Japanese is a vague language. There's no two ways about it. However we're not reading Japanese. We're reading it in English that has been translated from Japanese. And for English speakers that vagueness does not translate well. In fact keeping things vague tends to read more as frustration than as "being faithful". Which is why no one complained when "they" was used when Kou's gender was unknown. But once known it should be acknowledged and used as such. No one cares about kun. Male or female people will just read it as a Japanaese honourific. They don't exit in English so we just read it as is and it doesn't mean much. However we do use pronouns in English and women use she. We know Kou is a girl. She is a she. She's not trans, she doesn't have special circumstances, she hasn't stated her preferred pronouns, so we should remove the vagueness when translating and have it written as she. It's pretty simple stuff and basic English.
Otaku ni Koi wa Muzukashii - Vol. 9 Ch. 66
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
@judevin28 Honestly I think it's disrespectful to use gender-neutral pronouns for Kou. I am not triggered over it, I am 100% in support of using gender neutral pronouns, or whichever pronouns, for those who prefer them.
It is inaccurate to the spirit of translation to use "they" for Kou. Kou is a woman who identifies as a woman. Accuracy in the original language, when translating, is not to be held up to the exclusion of accuracy in the translated language (in this case, English, in which the use of a "they" pronoun is both marked and inaccurate), and not just accuracy but approximate actual use. "They" is a specific pronoun and not a default one, and using it here goes against the entire foundation of the "mistaken gender" trope in Japanese, which is founded on the premise that it occurs through casual omission.
Furthermore, I find it offensive to the spirit of using people's preferred pronouns, and to non-binary and gender fluid individuals. When people have preferred pronouns and it's offensive not to use them, that is in fact those people saying that pronouns do matter. If pronouns didn't matter, people would not ask that others use particular pronouns. In fact, I have heard people who don't believe in using others' preferred pronouns using the argument "why does it matter?"
Kou does not mind if masculine language is used for her, but in Japanese it is not as marked for her to do so. In English it is. We might wish that were not the case, that there was a single all-encompassing gender-neutral pronoun that was not marked when used for people whom everyone knows the gender of. Alas, there is not.
Kou is a girl. She identifies as a girl, not as non-binary or gender fluid, though she does not insist on claiming this identity in every interaction. Everyone talking about her in these scenes knows she's a girl. The people reading manga online generally know about the pronoun thing in Japanese, and will make room for whatever method you use to get around it, except for purposefully using the incorrect pronouns (in terms of what actual people would say in English). Even if there was a concern that readers didn't know about it, as with officially translated manga, so many people have found ways to get around it without using "they." It's not cute and it's not clever. It's incorrect. There is no objectively correct way to translate, as no languages are 1-to-1 word-for-word translatable, carrying all nuance and specificity into the new language. But there are objectively incorrect ways, and this is one of them.
Edit: @Grimwear Yes, preach.
It is inaccurate to the spirit of translation to use "they" for Kou. Kou is a woman who identifies as a woman. Accuracy in the original language, when translating, is not to be held up to the exclusion of accuracy in the translated language (in this case, English, in which the use of a "they" pronoun is both marked and inaccurate), and not just accuracy but approximate actual use. "They" is a specific pronoun and not a default one, and using it here goes against the entire foundation of the "mistaken gender" trope in Japanese, which is founded on the premise that it occurs through casual omission.
Furthermore, I find it offensive to the spirit of using people's preferred pronouns, and to non-binary and gender fluid individuals. When people have preferred pronouns and it's offensive not to use them, that is in fact those people saying that pronouns do matter. If pronouns didn't matter, people would not ask that others use particular pronouns. In fact, I have heard people who don't believe in using others' preferred pronouns using the argument "why does it matter?"
Kou does not mind if masculine language is used for her, but in Japanese it is not as marked for her to do so. In English it is. We might wish that were not the case, that there was a single all-encompassing gender-neutral pronoun that was not marked when used for people whom everyone knows the gender of. Alas, there is not.
