Onna Chara de Isekai Teni shite Cheatppoi kedo Zako Chara na no de Medatazu Heiwa na Shomin wo Mezashimasu! - Ch. 4.2 - Susie returns home

[Fushiginiku]

... Can you give an example of how math can change? "Math" is entirely a human construct that is used to describe things. It's a system. It might need a translator, but changing the words for "two" "four" and "five" doesn't suddenly mean that puting two loaves of bread next to two other loaves makes a fifth loaf appear (and even in a world where that DOES happen, that's not math changing. That's a physical phenomenon of its own, which gets described... And not through math, since it doesn't deal with objects appearing out of thin air).

The things that are described by math can change (physics, for example). The sytax and notation can change. But neither of those are "math changing"

When one loaf of bread and another loaf of bread love each other very much...

 

[Fushiginiku]

Nebulous reincarnation logic makes it so he functionally is a 13 year old girl mentally speaking. Which is likely the author's way of preemptively getting away with not writing her as if she's an isekai protag.

I actually would love an Isekai story with where a 13 year old orphan with a piss Earth life wound up in this situation. It would hit a HELL of a lot harder.

 

[kaminomikan]

damn school arcs...

 

[NataBlu]

for once i see 2 man have an intense discussion bout math... even more its not even about ecuations(that is the wrong spelling i bet) and stuff

 

[ForTheJerusalem]

I just realised that we are getting half a chapter per month, so this is why everything feels like we are in molasses!

 

[Flanyl]

This man thinks every universe across the whole of existence is just earth but women have different animal ears.
Different universes and dimension are literally outside of your perception.
Everything you know to be true is nothing more than observations made HERE.
You cant imagine a new color so new colors cant exist? give me a break what you are doing here is textbook cognitive bias.

We're not talking about biology and the electromagnetic spectrum. We're talking about math. The language used to define the physical world. Of course ears can be different, but when you count them you will start with one, then two if the being has another, and then keep going if necessary. If you only count two ears, you can only convince me that 1+1=2. So I ask again, why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Kampfarsch]

We're not talking about biology and the electromagnetic spectrum. We're talking about math. The language used to define the physical world. Of course ears can be different, but when you count them you will start with one, then two if the being has another, and then keep going if necessary. If you only count two ears, you can only convince me that 1+1=2. So I ask again, why is that so hard to understand?

How would you have felt if you didn't eat breakfast yesterday?

 

[Chucholain]

Really fun calming manga, I didnt expect school arc but if its fantasy school then mc might have some trouble but with his/her gamer mind mc can probably do well, if its normal school stuff like reading writing,arithmetic then mc would be lowkey smurfing with his modern age knowledge

 

[sailorarashi]

Really fun calming manga, I didnt expect school arc but if its fantasy school then mc might have some trouble but with his/her gamer mind mc can probably do well, if its normal school stuff like reading writing,arithmetic then mc would be lowkey smurfing with his modern age knowledge

Yet another thing the manga glossed over. Susie's isekai translation powers only apply to the spoken language. She can't read or write it. So going to school is actually important here.

She's also supposed to be speaking very haltingly, stringing words together slowly, since she can has never spoken this language before so has to stop and think about every word.

 

[okkokko]

You literally can not know that
Something being true here has no bearing on how things function there
Whatever happens there is quite literally outside of your limited perception
The very idea of something being logical or not is native to this reality

This might feel like cheating, but it really isn't: we know that 1+1=2 because that is true by definition. 2 is defined as the successor of 1 (where 1 is the successor of 0, the zero element), or "1+1".
"1+1" and "thing defined as 1+1" must necessarily be equal regardless of universe.

One could kind of think of math as already existing in a separate universe from reality: one's mind (or paper), which is merely hosted by reality. A different reality could also host a mind that can use logic.

By the way, what is your maths background?

Also
There's these things called axioms. Irreducible "rules" of math that are true by definition.
Whenever we do math, there's an unsaid "if the axioms are taken to be true, then..." at the start of each sentence. (them being unsaid is a part of language.)
Or rather than unsaid, if you say "x is a real number", then you import the meaning of "real number", and that meaning includes "follows the axioms of real numbers"
If we bring those axioms to another universe, they will still work the same, because they are self contained and don't depend on the universe.
On the other hand, if we don't bring those axioms with us and find a similar-looking expression between worlds that has differing value, that's just because they aren't actually the same expression. One is "if our axioms, then X", the other is "if their axioms, then X".

It's a funny thing. Every true statement in math is essentially the same as "0=0".
They add no "information", counterintuitively.
For example, someone says "my hat is green". Then they say "my hat is not red". Then they say "if my hat were solely made of wool, it wouldn't be made of leather". The second statement adds no information, you could have already deduced it from the first. The third adds no information either. But all of mathematics is something you can deduce from previous things, or its own claims.

I'm an atheist, but even if I believed in God, I would think that God didn't create mathematics. Or at the very least didn't design mathematics.
As soon as He says "Let what is true be true" (for example), the rest of mathematics instantly bursts forth from it without His intervention.

 

[Kampfarsch]

This might feel like cheating, but it really isn't: we know that 1+1=2 because that is true by definition. 2 is defined as the successor of 1 (where 1 is the successor of 0, the zero element), or "1+1".
"1+1" and "thing defined as 1+1" must necessarily be equal regardless of universe.

