Ore Igai Dare mo Saishu Dekinai Sozai na no ni "Sozai Saishuritsu ga Hikui" to Pawahara suru Osananajimi Renkinjutsushi to Zetsuen shita Senzoku Mado…
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Page 10, first panel, the building behind this one. Clearly the density of the lines alters not all of that is shading. Page 10 second to last panel, building on the right. The bottom section that is just under a person tall, literally has cracks and there is no way you can say that isn't cracks.
Also you say "cracks are common" but teh artist does not draw cracks in buildings normally. You can go back to other chapters and look. You can say it happens in real life all you want, but it doesn't happen in this artist's drawing style. That's why I pointed out page 6.
For verbal abuse you literally broke your own case. You compared it to how she was treating him in chapter 1. With teh exception of the second half of page 16 to the end of page 18, there are no flashbacks in chapter 1. Everything else is AFTER he she started abusing him. So if she's acting the same, she is abusing him. You clearly do not remember how this story went. She was abusing him literally on the first page of the first chapter.
The bread is a reference to BOTH scenes because they are the same scene. We now have more context.
Lloyd is being pretty much entirely honest. Nothing he has said is wrong. And Ruby "being emotional" isn't an excuse because literally she is acting EXACTLY like how she's been acting. The only thing that has changed is she's strong now. She has been blaming Llyod literally every time we've seen her.
I'm not talking about Lloyd's awareness to danger, I'm talking his general awareness. Go reread teh manga. Chapter 2, realizing that if he goes to get supplies from teh shop he might encounter Ruby. Instantly realizing that if the Saintes casts her ice spell again it'll damage the town, so to stop her, instead of doing the usual "dumb protag" thing of grabbing her or something. He instantly knocks the two men out. Telling her he's an adventurer instead of a magic assistant to avoid complicated questions and possibly getting in trouble. Chapter 3, being aware that the Saintes is a little sheltered and protected because there is only one per country. The scene where he takes her to the roof to thank her. The fact that he noticed the time and that the sun was gonna rise soon and that he remembered this scenery happens. All of those are signs that he has practical intelligence and a decently high amount of awareness and I didn't even finish chapter 3.
Yelling at the shopkeeper would be cool, if RUBY yelled at him. But Ruby of all people, if she isn't doing anything you think she's gonna feel better if "weak Lloyd" stands up for her? No. Also if they DO go back to him it would be a problem. And guess what, Ruby makes the potions so she's choosing the selling point. If Ruby is staying quite to not burn teh bridge and then Lloyd burns it by getting upset, then he's HURT things not helped. The best choice is to follow Ruby's lead here, and she stayed quiet, so you do too. Also "it left a mark" is meaningless in manga, slaps leave the same kind of mark (even in this manga) so that's no guage at all for how strong it is.
Both chapter 6 and chapter 1 happened AFTER this incident, he could have changed his opinion of her in that time. Doesn't mean he thought of her as a close friend at the time of this incident. Again, get your timeline in order.
I like how you thought you had something with this world view thing. Because like I said when I addressed her world view. Her world view is straight up wrong. It doesn't matter if it plays into her views when her views are wrong.
And her world view has NEVER included helping Lloyd, this chapter actually proves that. She considered what Lloyd was doing practicing magic dumb. Even though at that point it was already known that Lloyd CAN use magic. If she wanted to help him she'd have encouraged him to get better at it because even if he's not 'great' it gives him something he can do in life. Then Lloyd succeeds and they tell him he could join teh ACADEMY. But Ruby sees him getting praised and says if SHE had power HER status wouldn't matter. Then she goes to learn Alchemy and tells him that he should be HER assistant. He literally had a plethora of life choices ahead of him, and then she decided for him and pushed him into the life choice that helped her. She didn't even say "And you'll become the BEST assistant" she said "MY assistant". No where in any of that did she look out for Lloyd's future. Lloyd is just the most talented person around her.
