Onna dakara, to Party wo Tsuihou Sareta no de Densetsu no Majo to Saikyou Tag wo Kumimashita - Ch. 27.1

[pab101]

Kill the bastard!

 

[phil777]

Maxwell have you considered just becoming a Lich? you just prepare a potion of Lichdom, and a phylactery, you already have resurrection magic, entrap soul, preserve body, and enchant magic, so you have the countermeasure ready to deal with the gamble consequence of the potion failing and killing you, and all the other spells required to make the whole process easier

Granted you will end bald and undead, but that's just how it be, you either are born immortal, or gotta become a Lich, it is just how it is man, sometimes you just gotta be pragmatic instead of doing all this dumb ineffective over the top low level villain bull shit

Really 300 years just to be a body snatcher, do you even wizard bro? do you even wizard?

Totally the way I would chose to go if I wanted immortality. That or become an Internet AI with my personnality and memories up until now. The only problem with the latter is that you're trapped in a virtual world. But hey, if you manage to take control of a power plant and a factory, you can make yourself robotic bodies.

 

[silverpetricof]

Thank you for the translation.

 

[DigitDaemon]

oh this bastard needs to die

"You only got to hang mean bastards, but mean bastards, you got to hang." I get it now!

 

[AozoraBlueSky]

I do believe this is the first time I've ever read a manga and thought "this was obviously written by a huge feminist". It's not bad, but every single guy being a huge sexist pig is a tad grating. Also annoying that until last chapter the female characters have all been portrayed as completely invincible against males. At least even when females are in vulnerable positions there is never any allusions to SA which is something I haven't seen with strong female characters since, what, freaking Slayers maybe (edit: I remember. It was the Yoake Mae yori Ruriiro na animé from 2006 that I finally got around to watching this summer)? It really is sad that no one knows how to write a story with a strong female character anymore without resorting to SA. It could change, this is the first time a male character has actually managed to one up them, but if they didn't go there with the drugged girl then I'm comfortable assuming it's just not going to happen. Thank f.

Obvious TYPE-MOON inspiration in this series. The talk of magic circuits and transferring mana through bodily fluids is straight out of Tsukihime (and later reused more prominently in Fate/stay night). Tanya even does her incantations just like Shirou from Fate. Also, the idea of the big baddie using magic experiments so that he can become immortal is the same thing Roa was doing in Tsukihime. The reveal that d!ckface isn't actually immortal but transferring to new hosts made me facepalm pretty hard. Roa also failed (or so he thought) and also resorted to transferring his consciousness into new hosts, with reincarnation being the method used instead. Roa did manage to achieve immortality in one of his previous hosts (Ciel) whom he refers to as his daughter and the church put her through numerous immortality tests just like d!ckface here did to Laplace. It's all just too much to be a coincidence.

 

[YoraeRasante]

I do believe this is the first time I've ever read a manga and thought "this was obviously written by a huge feminist". It's not bad, but every single guy being a huge sexist pig is a tad grating. Also annoying that until last chapter the female characters have all been portrayed as completely invincible against males. At least even when females are in vulnerable positions there is never any allusions to SA which is something I haven't seen with strong female characters since, what, freaking Slayers maybe (edit: I remember. It was the Yoake Mae yori Ruriiro na animé from 2006 that I finally got around to watching this summer)? It really is sad that no one knows how to write a story with a strong female character anymore without resorting to SA. It could change, this is the first time a male character has actually managed to one up them, but if they didn't go there with the drugged girl then I'm comfortable assuming it's just not going to happen. Thank f.

Obvious TYPE-MOON inspiration in this series. The talk of magic circuits and transferring mana through bodily fluids is straight out of Tsukihime (and later reused more prominently in Fate/stay night). Tanya even does her incantations just like Shirou from Fate. Also, the idea of the big baddie using magic experiments so that he can become immortal is the same thing Roa was doing in Tsukihime. The reveal that d!ckface isn't actually immortal but transferring to new hosts made me facepalm pretty hard. Roa also failed (or so he thought) and also resorted to transferring his consciousness into new hosts, with reincarnation being the method used instead. Roa did manage to achieve immortality in one of his previous hosts (Ciel) whom he refers to as his daughter and the church put her through numerous immortality tests just like d!ckface here did to Laplace. It's all just too much to be a coincidence.