One could kind of think of math as already existing in a separate universe from reality: one's mind (or paper), which is merely hosted by reality. A different reality could also host a mind that can use logic.

By the way, what is your maths background?

Also
There's these things called axioms. Irreducible "rules" of math that are true by definition.
Whenever we do math, there's an unsaid "if the axioms are taken to be true, then..." at the start of each sentence. (them being unsaid is a part of language.)
Or rather than unsaid, if you say "x is a real number", then you import the meaning of "real number", and that meaning includes "follows the axioms of real numbers"
If we bring those axioms to another universe, they will still work the same, because they are self contained and don't depend on the universe.
On the other hand, if we don't bring those axioms with us and find a similar-looking expression between worlds that has differing value, that's just because they aren't actually the same expression. One is "if our axioms, then X", the other is "if their axioms, then X".

It's a funny thing. Every true statement in math is essentially the same as "0=0".
They add no "information", counterintuitively.
For example, someone says "my hat is green". Then they say "my hat is not red". Then they say "if my hat were solely made of wool, it wouldn't be made of leather". The second statement adds no information, you could have already deduced it from the first. The third adds no information either. But all of mathematics is something you can deduce from previous things, or its own claims.

I'm an atheist, but even if I believed in God, I would think that God didn't create mathematics. Or at the very least didn't design mathematics.
As soon as He says "Let what is true be true" (for example), the rest of mathematics instantly bursts forth from it without His intervention.

I am not reading all that because you just keep going on with the same "its true here so its true everywhere" cognitive bias
Observations made in this universe are that and only that. Everything else is purely speculation.
Other worlds might not even work on a logic of identity and object permanence, whatever the case you literally couldn't even comprehend it.
If you want to believe mathematical principles are the fundamental truth of existence go ahead, its nothing more than an unsubstantiated belief though.

 

[okkokko]

I am not reading all that because you just keep going on with the same "its true here so its true everywhere" cognitive bias
Observations made in this universe are that and only that. Everything else is purely speculation.
Other worlds might not even work on a logic of identity and object permanence, whatever the case you literally couldn't even comprehend it.
If you want to believe mathematical principles are the fundamental truth of existence go ahead, its nothing more than an unsubstantiated belief though.

I'm taking you seriously. You do mention something interesting. I've tried to write a shorter comment so I hope you would at least skim the questions. Or not. There's no duty to respond.

Which parts were that cognitive bias?

"1+1" and "thing defined as 1+1" must necessarily be equal regardless of universe.

Is this?
(Just vaguely pointing in the direction of a comment and saying it has a specific cognitive bias somewhere in there is not very respectful.)

Other worlds might not even work on a logic of identity and object permanence, whatever the case you literally couldn't even comprehend it.

Is this the crux of your argument? That sounds reasonable. It would be hasty of me to outright reject that notion.
Would you say that IF we were to ignore such worlds then my claim would be correct? If so, I think I understand you.

Huh... A world where "A=A" doesn't hold... A world where statements that are by definition true can be false...
Incomprehensible indeed.

(Hmm... Actually, in such a world "A=B implies f(A) = f(B)" would still be vacuously true. Although so would "A=B implies f(A) = f(B)+1", so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.)

If I go to japan and say something in english, I would still be speaking valid sentences. Would this hold if I went in your worlds? (of course, it's possible that there is no analog that would let one communicate, but if it was possible to ignore that limitation without violating the essence of that world...)

Such worlds sound like a huge technicality, but actually it's in the scope of the discussion, so you are correct in pointing them out.

 

[flannan]

Imagine a new color, what you cant?
wow that must means the 7 color spectrum is a universal truth that can not change in other dimensions or universes 🤡
The very idea of math and logic is something born out of human cognition observing the laws of this reality
Making any judgment on how completely alien universes might function is pure speculation at best

7 colors are human convention. Humans actually perceive 2-4 colors, with 3 being most common. Light splits into spectrum for everybody capable of seeing it.
Math and logic are universal truths, superior to any gods and dimensions. Which is why protocols for first contact with aliens suggest we start with math.

This man thinks every universe across the whole of existence is just earth but women have different animal ears.

We totally have sci-fi where alien worlds have alien life. They don't get adapted to manga or other visual media, because nobody cares to do so.

Other worlds might not even work on a logic of identity and object permanence, whatever the case you literally couldn't even comprehend it.

Worlds without object permanence cannot host life.
Worlds without logic cannot exist, and are bullshit invented by Lovecraft fans.

 

[Kampfarsch]

7 colors are human convention. Humans actually perceive 2-4 colors, with 3 being most common. Light splits into spectrum for everybody capable of seeing it.
Math and logic are universal truths, superior to any gods and dimensions. Which is why protocols for first contact with aliens suggest we start with math.


We totally have sci-fi where alien worlds have alien life. They don't get adapted to manga or other visual media, because nobody cares to do so.

Worlds without object permanence cannot host life.
Worlds without logic cannot exist, and are bullshit invented by Lovecraft fans.

You missed every possible point, congratulations

 

[flannan]

You missed every possible point, congratulations

Yeah, I don't think we can communicate properly. That's why I hate religious people. They feel the need to glorify their god to unreasonable heights, but he never lives up to their praise.

In the end, claims about possibility of alternate maths and logic are just play with words.

 

[subliminal]

Isn't japan very fond of stories like anne of green gables?

 

[AnesthesiaCat]

this whole thing ended up being way more boring than I expected it to be