existence of their ideal gender identity is pre-destined. That can be true for a lot of people but it's not a x=1 y'know? It wasn't true of me, anyway.

I'll definitely concede that it's textually more interesting for this gender bender manga to have one gender bender character (Mahiro) and one otokonoko (Minato). That said if people enjoy the idea of Minato as a nascent trans girl, I can definitely see it and hope they're not too disappointed when the canon isn't likely to go that way. Not because I don't think an otokonoko can't be a great way to explore that liminal gender identity space (hello Bridget) but because Onimai just isn't the kind of work that dives deep into identity.

It appears the discussion of trans is opened every time we are in this scenario of "boy who likes crossdressing" or "boy who likes being cute/feminine"

People are basing and starting this discussion solely on these parameters. It tells me people cannot leave crossdressing male and femboys be as they are, that their identity is up for debate just for existing.

The appropriate time to start this conversation should be when the character themselves starts seriously doubting their identity as a man. Not because he started to dress up like a girl.

This trans thing starts right off the bat, and most times if not all, it never goes in that direction in the end.

Like I previously mentioned, gender norms/roles are being reinforced here. That's a big main thing that's happening whenever I see this pop off.

 

[MidnighTea]

People are basing and starting this discussion solely on these parameters. It tells me people cannot leave crossdressing male and femboys be as they are, that their identity is up for debate just for existing.

The appropriate time to start this conversation should be when the character themselves starts seriously doubting their identity as a man. Not because he started to dress up like a girl.

I mean, I agree with this. That the discussion always escalates to this and rapidly is problematic in some regards. Not just for people who are "into" femboys and otokonoko, but nonbinary and genderfluid-identifying people. The latter of whom who might feel like they're being ignored (or even borderline erased) and might feel intimidated to rain on parades.
This is why I said earlier in this very thread that I personally would wait for the "smoking gun" of Minato showing outright discomfort in performing male. (mind you, not all trans people experience dysphoria)

So please understand, I actually agree with everything you're saying.

However, know what might help you understand the people frustrating you? In much of the early 2000's and even into the 2010's, a lot of young trans people were discouraged from self-identifying. They were often told it doesn't "count" unless they had their brains scanned in some way. Or had some kind of diagnosis done. Or "had it" since childhood. If we didn't meet like every stupid criteria put forth, we'd be told "you're just a crossdresser who is going too far". Some of us have some pretty nasty scars from older trans people telling us this. Treating the crossdresser identity as some kind of slum for perverts they could banish us to for failing to perform.
Thankfully these days we don't buy that BS -- we call trans people touting this nonsense "truscum" or "transmedicalists" and they're not allowed to make the rules in our communities anymore.

So yeah... you can see why when we see a femboy or crossdresser in media, we get really excited to support them if they want to go further with it. Not to be like our insular, gatekeep-y predecessors. And you know what? Sometimes that's a good thing. Bridget from Guilty Gear did go further with it. And I'll be there with open arms if Minato does.
But I must reiterate: I completely agree with you. Some of that general enthusiasm would be better if it was tempered. Not just for lover of femboys like yourself, but like I said above; I want to be supportive of my enby, GNC and genderfluid friends by not overly-reinforcing or assuming a binary.

 

[NinjaGoemon]

If people recall part of the reason Mahiro will never fully commit is because the author states it would no longer be a gb story. So Mahiro is always left on the edge as a result. I wouldn't be surprised if (simply for author reasons) Minato is left in a similar boat.

Getting aroused from your own reflection is fairly common for trans people at the start though. Women are excited by being women just as men are excited by being men.

 

[ReikoLupus]

I also would like if the perception to a person going a bit too far with their enthusiasm about the identity of a character was both made less or was taken less aggresively.
There are many occassions where a person wanting it goes "It can't be any other way! Accept reality!" while a person not wanting it goes "It couldn't be like that! Accept reality!".
It's pretty common for people theorizing if the character could be trans to get responses of people taking it unnecesarily negatively, as if a fight was about to start or they were trying to throw politics into it.
But, in the end, how a character identifies and how they express themselves is just another facet of the character that can be discussed.
Discussing about if a character is trans or a femboy is like discussing if Kumagawa is really unlucky or if he's sabotaging himself.
It's just another facet of the character that people can think about, talk about, hear what other people thouight about it, and exchange their thoughts and opinions about it.
In the end, that's why we come to Comment Sections after all.
To express our opinion, and read the opinion of other people. Because hearing the opinion and thoughts that another person had about a work you like is fun.
Treating a group of people as troublemakers or politicians in disguise because they want to have an interesting discussion about a specific facet of a character is getting in the way of people having fun discussing their thoughts and opinions about that work you like.

...Unless you want to discuss about how Onimai is bad and we shouldn't like it.
Then you are wrong, I hate, and you are a big dumb poopy head! XD.