It may be a remake addition? From what I recall, in the original Ciel was not immortal while Roa was there, thus it would not count as him having achieved it.

As I understood it (been some time since I played it), she only became immortal because he fled her body before she was truly dead, meaning his vampiric soul became an anchor for her to the world of the living even though she is not one anymore.
As long as his soul still exists in a different still living body, her body would have any wounds reverted in time by his power. But if he ever came back to her body there would be no outside anchor, so she would be "mortal" again (as mortal as a dead apostle anyways).

 

[AozoraBlueSky]

It may be a remake addition? From what I recall, in the original Ciel was not immortal while Roa was there, thus it would not count as him having achieved it.

As I understood it (been some time since I played it), she only became immortal because he fled her body before she was truly dead, meaning his vampiric soul became an anchor for her to the world of the living even though she is not one anymore.
As long as his soul still exists in a different still living body, her body would have any wounds reverted in time by his power. But if he ever came back to her body there would be no outside anchor, so she would be "mortal" again (as mortal as a dead apostle anyways).

I played the original visual novel, replayed it a few years ago and will be replaying it again soon. I've also read the manga 3 times. But I may be misremembering things or confusing things with the manga. I'll pay closer attention when I replay her route.

Spoiler: Going to put all of this in a spoiler in case someone reads this and hasn't played the visual novel yet.

Ciel died but revived afterwards. Immortals can be killed (Arcueid was killed by Shiki) but they revive after a period of time. Roa fled the body assuming that she was dead dead because all of his previous attempts at immortality had failed so why wouldn't he assume that? Roa as an anchor was mentioned but it was brief and was all speculation on his part as he questioned whether he may have actually succeeded with his immortality experiments or if there were some other explanation. Those were the 2 possibilities that he reasoned for her still being alive. I don't think there is any mention of Ciel becoming mortal after Roa's death. Even in Kagetsu Touya. But I just don't remember. Roa could not return to Ciel's body because his method of transfer just didn't work that way, he transfers through reincarnation. THAT I am VERY certain of.

 

[YoraeRasante]

he transfers through reincarnation. THAT I am VERY certain of.

Nah, he transfers through body jumping. Automatically at death at that, which is why Shiki's eyes are needed to do it for good. He can't control where it goes unless he prepares the body beforehand though, which is why Ciel became him, then after her we go for the story where first it was SHIKI, and when he was defeated by someone else in Ciel's route he jumped to Shiki.
Unless you are using reincarnation in a different method than I know of, where the soul is transfered before birth.

I do recall Ciel herself saying that her time reversal is because her body is still linked to Roa's soul even though he is not in there anymore, and thus killing him would make her mortal again.

 

[AozoraBlueSky]

Nah, he transfers through body jumping. Automatically at death at that, which is why Shiki's eyes are needed to do it for good. He can't control where it goes unless he prepares the body beforehand though, which is why Ciel became him, then after her we go for the story where first it was SHIKI, and when he was defeated by someone else in Ciel's route he jumped to Shiki.
Unless you are using reincarnation in a different method than I know of, where the soul is transfered before birth.

I do recall Ciel herself saying that her time reversal is because her body is still linked to Roa's soul even though he is not in there anymore, and thus killing him would make her mortal again.

The last thing I read was the manga and the manga explicitly says reincarnation multiple times. Even Ciel says it. I thought the visual novel was the same, but, again, I need to replay it. This could all easily be manga only as the Ciel scene I'm thinking of is not in the visual novel. There is also a scene where Ciel recounts her slow takeover by Roa but again this is manga only. I don't remember the visual novel going into any detail about how Ciel became Roa just that she did and it wasn't intentional. Nasu intentionally left a lot of stuff about the past vague and unanswered in Tsukihime. You're seeing everything through Shiki's eyes and he never gets all of the answers so neither do we.