The potion. You realize you literally just dug your own grave on that. Yeah I made up the scenario I said, but if it's the quest, Ruby straight up says "I picked it out myself right after I finished my exam". That means that if teh merchant is bad, Ruby picked a quest with a bad merchant. (That was probably still there because people knew it was bad) So in both your scenario and mine, they are still there because Ruby's impulsive decision, and probably could've done better taking things slow and smart.
The 'WE" is everyone at the orphanage, but he doesn't denote that Ruby didn't eat it.
The italics were not my addition go reread the chapter. I said that was what she said at the START of the chapter. Which is what she said in her mind. This indicates that it's that Pot-au-feu specifically. Maybe before if they had it she ate it. Was the point that was being implied. But the point still stands, there are more indicators that she at least still ate it than anything.
And yes she 'says' she hates it. But that doesn't mean she SHOWED she hated it before than. And it doesn't matter if she likes it or not. What matters is if there was any way for Lloyd to actually KNOW that she hated it. And you still haven't actually given anything that even suggest evidence that she made it apparent other than the fact that she walked out ONCE.
As for the chapter 6 stuff. Your own words just strengthen my point. It literally doesn't matter why she was taking the sausage. If she ate it, that would make it harder for Lloyd to know she hates it, and actually make it look like she's likes it.
And just no, she and Lloyd are not alike. There is no 'masking' here she just didn't reveal stuff. And yes Lloyd went along with her. But guess what, look at teh flashbacks again. Never once did she vocalize her agenda about nobles and stuff to Lloyd. Infact, she actually told him other stuff. Even with teh Pot-au-feu she doesn't tell him why she hates it, she just makes it about her feelings. Lloyd isn't "Misunderstanding" or "missing" anything. There is literally nothing there for him. She can feel betrayed all she wants, but that's her own fault for not telling people what the mission was.
If you bring a bunch of people together to plan an event, but you never tell them it's a surprise, and they tell someone, did they betray you, or did you fail yourself by not making sure they knew the game plan?
Firstly Ruby didn't learn magic. She learned ALCHEMY from BOOKS. Even if not this guy, that is almost certainly a noble or someone with money's doing. But likely him because he's an alchemist. Secondly, while less likely, still very likely that the reason teh GUILD MASTER would personally visit an orphanage is likely the influence of someone with money.
And you don't know what gloating is.
"dwelling on one's own success or another's misfortune with smugness or malignant pleasure."
That is the definition of glaoting. Notice the OR in both cases. So glaoting can be "dwelling on one's own success with smugness" which is exactly what they did. Gloating does not have to be ill intended.
The only offical place that uses the definition you are using is vocabulary.com. Even Merrian Webster says "usually" (but distinctly does not say always.)
You also do not know the definition of 'mercy'
"compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm."
compassion OR forgiveness, not exclusively forgiveness. And not "from a punishment" but rather by someone with the power to punish or harm".
It is mercy because instead of exploiting the orphanage for his gain he decided to help. In this case the difference between mercy and charity is that he is in a position to negativly impact the children if he wants to. Meaning maybe he actually runts the orphanage or has a government position where he could effect it.
Also 'charity' is less broad than 'mercy'. Charity is to "those who need it" mercy can be to those who don't 'need' it but would benefit from it. Mercy also means CHOOSING not to exploit or harm. Charity just means choosing to help. Charity is easy when you stand nothing to gain from doing the opposite.
You are now grabbing at straws. Because it doesn't matter what other nobles think. We don't even know if Ruby and Lloyd interacted with other nobles before they left. What matters is what we SEE. And again, if the author wanted to show nobles being unjust to Ruby why didn't they? Why is the only instance a BUSINESSMAN, which are almost always trying to get teh best deal they can, and exploit everyone equally.
Yes we DO need to pull exclusively from teh confines of this story for how nobles treat people. Because Ruby isn't interacting with people from other stories. If the nobility in her kingdom is portrayed as nice to her, it doesn't matter that real life nobility is terrible. What kind of dumb logic is that on your part? It'd be one thing if there wasn't an opportunity to show it then we could assume they are like normal nobles. But there HAS been opportunity, and we haven't seen it.