 

[smolbaka]

Sometimes that's a good thing. Bridget from Guilty Gear did go further with it. And I'll be there with open arms if Minato does.

It's just "natural character development" for a femboy to go trans. That's what you may think right? Regardless I see many others say this, oblivious or not, to how they are reinforcing gender stereotypes.

Thess discussions is always unnecessarily inserted where it's inappropriate. Instead of theorizing if Minato is trans how about we just enjoy how cute he is instead? Not everything revolves around trans...

I'm not getting into Bridget discourse, but I know what many japanese people, and few otokonoko artist/mangaka I follow felt about this, and what he's still tagged as on sites like pixiv. I'll leave it at that.

 

[ReikoLupus]

Thess discussions is always unnecessarily inserted where it's inappropriate. Instead of theorizing if Minato is trans how about we just enjoy how cute he is instead? Not everything revolves around trans...

And who's the one to decide they are inappropriate?
It may end being wrong, of course, and show that in the end he isn't Trans.
But does that matter?
People see an interesting character, and they want to talk about that character.
The character's identity is just another subject that can be discussed about, another of the multiple facets of the character to talk with other people, and talking about a character you like is always fun.
The points and thoughts given as to why Minato could be Trans are fun and interesting to read.
The points and thoughts given as to why Minato could be an Otokonoko are also fun and interesting to read.
Why determine that one side should shut up and stop the conversation, when we can talk about our thoughts of the different facets of a character we like with other people that also like that character?

 

[smolbaka]

And who's the one to decide they are inappropriate?
It may end being wrong, of course, and show that in the end he isn't Trans.
But does that matter?
People see an interesting character, and they want to talk about that character.
The character's identity is just another subject that can be discussed about, another of the multiple facets of the character to talk with other people, and talking about a character you like is always fun.
The points and thoughts given as to why Minato could be Trans are fun and interesting to read.
The points and thoughts given as to why Minato could be an Otokonoko are also fun and interesting to read.
Why determine that one side should shut up and stop the conversation, when we can talk about our thoughts of the different facets of a character we like with other people that also like that character?

Let's say a trans character was introduced and every time there's a discussion if they might be a femboy

That's really inappropriate isn't it? So why is theorizing a femboy is trans, not?

For people who respect gender identity you sure don't when a crossdressing boy is involved.

It's like they're blank canvas to you.

 

[ReikoLupus]

Let's say a trans character was introduced and every time there's a discussion if they might be a femboy

That's really inappropriate isn't it? So why is theorizing a femboy is trans, not?

For people who respect gender identity you sure don't when a crossdressing boy is involved.

It's like they're blank canvas to you.

And why should it be inappropriate?

If they have their reasons to believe that may be the case, and explains their thought process that led them to that conclussion, then it would be something interesting to read and discuss with that person.

We may not end agreeing with each other, but seeing the thought process and rationality of a person that led them to reach a different answer than me is interesting.

It's not like I have to defend with cape and sword the Trans identity of that character, it's all fiction in the end, and discussing about the facets of a character is fun, even if I don't agree with the perspective of the other person.

Those types of discussions could lead to interesting and fun new thoughts that one may not have had before. For example, I came to this Comment section thinking that Mahiro is Trans, and some comments made me think "Ah, maybe Mahiro is Agender".

 

[MidnighTea]

It's just "natural character development" for a femboy to go trans. That's what you may think right? Regardless I see many others say this, oblivious or not, to how they are reinforcing gender stereotypes.

Honestly, when you put it that way? I think any direction is natural. It's natural character development for a femboy to become a demon. Or an angel. Or a furry. Reassessing their gender identity is just one possible route. Which yes, I consider Bridget as having done.
Is it so weird I can see Bridget as being otokonoko/femboy and having developed a cross-gender identity? Like, both at the same time? I personally don't see them as being mutually exclusive. And to keep on topic, I can see that happening with Minato too if he canonically gets wind of Mihari's wonder drug.

As an aside, I wish you'd take what I'm saying in good faith. I don't how much more amicable I can be than having already said "I completely agree with you" twice. I want us both to have nice things. I apologize if I'm assuming hostility that isn't there, but I wanted to clear the air.

 

[smolbaka]

And why should it be inappropriate?

If they have their reasons to believe that may be the case, and explains their thought process that led them to that conclussion, then it would be something interesting to read and discuss with that person.

We may not end agreeing with each other, but seeing the thought process and rationality of a person that led them to reach a different answer than me is interesting.

It's not like I have to defend with cape and sword the Trans identity of that character, it's all fiction in the end, and discussing about the facets of a character is fun, even if I don't agree with the perspective of the other person.

Those types of discussions could lead to interesting and fun new thoughts that one may not have had before. For example, I came to this Comment section thinking that Mahiro is Trans, and some comments made me think "Ah, maybe Mahiro is Agender".