The whole idea of "preparing a body" could just as easily refer to an unborn body as someone already born and can't be used as proof that reincarnation is not involved. My assumption was that "preparing a body" is just transferring his DNA to a new host and nothing more. This could be done with sex, blood sucking or even a simple kiss, or, in Shiki's case impaling him through the chest among many other things. Hisui's and Kohaku's abilities work in a similar way with this exact method of transferal.

My understanding was that "preparing a body" was searching for an ideal family for which to be reborn into and transferring his DNA. In Ciel's case he didn't get to choose so he ended up being reborn into Ciel. I assumed that the host prior to SHIKI identified the Tohno clan as a prime candidate for reincarnation and began "preparing a body" which turned out to be the Tohno first born, SHIKI. Reincarnation would be incredibly beneficial for Roa. Living X number of years with his host would help him to avoid detection as he would already have X number of years experience living as the host before he slowly started to take over. It would also be easier than trying to takeover the mind of an adult magus, and he was intentionally seeking out bloodlines with strong abilities so that would make a takeover even harder. However, due to the Tohno clan's demon blood, he awakened suddenly, and early, in SHIKI and in a family already looking for signs of their demon blood awakening he was caught and imprisoned immediately. Leaving him with no "prepared body" other than Shiki. On top of that SHIKI was already envious of the life that Shiki had stolen from him and, after impaling him, Roa grew envious of his ability, even attempting to copy it. This led to him to try a forceful takeover of Shiki, before he was killed, which failed. This has been my understanding. Again, I'll be replaying it soon and paying closer attention.

I don't recall that scene with Ciel or whether or not she was speculating about it or stating it as fact. Considering Ciel is a unique case with no precedent to go off of I'd lean towards speculation but, again, I need to replay it. I also don't remember if anything is clarified in Kagetsu Touya. Or Melty Blood for that matter.

 

[YoraeRasante]

I would need to replay the games to go into a more in-depth discussion about this, and so would you. Since our arguments all boil down to "this was explained like this here... if I'm remembering right"

But there are two issues:
1- they are not short reads, as far as I remember.
2- ...I think we are kinda taking over this discussion from its original point, and I kinda feel bad about it.

 

[AozoraBlueSky]

I would need to replay the games to go into a more in-depth discussion about this, and so would you. Since our arguments all boil down to "this was explained like this here... if I'm remembering right"

But there are two issues:
1- they are not short reads, as far as I remember.
2- ...I think we are kinda taking over this discussion from its original point, and I kinda feel bad about it.

I also felt bad about hijacking the thread, even if the thread does look dead. We can probably end the discussion anyway. I just picked up where I left off in my replay of Arcueid's route and during their "date" she says this

. This is describing a potential jump, but it raises all kinds of questions. How did he make a jump over such an insane distance? If the body was prepared, how? And under the noses of a family actively looking for signs of inversion no less. Impressive. Arcueid does say clearly that she sleeps when Roa is inactive and that she was sleeping the entire 8 years between then and now. If Roa jumped immediately then why did Arcueid sleep? He was still active. It makes no sense for her to do that. They do say reincarnation in the manga so it must be a manga only thing (like a bunch of other things).

Edit: I'm further in now and this is contradictory. . .

When I saw this I thought that he made the jump using reincarnation as the method to prepare the body, essentially making us both right. He transfers the data at birth and then when the time is right makes the jump to the prepared body. But everything after this screenshot is 100% reincarnation. Nothing is said or even hinted at about a potential body jump.

Straight from Ciel's mouth; ". . . the instant his body is destroyed, he reincarnates into the body he chose as his next body."