Along with that she is in a kingdom that allows people to earn last names through merit. Historically speaking such kingdoms were much better towards their commoners. There will always be outliers but society as a whole was much better with it because they valued ability.
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After going back through the manga (but mostly this chapter) I think you're right about the artist trying to portray the street as "dirty" but not for any of the reasons you gave. The stone tower you pointed out in the background is just how they do shading on stone buildings. Small cracks are scene on pretty much every structure from small cracks in the lime plaster in chapter 2 to cracks in the stone stairs and walls of the throne room of the Royal Kingdom of Roland.
What changed my mind about the street was the patches of "scratchiness" you see the artist put on beat up and dirty things. You see it on beat up Lloyd, you see it on the orphanage interior, and you see it on the run down atelier interior. Both of us missing the forest for the trees on that one.
I don't think it changes anything, though? This shopkeep (all the legitimate stores we've seen have exterior signs) still treated her poorly for no reason other than he saw her as lesser than himself.
Huh? No I'm saying she's treating him differently on ch. 20 page 9 and page 22 to every other grown up instance. Prior to the pot-au-feu incident on page 15 she wasn't abusing him. Page 9 and 22 happen before page 15. Page 15 is probably the beginning of the abusive relationship.
Obviously. But that doesn't change any of what I said. Lloyd's interpretation of that incident is biased by his later treatment from Ruby. She wasn't baiting him with bread. She gave it to him because he was crying and hungry with the rationale that she'd have all the bread she wanted later in life after becoming an alchemist.
Please understand that explanations are not excuses. It is painfully obvious they aren't being honest with themselves and each other (Ruby most of all). Yes, they're mad at each other, but they don't want to be. That's why they both thought of the Hecate Lights plan.
Again, nothing in that paragraph is relevant or will help him pick up on the emotions and feelings of others. Emotional intelligence has nothing to do with practical intelligence or general awareness. Iris or Isolde are people with a lot of emotional intelligence. Compare how they lift Lloyd up and encourage those around them without anyone saying "I'm sad."
She was already yelling. How much more does she need to do for Lloyd to back her up?
Nothing indicates she thinks he's weak at this point. On the contrary, she recognizes at the orphanage that he's gained power. She even gets her own shocked face panel when he breaks the rock with the water magic.
I'd say the bridge was already burned when Ruby yelled at the shopkeep that he was talking out his ass. So no reason Lloyd couldn't have piped up, as well.
Any adult that hits a child in anger (or for any reason in my book) is wrong even if it's in a story. It is wild to me you're trying to defend a grown man hitting a teenage girl in the face by saying "it's no big deal."
Lloyd thinks of her as a childhood friend in the current time. He tells Iris Ruby is his childhood friend in Ch. 6. He also notes she's a mage and an alchemist. There's nothing wrong with my timeline.
Depends what you think her worldview was. I think this chapter as a whole summarizes it was "Nobles looked down on us for being poor and they are wrong for it." I think that's right.
At some point in her life it changes to "Anyone who disrespects me (even perceived disrespect) is wrong." I think that's wrong.
I think that change in her world view makes her much more interesting than just someone who is only bad.
Lots of reasons she didn't. She didn't consider what the adults said truthful about him joining the mages guild (called it random ramblings). She's a child and children are selfish. A child would rather play with their friend than watch him do pushups every day for years.
She only changes her mind when the guildmaster himself confirms it to Lloyd. That Lloyd's effort will help him rise above his current station. So she decides to put in the effort herself and raise her station as well.
How I see it is that she decides to become the greatest alchemist and then tells him he should be her assistant. She had resolved to be the greatest alchemist with or without him. But she offers her friend the opportunity to join her because she cares about him.
We know she cares about him because we've seen her just watched her give him bread because he's hungry, but more importantly, we've seen her cry along with him while he cries for his mom and dad in his sleep.
I read it as she wants to bring him along whether he was talented or not.
I do think the shopkeep was related to the quest since they're also wearing their adventurer backpacks still. But your scenario that the quest giver was bad and the quest had been there a long time is just as likely as Ruby waiting 3 days and coincidentally grabbing that quest 30 minutes after it was posted.