It is inappropriate, as I mentioned before in this thread, people see a crossdressing boy, and automatically think he wants to/may transition. Invalidating boys who simply like being feminine. I'm sure trans people experience that right? So why is it different for femboys who just want to exist and be respected in their own regards of personal identity?

It's not rocket science to see how wrong and backwards that thinking is too. It's rude to break down crossdressing men as just a blank slate. These are boys, not "non binaries", "transfems", "trans girls", or whatever.

Plus, Japan doesn't have these terms. It's needlessly injecting western ideals on a foreign nation with an entire different view on gender itself.

Honestly, when you put it that way? I think any direction is natural. It's natural character development for a femboy to become a demon. Or an angel. Or a furry. Reassessing their gender identity is just one possible route. Which yes, I consider Bridget as having done.
Is it so weird I can see Bridget as being otokonoko/femboy and having developed a cross-gender identity? Like, both at the same time? I personally don't see them as being mutually exclusive. And to keep on topic, I can see that happening with Minato too if he canonically gets wind of Mihari's wonder drug.

As an aside, I wish you'd take what I'm saying in good faith. I don't how much more amicable I can be than having already said "I completely agree with you" twice. I want us both to have nice things. I apologize if I'm assuming hostility that isn't there, but I wanted to clear the air.

I remember you being in various threads on crossdressing manga, often talking about transness. if you think I'm being hostile I'm not, I'm just cautious of your intentions.

You may agree with me but I don't know if you actually really do.

Anyways I'm peacing out. I said all I wanted to say.

 

[ReikoLupus]

It is inappropriate, as I mentioned before in this thread, people see a crossdressing boy, and automatically think he wants to/may transition. Invalidating boys who simply like being feminine. I'm sure trans people experience that right? So why is it different for femboys who just want to exist and be respected in their own regards of personal identity?

It's not rocket science to see how wrong and backwards that thinking is too. It's rude to break down crossdressing men as just a blank slate. These are boys, not "non binaries", "transfems", "trans girls", or whatever.

Plus, Japan doesn't have these terms. It's needlessly injecting western ideals on a foreign nation with an entire different view on gender itself.

By asking why it was inappropirate, I meant why it would be to talk about the possibility of a transgirl being instead a femboy, not of a femboy being a transgirl.
You took it backwards there.

Discussion should be open after all, including if the other person has arguments you don't agree with.
After all, the point of arguments is seeing what other people think, how they reached that conclussion, and the interesting ideas that may come from it.
Even if they think that a transgirl could be a femboy instead.
People are complicated after all, so interesting takes on their psychology can be fascinating to read as long as they are well thought and take into consideration what is in the original material.

Also, you would be surprised about Japan. As regressive as they are in a lot of thing, they are more advanced than the West in a lot of stuf regarding Gender.
Especially in how to portray it in fiction.

 

[dy4y]

By asking why it was inappropirate, I meant why it would be to talk about the possibility of a transgirl being instead a femboy, not of a femboy being a transgirl.

I can answer that.

While I wouldn't say it's "inappropriate" per se to discuss whether a trans girl could instead be interpreted as a femboy in certain situations when the story calls for those discussions in most cases it is because it falls into the territory of transphobia. It presumes cis as default and doesn't want to take the trans character's word when talking about their identity. Take all the "debates" about Bridget when she was confirmed to be trans for instance. Or Lily from Zombieland Saga for that matter which were just as heated when episode 8 first came out.
And the reason why the opposite is not really a problem a lot of the time is because there isn't any systematic oppression towards gnc men that puts pressure on them to be trans. Our society is set up in a way that presumes cis as default and is thus much more willing to entertain the idea of a feminine man than it is a transgender woman. So inviting discourse that goes against that presumption is more acceptable than discourse that tries to enforce that presumption

This is more so true in cases like this manga where the characters haven't actually questioned their gender identiy so transfem people saying that this "femboy" character is acting in a similar manner as they did before they had figured themselves out yet doesn't really do any harm and invites an interesting though almost certainly unintentional interpretation to the story. Compare thes kinds of stories to ones like Otome Danshi ni Koisuru Otome which both explicitly states that Yuki is not trans and also features a trans woman as a contrast to boys who just like crossdressing.
Meanwhile, unless the story is set up in some sort of reverse reality where trans is presumed as default, you can't ever really point to a trans character and say that they haven't questioned themself and found their identity. So from the get go the talk about how this transgirl could actually read as a femboy is completely different.

 

[AverageDudeWithAveragePenis]

I can answer that.

While I wouldn't say it's "inappropriate" per se to discuss whether a trans girl could instead be interpreted as a femboy in certain situations when the story calls for those discussions in most cases it is because it falls into the territory of transphobia.