Kou is a girl. She identifies as a girl, not as non-binary or gender fluid, though she does not insist on claiming this identity in every interaction. Everyone talking about her in these scenes knows she's a girl. The people reading manga online generally know about the pronoun thing in Japanese, and will make room for whatever method you use to get around it, except for purposefully using the incorrect pronouns (in terms of what actual people would say in English). Even if there was a concern that readers didn't know about it, as with officially translated manga, so many people have found ways to get around it without using "they." It's not cute and it's not clever. It's incorrect. There is no objectively correct way to translate, as no languages are 1-to-1 word-for-word translatable, carrying all nuance and specificity into the new language. But there are objectively incorrect ways, and this is one of them.
Edit: @Grimwear Yes, preach.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2018
- Messages
- 51
@epicfail48 if the story is being told from a person A perspective who thinks person B is the opposite gender even though the readers know the truth, its fully acceptable to have person A refer to person B as what sex they think they are. in this example it was just as easy to say he was very timid, until he was, he has a job, nothing would have been lost it would fit more naturally. the way they is used just dosent fit. like most people when someone hears they, they dont think it as referring to one person even though it can be. thats at least my issue.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2018
- Messages
- 1,103
The place she works at looks awfully like an Animate.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2019
- Messages
- 1,690
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2020
- Messages
- 7
Who cares i just wanted enjoy the story man ......
Aggregator gang
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2019
- Messages
- 231
Actually there is, in English is called "it".
However, people refuse to use "it" when referring to other people because it's "inappropriate" and "dehumanizing".
We as a POLITE and RESPECTFUL society, must reject this BIGOTED, RACIST, HOMOPHOBIC, TRANSPHOBIC, FASCIST, ISLAMAPHOBIC, AND OTHER DISGUSTING -IST AND -PHOBIC IDEA.
Because it is A FACT that all objects and animals are as important as humans, and we humans are all equally worthless as the dirt beneath our shoes.
RISE COMRADES, WE WILL TAKE DOWN THE EVIL DRUMPFLER AND BRING IN A NEW AGE OF HUMANITY, HEIL THE GREAT RESET, LET US ALL BUILD BACK BETTERER
LOVE THIS
CUTE
not an angel
thanks for translating and stay safe!!
happy holidays
@nutman451 thats fair
CUTE
not an angel
thanks for translating and stay safe!!
happy holidays
@nutman451 thats fair
@Vemasi Thank you, you basically said everything I came to vent about and I can see you know your translation theory, unlike some other people here (epicfail48,judevin28). No, using "they" and "them" here is absolutely not appropriate. It is just incorrect, nothing more nothing less. If you genuinely think people are being upset over the gender neutral pronouns for any reason other than it simply being wrong, you're probably projecting something.
Her being called with -kun stems from the joke earlier in the manga where Nao didn't know she was a girl. After he found out they had a conversation where it was decided they would keep using it as her nickname. The joke is over, there is no more "is it a girl? Is it a boy?", That chapter is long gone. If this was in english, they would not be using "they" or "them" to refer to Kou because the ambiguity is no longer important. The only reason it might still seem ambiguous is simply the lack of use of pronouns in japanese. If you really want to keep it gender neutral, the best way to do it is to use her name. No, it doesn't sound quite natural in english but at least it's not incorrect.
And to the translator, please don't think any of this is directed at you, I am not faulting you for anything more than a minor mistranslation since I do not believe the choice to use "they" and "them" was anything other than to keep the ambiguity going. I just strongly disagree with that choice.
Oh, and if anyone insists on pulling out that card, even though this really has nothing to do with it, I literally am transgender, and I disliked the use of "they" and "them" here. Because it is wrong, nothing else. So shut up with your stupid political opinions, they don't belong here.