". . . he is properly born as a human baby and has parents. He transforms into a vampire only when he reaches the age where he can do everything at a satisfactory level. Until then, that human shows no hint of being a vampire. But once he awakens, he uses the relationships he gained until that time to blend perfectly into socitey."

This fits exactly with what I said I remembered.

Something I forgot to add to my last post also confirmed here by Ciel; "The family he is born into must meet two conditions . . . A family with wealth and influence, and inhuman power."

Method of transferral described as the soul propagating through the air similar to an electromagnetic wave from one mind to another, so not DNA like I thought.

If what Ciel says here is true then Roa couldn't jump to SHIKI 8 years ago like Arcueid appeared to allude to. Either the Dead Apostle from 8 years ago that very much sounds like Ciel conveniently wasn't and was a different Dead Apostle altogether (which I have to admit seems unlikely because Arcueid has been obsessed with hunting Roa and only Roa for 800 years) or 1 of them is wrong/lying or it was a writing mistake not picked up during editing that both accounts conflict, or. . . Ciel could be withholding information and SHIKI might be an exception to the entire monologue. She did specifically say that she chose Tohno SHIKI but cut herself off before giving any more information. But at the same time she was also confused about the 2 Shiki's and about who lived and died and had she, somehow, chosen the host at the moment of the accident she should know. She's talking like someone who chose the fetus and only knows the official account about what happened that was released by the Tohno family. I don't think it's this, but figured I'd mention it in case somehow it is because that would make you 100% right and I only remembered the monologue. I think I figured out why Arcueid didn't come to Japan 8 years ago, though. SHIKI was imprisoned my Makihisa and not active until now and she only wakes up when he becomes active, not simply awake. However, Ciel knew where Roa was before hand so why did it take the Church 8 years?

On a side note, starting to think you were on to something with the whole anchor thing. This whole scene makes it look like Roa was researching reincarnation, not an undying host. Ciel was an unintended accident which is why he left as soon as she died. If anchoring is true it doesn't necessarily mean that she becomes mortal when he dies, but I'd be inclined to believe that she does. This is something that won't be explored in Arcueid's route, so it will be a while.

Anyway, sleep. We can continue this in PM if you want to keep discussing it and you don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[YoraeRasante]

We can continue this in PM if you want to keep discussing it and you don't want to hijack the thread.

For some reason when I tried a PM it said I can't start a conversation with you.
Guess you'll have to be the one to do it?

Spoiler: Last one I guess?

I did not remember Ciel mentioning that part about the baby. That does point to your idea being valid...
Save that, as you pointed out too, Roa's latest defeat by Arcueid was 8 years before then. Right on time to take over Shiki.
Ciel's explanation at least seems to imply that when he does it that way he transfers himself completely, else there is a chance there would be two Roas around at some points?

I am guessing that we are seeing three similar cases here. When Arcueid last defeated him, he was forced to jump ship and ended up on SHIKI, and later (in some routes) in Shiki. Just like he did to Ciel, and if I got it right also on the way to the next. There may have been successfully prepared Roas between Ciel and Shiki though, or maybe she kept some knowledge?

I remember that it was also said at some point that he also lost a bit of himself as he reincarnated, having even forgotten why he even started. Don't remember if it was in Ciel's ending or in the dream of Shiki and him in his past with Arcueid in Kagetsu Tohya.

 

[Coldlight]

I assumed before that Maxwell had already achieved (non-aging) immortality, but the previous chapters stated he hasn't and is still working on it. So the way he works around his mortality is by stealing the bodies of other people whenever he needed to. The list of this sick bastard's crimes just continue to grow.

As for why he hasn't simply switched to an Arienora/Laplace clone body, IMO it's because doing so would have him surrender the abnormally enhanced male privilege that he himself twisted their society into having. Transferring into a woman's body in that kingdom is basically shooting himself in the foot by turning himself into a second-class citizen just to avoid death.

Before Laplace was imprisoned for centuries, their country had a normal society where men were not all sexist pigs and women were not second class citizens. Maxwell somehow distorted that for his own ends.