Ookami wa Tsuki ni Koi wo Suru - Ch. 31 - My True, Unfalsified Self

[misopogon]

So I interpret one's "heart being male" to mean being trans masc, but she says that's not how she feels, but then seems to describe what being trans feels like. Is it the author being too scared to include an explicitly trans character, or is the character written to be somewhat in denial, or am I reading this wrong entirely?

They have a different perception of gender and sexuality in Japan than they do in the West; the author not defining the character as trans is not indicative of being "too scared to include an explicitly trans character".

 

[ENCORAAAAAAAAA]

Maybe it's because of my friend groups or abundance of media intake, but I don't really see the problem. But then again I enjoy JoCat's content, and he's a cishet male who happens to like dresses and feminine clothes.

So to me it reads as a girl who feels stifled by and resentful of gender norms, hence why she detests being seen or treated "as a girl". She likes wearing cool, "boyish" clothes and has "boyish" hobbies, and just wants to be able to be who she is without other peoples' pressure or expectations of conformity.

Sounds (like it should be) pretty simple to me.

Yeah honestly cross dressing is not an issue for most people especially tomboy specific cross dressing as most mes clothing is just unisex

 

[Bonzalez]

They have a different perception of gender and sexuality in Japan than they do in the West; the author not defining the character as trans is not indicative of being "too scared to include an explicitly trans character".

Sex and gender:
Sex and gender, Japan:

Say something substantial next time maybe instead of wasting others' time

 

[misopogon]

Sex and gender:
Sex and gender, Japan:

Say something substantial next time maybe instead of wasting others' time

Setting aside the abrasive attitude and what appears to be an unhealthy level of investment, god forbid anyone waste anyone else's time on the forum discussion for a shounen romcom manga lmao

 

[Bonzalez]

Setting aside the abrasive attitude and what appears to be an unhealthy level of investment, god forbid anyone waste anyone else's time on the forum discussion for a shounen romcom manga lmao

🦨

 

[ENCORAAAAAAAAA]

Sex and gender:
Sex and gender, Japan:

Say something substantial next time maybe instead of wasting others' time

Dude what is this aggressive attitudes towards this guy for?

He didn’t attack you in anyway or anything.

He just stated culturally Japan and the US are different and that gender identity isn’t much of a thing in Japan which it isn’t.

If you’re wrong then you’re wrong.

Simple as that.

 

[Toofoof]

Gender representation questioning in my misunderstanding and lies romcom manga???

Wasn't expecting that but it's welcomed

 

[Bonzalez]

Dude what is this aggressive attitudes towards this guy for?

He didn’t attack you in anyway or anything.

He just stated culturally Japan and the US are different and that gender identity isn’t much of a thing in Japan which it isn’t.

If you’re wrong then you’re wrong.

Simple as that.

He didn't say much of anything, and I found that annoying. Also "gender identity isn’t much of a thing in Japan" is a silly, easily refuted statement

 

[ENCORAAAAAAAAA]

He didn't say much of anything, and I found that annoying. Also "gender identity isn’t much of a thing in Japan" is a silly, easily refuted statement

If thats true whats gender identity culturally based on?

Cause Japanese people carry very cultural values. Its why you see yaoi but a prohibition of gay marriage because Japanese culture has had gay relationships before but as a “phase” that the male is supposed to move past and get married after a while.

And no offense but your idea of NB is based on there being a term about it in Japan rather than how popularly it is portrayed in media or how big an issue it is which leads to me doubting you without some hard evidence.

 

[Bonzalez]

If thats true whats gender identity culturally based on?

Cause Japanese people carry very cultural values. Its why you see yaoi but a prohibition of gay marriage because Japanese culture has had gay relationships before but as a “phase” that the male is supposed to move past and get married after a while.

And no offense but your idea of NB is based on there being a term about it in Japan rather than how popularly it is portrayed in media or how big an issue it is which leads to me doubting you without some hard evidence.

Gender is a culturally defined concept already, and throughout every society on earth there are people for whom the gender they identify with is not the one they were born with.

Every culture "carries cultural values." It comes with the territory of having a culture. The idea of homosexual attraction being a phase is not Japan exclusive. It's something lots of of gay kids in the West have been accused of because heterosexuality is seen as compulsory.

I have no clue what you're talking about. I can point to multiple high profile Japanese people who openly and explicitly identify as non-binary and/or transgender

 

[Friendly-Sentence710]

"I know you like me for looking girly, but I honestly don't like it and would rather wear more boyish clothes and look more like one, and I'm not going to change my mind on this design choice anytime soon."

You could literally shorten that whole 'revelation' to ^that^, and I think a lot of guys would be fine with that if they were in front of her. Most men's clothes these days might as well be viewed as unisex at this point. As long as you know you're a woman and have the genetics for it, you're good and mentally healthy.

Now, if you're a man who wants to wear a dress and look more like a girl ... I'm stepping faaaaaar away from that topic.

To make this as short as possible:
That is because you aren't in Japan. As she enters her 20s there would be increasing pressure for her to conform to societal norms when outside of the home.
This is her declaring "I intend to keep eating beans and farting in the elevator".

You can see the flip side of this where you have manly characters who are concerned about "liking cute(feminine) things". They aren't gay, they aren't wanting to be women, they often don't even want to wear women's clothing, they just like cute characters/designs/patterns, but openly acting on that is a huge deviation from social norms.

 

[misopogon]

He didn't say much of anything, and I found that annoying. Also "gender identity isn’t much of a thing in Japan" is a silly, easily refuted statement

Speaking of things we found annoying - where did I say "gender identity isn't much of a thing in Japan", o wise one?