Her being called with -kun stems from the joke earlier in the manga where Nao didn't know she was a girl. After he found out they had a conversation where it was decided they would keep using it as her nickname. The joke is over, there is no more "is it a girl? Is it a boy?", That chapter is long gone. If this was in english, they would not be using "they" or "them" to refer to Kou because the ambiguity is no longer important. The only reason it might still seem ambiguous is simply the lack of use of pronouns in japanese. If you really want to keep it gender neutral, the best way to do it is to use her name. No, it doesn't sound quite natural in english but at least it's not incorrect.
And to the translator, please don't think any of this is directed at you, I am not faulting you for anything more than a minor mistranslation since I do not believe the choice to use "they" and "them" was anything other than to keep the ambiguity going. I just strongly disagree with that choice.
Oh, and if anyone insists on pulling out that card, even though this really has nothing to do with it, I literally am transgender, and I disliked the use of "they" and "them" here. Because it is wrong, nothing else. So shut up with your stupid political opinions, they don't belong here.
Active member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2020
- Messages
- 305
Thanks for translating!
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2019
- Messages
- 94
ITS FINALLY HAPPENING
@Grimwear, @Vemasi, and @IceCubed are right. This really wasn't about gender identity or stuff. This was about the inconsistency with the pronouns used. One panel has Nao refer to Kou to with she/her while at the same time his friends are referring to her with her name or with they, and yet a few pages later he himself also calls her they? It's just really confusing and took me out of the reading experience.
Everyone knows that Japanese is vague when it comes to pronouns so they're not complaining about that. I'm giving the translators the benefit of the doubt because they're doing this for free and I highly appreciate it, but the inconsistency was just confusing. It's not like there's any remaining confusion/discussion regarding her gender in the story that would warrant such a discourse? Again, this is about inconsistency.
(And before anyone comes at me, I will in fact buy the official releases).
Everyone knows that Japanese is vague when it comes to pronouns so they're not complaining about that. I'm giving the translators the benefit of the doubt because they're doing this for free and I highly appreciate it, but the inconsistency was just confusing. It's not like there's any remaining confusion/discussion regarding her gender in the story that would warrant such a discourse? Again, this is about inconsistency.
(And before anyone comes at me, I will in fact buy the official releases).
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2018
- Messages
- 271
Came here wondering if there was something I missed where Kou identified as something other than a woman, but it doesn't seem like it. If the friend triad aren't using singular they out of ambiguity because they're unsure, and they aren't using singular they because Kou has said something about not identifying as a woman, then why aren't they just using she?
I get pronouns are hard in Japanese-to-English translation, but using singular they implies something that I don't think the text implies.
(Now if the intent of the TL is to imply that the triad are still retaining ambiguity, after being told to keep using -kun, I think that's a valid decision. A TL note about that intent would be nice though. Thanks for the translation in any case, I'm sorry you're going to come back to a lengthy thread of folks confused about this and other folks being hostile about it.)
I get pronouns are hard in Japanese-to-English translation, but using singular they implies something that I don't think the text implies.
(Now if the intent of the TL is to imply that the triad are still retaining ambiguity, after being told to keep using -kun, I think that's a valid decision. A TL note about that intent would be nice though. Thanks for the translation in any case, I'm sorry you're going to come back to a lengthy thread of folks confused about this and other folks being hostile about it.)
Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2019
- Messages
- 362
Jeeez. Calm down everyone. It's just a gender neutral pronoun, which does not negate the fact that nao and kou are attracted to each other. Who cares if kou is a woman or a gender neutral person as long as nao doesn't have a problem with it (since he's the one who's going to be romantically involved)
I don’t see how this is difficult. They stuck with Kou-kun because it’s a nickname and she doesn’t care. There is no deep gender politics involved. Female characters can be referred to as -kun (see DanMachi for example). They is also a neutral singular pronoun, which pretty much all of us English speakers use in our day to day lives without thinking about, including to refer to people whose gender is clear and unambiguous. Again, no deep gender politics involved.