In short, it's total nonsense. Ruby is not responsible and did not deserve the actions of that alchemist in any way. To argue otherwise is insanity.
For argument's sake lets say it's not related to the quest and it's just a shady shop (that is advertised for some reason). She's a young teen from an orphanage on her first day in the capital. How is she supposed to know what is and isn't a bad shop? She has no experience or guardian to teach her.
Here's a better explanation of what I mean. Maybe this is just regional and my interpretation is off, but if, for instance, I'm talking about a previous thanksgiving meal to a friend and I say "we ate turkey, dressing, rolls, mashed potatoes, and gravy." My vegan family members did not eat any of that and brought their own food. But I still include them in the "we" because it is a group meal/activity.
Maybe I misunderstood your intent and you were just pointing out the presence of the word "this." To me, italics indicate emphasis, and the original word bubble lacks any emphasis. The emphasis could be on pot-au-feu to indicate she dislikes even saying the name. Could be on hate to emphasize how much she hates the dish.
What we do know, again, is that the rest of the manga so far has reinforced that she hates all pot-au-feu. Through both herself and Lloyd.
The only thing it indicates is that she likes sausage. If she only ate the vegetable scraps then she likes boiled vegetables. Eating the dish as a whole is (sausage, vegetables, "broth") means she likes pot-au-feu.
More simply, if I were back in elementary and my friend picks the pepperonis off a pizza and eats them while leaving the rest of the slices on his plate or dissassembles a burger just to eat the patty, I don't think they like Pizza and Burgers. I think they like pepperonis and beef patties.
That's actually all the evidence I have to give, because the alternative theory you're suggesting isn't shown in the manga at all. The manga is telling us that she hates pot-au-feu (many times) and because she hates it she doesn't eat the dish (revealed for the first time in this chapter). There is no evidence otherwise. And no, eating a sausage from a dish does not mean she likes the dish.
Which leads me back to my original point. The manga shows us that Lloyd isn't as attentive to the feelings and emotions of others as he should be. chapter 8 p.14 where misses that the chef is being serious and ch.11 p6 where he asks Iris about the prince that banished her and put a bounty on her head while they're trying to relax. Is his inability to pick up on Ruby's misgivings entirely his fault? No, of course not. I said as much originally that he only shared the blame.
Ch. 20 Page 21 "We've always had a terrible life, right? We had neither parents nor money. And nobles looked down on us just for being poor. We truly had nothing in every meaning of the word."
That seems pretty vocal to me. Our life was terrible because we had no parents, no money, and nobles looked down on us or it. We had nothing.
The end of that quote "However, if we light up the whole town, then this whole sight will belong to us!" shows that the things they achieve with their own effort are what hold value to her.
She's all but telling Lloyd that the orphanage life was terrible. I don't see why Lloyd would then think pot-au-feu, a food he associates with the orphanage she thinks is terrible would be a comfort food for her. The most generous explanation is that he simply lacked the emotional intelligence to pick up on that.
Agree to disagree. The manga is setting up parallels for a reason. Two exceptionally talented orphans separate from each other. One finds excellent companions and the other struggles while trying to prove to the other they don't need each other.
Ignoring the fact Lloyd calls her a mage, there's no reason a guild master wouldn't have books on alchemy when mages and alchemists work so closely together. The noble only donated money. Not food, not books, just money so it's unrelated to him.
The magic lessons are more likely to be aptitude testing they do at certain ages. Orphans are not kept forever at the orphanage and finding out if some of them are capable of being mages or alchemists is beneficial to the community. They will all leave the orphanage at some point and enter the work force.
The great thing about words is that definitions are flexible. For example: to observe or think about something with triumphant and often malicious satisfaction, gratification, or delight
You have to be naive to ignore that gloating has a negative connotation.
But lets take the first definition for example: dwelling on success with smugness.
First off, being smug isn't a good thing.
What is it that they're being smug about? Donating money? Why would they be prideful about donating? It's something they should be doing as part of nobless oblige anyway (which apparently the father was ignoring). No, they're being smug that they're so much wealthier than all these orphaned children.