Calling it transphobia is a reason why you can't discuss it. That's the same thing as being inappropriate.

It presumes cis as default and doesn't want to take the trans character's word when talking about their identity.

Here's where the problem lies.
cis  is default. To be trans you have to have something going on in the brain. If it's not that, what makes someone suspected of being trans then? By my observation from this thread, being Gender Non-conforming apparently...

As evident from this image, femboys, tomboys, crossdressing doesn't exist. It's total erasure of them infact.

Like that guy said, following stereotypes doesn't make someone a boy or girl.

 

[dy4y]

Here's where the problem lies.
cis  is default.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisnormativity

At least try to google the words I used
(edit, I just realised I totally forgot to mention the term cisnormativity in the explanation. But yeah, that is what I meant when I said "cis as default")

 

[AverageDudeWithAveragePenis]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisnormativity

At least try to google the words I used
(edit, I just realised I totally forgot to mention the term cisnormativity in the explanation. But yeah, that is what I meant when I said "cis as default")

That wiki is a bunch of 2013's tumblr word salad holy hell.

Cisnormativity is widespread in society. It manifests in speech as a separation of cisgender and transgender people where cisgender individuals are considered "normal" and transgender people, an exception.

It reads like someone is mad at normal people for being normal.

 

[Kindablue]

Feels bad this is a no-progress-allowed SoL series so we're never gonna see these two dating or anything, but it's fun regardless.

 

[ReikoLupus]

Meanwhile, unless the story is set up in some sort of reverse reality where trans is presumed as default, you can't ever really point to a trans character and say that they haven't questioned themself and found their identity. So from the get go the talk about how this transgirl could actually read as a femboy is completely different.

Interesting.
In an ideal world, we would be able to simply discuss the facets of a character without it being a problem, without people coming and shouting about how people should stop talking about Trans characters or characters possibly being Trans, and the opposite too.

Unfortunately, people do cause problems with that, and a lot of the people will simply use "Arguments" like "It's not normal", "It's not the default, so the character isn't", "It's wrong", "The character never said anything about that", etc.
I love discussions with good and thoughtful arguments, and those things tend to crumble the second one makes a bit of research, since they aren't based on logic and thought, they are based on belief. Belief in a hateful system.

 

[AverageDudeWithAveragePenis]

Interesting.
In an ideal world, we would be able to simply discuss the facets of a character without it being a problem, without people coming and shouting about how people should stop talking about Trans characters or characters possibly being Trans, and the opposite too.

Unfortunately, people do cause problems with that, and a lot of the people will simply use "Arguments" like "It's not normal", "It's not the default, so the character isn't", "It's wrong", "The character never said anything about that", etc.
I love discussions with good and thoughtful arguments, and those things tend to crumble the second one makes a bit of research, since they aren't based on logic and thought, they are based on belief. Belief in a hateful system.

The research any time I look it up is usually a bunch of gobbledygook made by pseudo intellectuals who have personal, beneficial gain. Or maybe they're just stupid. Honestly, I'd call transgender a belief system.


But anyways,
What's really Interesting is you don't hear these trans discourse among japanese audiences. It's only you people who care so much about this.

Characters you like to call trans in the west, like Hideri, Felix, and now Bridget? Nope they're otokonoko in Japan. Which tells me this a western problem. That GNC isn't really as respected here.

 

[ReikoLupus]

The research any time I look it up is usually a bunch of gobbledygook made by pseudo intellectuals who have personal, beneficial gain. Or maybe they're just stupid. Honestly, I'd call transgender a belief system.


But anyways,
What's really Interesting is you don't hear these trans discourse among japanese audiences. It's only you people who care so much about this.

Characters you like to call trans in the west, like Hideri, Felix, and now Bridget? Nope they're otokonoko in Japan. Which tells me this a western problem. That GNC isn't really as respected here.

If you don't want to accept that research, that is a different subject.
It's documented across history how many different cultures across the world, from ancient Japan to North America before it was invaded and conqured, had concepts of Gender beyond the binary. A third Gender, or more different views regarding it.

With all the documentation of historical facts, and research made in modern day... Well, denying it is denying scientific facts.

And as for Japan not having Trans discourse or characters...
Have you heard of a little niche franchise called Sorcerous Stabber Orphen (Nostalgy bombing in 3... 2... 1...)?
Back in the 1990s, before the turning of the century, it already had a Trans character.
A Sorcerer that lost his body because magical stuff, and when they were trying to save him and bring him back, he asked to be brought back as a woman.
We learn about it after the arc where she appears, at the Ending when the MCs are starting their travel to their next destination. Before learning about it, she was simply an old friend of Orphen, a pretty charismatic female sorceress that was getting married soon to some guy that wasn't really important for the story.
Japan not only has Trans characters since before it became popular in the West, they manage them better.
The West manages it so badly...