 

[ENCORAAAAAAAAA]

Gender is a culturally defined concept already, and throughout every society on earth there are people for whom the gender they identify with is not the one they were born with.

Every culture "carries cultural values." It comes with the territory of having a culture. The idea of homosexual attraction being a phase is not Japan exclusive. It's something lots of of gay kids in the West have been accused of because heterosexuality is seen as compulsory.

I have no clue what you're talking about. I can point to multiple high profile Japanese people who openly and explicitly identify as non-binary and/or transgender

Sigh…You say gender is a culturally defined concept, yet when I ask what culturally leads to Japanese support of NB you deflect it as just another culture thats against homosexuality and just like the rest of ‘them’

The Yaoi example isn’t the same as every culture. Most places gay sex would get you stoned to death in the past, yet Japan had open gay relationships but never to the point of marriage rights.

Its why YAOI managed to go mainstream in Japan despite how taboo gay marriage in and of itself is.

Really there is no cultural basis for NB in Japanese culture and as far as I’m aware there is no mainstream coverage of NB in Japanese media.

I’m glad if nonbinaries exist in Japan but that doesn’t point to it being a mainstream topic.

So I ask once again, Bonzalez, “What actual evidence do you have that Japanese people find NB to be a mainstream topic or culturally important?”

 

[Bonzalez]

Speaking of things we found annoying - where did I say "gender identity isn't much of a thing in Japan", o wise one?

You didn't. The guy who made the comment I was replying to did

 

[Bonzalez]

Sigh…You say gender is a culturally defined concept, yet when I ask what culturally leads to Japanese support of NB you deflect it as just another culture thats against homosexuality and just like the rest of ‘them’

The Yaoi example isn’t the same as every culture. Most places gay sex would get you stoned to death in the past, yet Japan had open gay relationships but never to the point of marriage rights.

Its why YAOI managed to go mainstream in Japan despite how taboo gay marriage in and of itself is.

Really there is no cultural basis for NB in Japanese culture and as far as I’m aware there is no mainstream coverage of NB in Japanese media.

I’m glad if nonbinaries exist in Japan but that doesn’t point to it being a mainstream topic.

So I ask once again, Bonzalez, “What actual evidence do you have that Japanese people find NB to be a mainstream topic or culturally important?”

You didn't ask any of that though? You asked what gender identity is culturally based on. I'm sorry if the answer wasn't to your satisfaction but frankly your question didn't make sense in the first place. What's the cultural basis for NB in the West? What does that have to do with anything in this discussion in the first place? My original question was why did the author write the character as seemingly denying being trans while also seeming to describe experiencing gender dysphoria. Whether or not it's mainstream in Japanese media is irrelevant here because the author of this story is clearly aware of the topic and seemed to want to sidestep it

 

[ENCORAAAAAAAAA]

the author of this story is clearly aware of the topic and seemed to want to sidestep it

Thats my point though. The author doesn’t intend to represent her as NB from this as she exclusively says that she isn’t gay in any way.

 

[ENCORAAAAAAAAA]

You didn't ask any of that though? You asked what gender identity is culturally based on.

For this my point is that the author likely isn’t making this a NB issue because culturally Japanese do not care about NB and that Japanese and Western views differ greatly in how they view gender identity.

You were originally getting upset at a comment talking about Japanese and the West having different cultural values. I was asking why you were upset about them pointing out different cultural values and how differently NB is viewed and that your assertions were wrong.

I included that question of yours in my criticism of you because you were putting down the other person for being “factually incorrect” yet basing the fact that the character is NB off the Japanese having a term for NB

What's the cultural basis for NB in the West?

As for this? The cultural basis for the West is the enlightenment and the Christian idea of reforming the bad in society. Its why you see several sects of Christianity; each derived from trying to reform a former sect.

Japanese on the other hand don’t have this culturally present in comparison as far as I am aware of and nonbinary isn’t a mainstream thing there.

 

[Bonzalez]

Thats my point though. The author doesn’t intend to represent her as NB from this as she exclusively says that she isn’t gay in any way.

The character said nothing about being gay or otherwise. She denied being a trans man. Also I'd say you have no idea what the author's intent is with this character yet because they just introduced this topic, so we don't know where they're going with this yet, but even if the author doesn't intend for them to be NB, they've still written the character in a way that makes it seem they might be NB

 

[ENCORAAAAAAAAA]

The character said nothing about being gay or otherwise.

Being trans is gay. Also she says I don’t like girls either, so not a lesb.

And its fine if you think this was written in a NB way but context clues-wise I simply remarked that to be unlikely just due to how most Japanese media goes and the author clearly trying to avoid her being considered trans or gay

Plus she uses “she/her” pronouns.

 

[Bonzalez]

For this my point is that the author likely isn’t making this a NB issue because culturally Japanese do not care about NB and that Japanese and Western views differ greatly in how they view gender identity.

You were originally getting upset at a comment talking about Japanese and the West having different cultural values. I was asking why you were upset about them pointing out different cultural values and how differently NB is viewed and that your assertions were wrong.

I included that question of yours in my criticism of you because you were putting down the other person for being “factually incorrect” yet basing the fact that the character is NB off the Japanese having a term for NB

I was annoyed with the other commenter for saying nothing, and I never said they were factually incorrect about anything so don't put quotes around that like I did.

Anime and manga has a long history of including gender non-conforming characters and besides I highly doubt you have a comprehensive understanding of Japanese gender politics to say that "culturally Japanese do not care about NB." How would even you begin to prove that?