So either way they're being scumbag nobles about their donation because they're either gloating that they're wealthier than orphans or there to remind these kids of the class disparity between them.
None of your arguments make this seem any better. You're basically saying "Yes they're showing the value of mercy by not exploiting the orphanage (somehow???) and instead giving it money." How does that not exactly demonstrate that the nobles are there solely to demonstrate class disparity?
They donate money, show up for dinner, and remind them of the value of mercy. That mercy being "hey we didn't exploit the home for penniless children with dead parents." So the lesson the kids are supposed to take away is "Don't forget that those above you can always punish you for something out of your control like the death of your parents."
Thank you for making my point for me.
Also, the connotations attached to mercy aren't great either. "Beg for mercy" from an enemy ring a bell?
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Had to split in two.
Petition for Mangadex to let us write novels in chapter comments
My point here wasn't about Lloyd and Ruby's interaction with other nobles.
Maybe the author expected you to read this chapter, analyze the unjust treatment of Ruby and begin to wonder how she ended up doing that same thing to Lloyd?
My point being, it's good to look at this story's nobles and think "are they bad like they are in my world." Because some part of them is a reflection of our world. For me the answer is always yes when it comes to class based societies. I think it's an inherently oppressive system.
But hey, I don't think I'm going to convince you that Ruby started off good and went mad or that Lloyd should be more mindful of his friends' emotions and that's okay. But I hope I've at least given you some good food for thought. It's possible I've forgotten to include things as I wrote this over a period of 10 hours (not all at once thank god).
Looking forward to where the manga goes next cuz I genuinely have no idea.
"...a story has as many versions as it has readers. Everyone takes what he wants or can from it and thus changes it to his measure. Some pick out parts and reject the rest, some strain the story through their mesh of prejudice, some paint it with their own delight."
-John Steinbeck
Petition for Mangadex to let us write novels in chapter comments
It does though, because what other nobles think and how they act informs us of how these nobles act and think. This alchemist noble doesn't live in a vacuum in this world. He interacts with other people in his social circle as evidenced by the fact he's fathered a legitimate child.
My point here wasn't about Lloyd and Ruby's interaction with other nobles.
Because we're 20 chapters into a 90+ chapter WN and it's skipped most of the WN and caught up already? Because Ruby is, so far, a minor character in contrast to Lloyd and Iris and showing a bunch of examples of Ruby being treated unjustly isn't relevant to his story most of the time?
Maybe the author expected you to read this chapter, analyze the unjust treatment of Ruby and begin to wonder how she ended up doing that same thing to Lloyd?
That is not how you engage in critical reading. Quite simply you can not escape the subconscious effect your experiences and knowledge have on your interpretation of a story. Just like an author can't escape it when writing a story (editors help curtail this). Our lived experiences and accumulated knowledge are a filter through which we engage with the world whether we like it or not.
My point being, it's good to look at this story's nobles and think "are they bad like they are in my world." Because some part of them is a reflection of our world. For me the answer is always yes when it comes to class based societies. I think it's an inherently oppressive system.
Not really that groundbreaking of a point when she's literally the only person who's ever been granted nobility through alchemy. "One-of-a-kind aristocraft." as they put it.
But hey, I don't think I'm going to convince you that Ruby started off good and went mad or that Lloyd should be more mindful of his friends' emotions and that's okay. But I hope I've at least given you some good food for thought. It's possible I've forgotten to include things as I wrote this over a period of 10 hours (not all at once thank god).
Looking forward to where the manga goes next cuz I genuinely have no idea.
"...a story has as many versions as it has readers. Everyone takes what he wants or can from it and thus changes it to his measure. Some pick out parts and reject the rest, some strain the story through their mesh of prejudice, some paint it with their own delight."
-John Steinbeck
I am not even going to entertain all of your post at this point. Because you clearly are insincere. I point out to you that no buildings have cracks on them like this building. You go into chapter to, skip over literally every single building that does no have cracks, and go to the stone wall, that has a vaguely similar pattern (and is in a bad part of town he's literally getting mugged her) and use that to say "Oh no the cracks are there all the time" and then try to cover yourself with "Oh no they're doing the dirty shading here" which you before called it "this is just how they do shading" and then even still ignored the whole reason I brought up the fact they were in the bad part of town to say "He still treated her bad that's all that matters".
No you are not being sincere at all and are just trying to worm your way around until you 'win'.
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page 22. Beautiful
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Someone has a different opinion then me and lays out why thus in this arguement of opinion he's trying to win.
I love this argument people literally just can't comprehend someone having a different perceptive of a story than then so they have to lie to themselves saying they're being insincere.
Holy shit he has a different opinion on a fucking comic than you just ignore it if you don't like it.
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Was this supposed to make us sympathetic towards Ruby? If so it failed spectacularly. The brat took advantage of Lloyd's naivety, put him down and ruined his self-esteem, and generally used him so that she could rise up in the world. No little tsundere act is going to in any way change my opinion of her as a terrible, manipulative, abusive, narcissistic brat.
Wow that's just a low IQ response. Why don't you read back. If it was an opinion, I'd keep going. I replied to them several times. It stops being an opinion when you willfully ignore facts, like you're doing now in order to twist reality to try to prove a point.
At least try to pay attention to what is going on if you're going to speak up.
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Her backstory is that she hated being looked down upon so she decided to look down upon others really lmao. This girls been manic since day one n she looked down upon Lloyd even back then too, there doesn’t seem to be much room for redemption.
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You're funny dance for me more.
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Hello, I am going to insert myself into this very specific part of your argument, and probably going to come off way more aggressively than I mean to, because I've been reading this back and forth on the buildings and it's driving me insane at this point.
First off, I'm not an architect or anything, but I think it's borderline insane to point to a building with a solid stone tower, a conical shingled roof, and inset pointed arches, and try to use it as an example of an indicator of being in a slum. The first panel of page 10 is obviously being used as an establishing shot for the merchant they're trying to sell the potion to, and it's, in my opinion, clearly trying to have the appearance of a market district on a main street. The buildings are ornate and made of sturdy materials; the store has a large fancy street sign; and the sky visible in the background gives a greater sense of space, possibly suggesting a wide road to the side, and showing that the next building is spaced far away from the shop, rather than the cramped corridors of a back alley or slum.
Which is in direct contrast to framing of panel 5. First of all, notice that this is another establishing shot, indicating that the location has changed. Now, the sky is no longer visible; the top of the panel is cut off by buildings on both sides, properly giving the sense of a cramped alley. The sign and ornate door from the potion buyer's shop is no longer visible, as this is clearly a different area, hence again the need for another establishing shot. This is no longer in front of the potion buyer's shop, but in an alleyway on the way to Lloyd and Ruby's home.
And this is a very interesting detail, because this is where the cracks and dirt start becoming very noticeable. Specifically, they become very prominent in the foreground, i.e. in the direction that Lloyd and Ruby are traveling in. You can still see some ornate structures in the background, such as the arched stone windows and buttresses, despite the background being lower resolution by nature, but the architecture in the foreground becomes simpler, more weathered, and dirtied.
I think this is actually a pretty clever and subtle piece of visual storytelling you both missed, which shows that Lloyd and Ruby are traveling away from a wealthier part of town where the potion buyer was, to the less wealthy slums in which their own home resides. This mirrors the narrative quite nicely in a way where the merchant refusing to buy Ruby's potion acts as a symbolic rejection of Ruby's status and failure or resistance to joining the merchant class, and acts as a reminder of her humble origins.
Anyways, this comment is honestly way too long and in-depth for such a silly point to be arguing over, but I thought it was a nice little detail that seemed to be going unnoticed.
Either way, regardless of what the buildings look like, the point about Ruby being at fault for "choosing the wrong buyer" and "bringing them to a sketchy area" is completely fabricated and bogus. There's nothing in the text or art that suggests this was the case. The whole point of this section was to reinforce that all of Ruby's hard work and effort had always been in service of rejecting her own social status and in indignation of the higher class. But I don't really want to invest myself into this debate anymore than I already have, so I'll leave it at that.
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