Patreon is banning Japanese art

[crazybars]

@o8o

======Patreon Bias against Japanese Style Artwork

Yes, Patreon has made it abundantly clear that they have an extreme bias against Japanese style art. The Japanese artists were the 1st to bring this to attention on twitter because it affects them the most, they also brought it to attention that Patreon was specifically targeting what they themselves call "Japanese style Artwork". The twitter posts about the Patreon delistings are more numerous on the Japanese side. Needless to say, they have all moved on from Patreon, and they are not pleased.

=============Why I don't like Corporations practicing Politics

As for Politics, the reason I don't like companies injecting their own preferred politics (of ANY TYPE BTW) into their content is that it's quite simple. There are many actual concrete examples of them twisting and corrupting the original Japanese work to pander to politics they're more comfortable with. How do you trust the companies to translate to keep the original intent and accuracy of the original work when they're basically acting like a Political organization.?

When Viz Media, Funimation and Crunchyroll have increasingly expressed political views and made extremely politically motivated moves AND we have concrete examples of them already corrupting the accuracy of the Japanese source material beyond simple localization for political pandering, how can you trust them to not make Politically motivated translation and dubbing choices to Anime and Manga in the future simply to pander to politics they favor? You can't, their politics and their work have essentially become one and the same, and it's their own damn fault.


I don't actually care what type of politics they're pushing, I don't pay Crunchyroll, Funimation and Viz Media to play Politics and intentionally leaving out Japanese Material they're uncomfortable with. That's stupid, what right does Crunchyoll, Funimation and Viz have to judge Japanese culture in that way and gate keep what is acceptable and not to Western Audiences?

 

[Greenfrost]

@crazybars
The anime companies themselves aren't the real problem here. Similar stuff is happening in the world of movies and gaming too. The current political climate is the real culprit. People are only becoming more and more angry, toxic and radical; and, I'm predicting it'll get way worse after the 2020 election, regardless of who wins. Honestly, at this point. I'd even be willing to try the purge route. Maybe it would finally calm down everyone's bloodlust.

Personally, I'm just glad (and surprised) a lot of anime even comes out here without being heavily censored. If a show like Goblin Slayer came out as an American show on an American Network, there would've been like 30 articles complaining about it, and thousands of angry twitter posts. It would never work. So, in a way, I think we're somewhat lucky, for now.

 

[missy115]

Right?? Im actually worried about the fate of japanese anime and manga. I just really hope that this won't affect future works. I mean, we all watch/read them for entertainment purposes. Why must they make everything political? They have already successfully done (ruined) it to hollywood. Can they atleast just spare us this? 🤔

 

[Holo]

Patreon can ban whoever, there will always be another site willing to support them.

 

[AgentKuga]

thank you everyone, my brain is partially melted now but reading all of this has been very enlightening

 

[ad_chiat]

@missy115 what are you talking about dude. Some of the best works of art have been explicitly political in nature. Think about metal gear series or cyberpunk genre.

 

[Greenfrost]

@ad_chiat

Making something like a movie/game/comic/novel that has a political stance isn't the problem. It's nothing new, and it's perfectly fine. Although, the problems with domestic media is a different ballgame. In terms of anime or foreign media, I only disagree when companies changing the translations, to express they own stance. Keep it close to the original as much as possible, and if you don't like what's said in it, then don't bring it over. Although, that's just my opinion.

Also, Holo is absolutely right. Patreon has every right to do what they did, even if most people think it's stupid and misinformed.

 

[o8o]

Sorry for the late replies.

@CrimsonDarkh
I hear you and it seems that we are broadly in agreement with each other. I just want to make a few minor points:
- I meant anime and manga related journalistic sources like ANN, MAL, kotaku.com, animeuknews.net etc.
- I too am against a broad and ambiguous criteria of censorship but think specific, targeted restriction is acceptable and sometimes necessary.
- Attitudes towards non-heterosexual behavior have varied and changed throughout history. The latest shift from discrimination to acceptance came about through activism which often utilised creative expression.

@crazybars
- It seems to me Patreon is actively banning only "sexualized depictions of minors". The only thing this has to do with anime and manga art is that loli/shota is an established genre within this community. There is no blanket ban.
- Q:"How do you trust companies...?"
A: I don't.
- Q:"What right does Crunchyoll, Funimation and Viz have to gatekeep?"
A: It's not a question of rights but of power. They have the power because of the current distribution model, monopoly benefits and general corporate power vested by the capitalist system.

@Greenfrost
The first point to note is that while the domestic US scenario disproportionately affects the rest of the world, including the anime and manga industry, this discussion is not confined to the US.
The second is that the polarisation in US society (and elsewhere) is being driven by decisions made by Silicon Valley corporations and their financial backers, which as I've already said I consider political. My argument is that this has always been the case but that these actions should be judged by their ethical implications, so in the case of:
- Patreon banning "sexualized depictions of minors"; probably good.
- Viz etc. modifying original content; mostly annoying but also ethically dubious.
- Facebook etc. leaning their algorithims towards extreme views in order to maximise engagement (ie profit) and other similar practises; very bad by all ethical standards because of the scale and magnitude of the consequences.

@Holo
Exactly, but it goes deeper than that (see below).

@AgentKuga @ad_chiat
This may be is offtopic... so I created a new thread: (Edit: https://mangadex.org/thread/238664 ) but this entire discussion ties in with it neatly.

 

[firelight]

Just make your own site lol!
*Gets DDoSed so then you need to let cloudflare man-in-the-middle all of your site's traffic*
*Hosting provider bans your account*
*ISP cancels your service*
*Payment processing companies refuse to work with you*
Nothing personal. 😎 The internet sure is fun these days!

 

[Bluee]

"of course and please don't even bother with the whole "your fictional fetishes show your true characters/personalities"only delusional people would think that smh like some people is not even pedophile and just find loli characters cute but of course there is some people that would have ulterior motives and that is why they like loli characters and would try to do it in real life like how people that watch porn would do it in real life when its all staged but i guess some people are just too desperate and can`t get anyone in their own age group that they would result in that like how people have a non consexual sex because you know they are too delusional and desperate they all lose their reasoning and brain cells that all they can think about is lust and sex smh people can go so low to the point that they become trash and the only thing they keep thinking about is sex because they watch too much porn i am pretty sure a normal person just doing their thing and that person would think they are flirting or want to have sex like i can`t believe there are people like that. People can be really like a nasty animal and the lowest of the lowest scum of the earth. One of the reason i just want to be gone from this fucked up world

Td:lr People not realizing they are delusional and desperate for human interaction to the point they would just outright hurt or harass people

 

[crazybars]

@o8o
**Edit: Okay now that I think about it, you're taking Patreon's announcement at face value. You really shouldn't. They sent those Ban criteria notices directly to all those Anime and Manga stlye Artists. I posted a few more tweets you can go through, but the context is basically only Anime and Manga style artists got those notifications, not the Western Style Sexualized artwork.

Just read up to the =====XXXXX bar divider at least please. I feel very strongly about the topic because this has happened before. Some people in the Western world associated Anime and Manga with Porn back in the 1980s-90s and used that to politically discredit the entire Industry and stunt it's growth. It's not a new viewpoint, I've seen it all before, and I don't like that this particular trick is returning.

If you ultimately still disagree, well let's respectfully disagree and I'll see you around. 🙂
**

It seems to me Patreon is actively banning only "sexualized depictions of minors"

Why are you repeating Patreon's Official statement to the letter. That's not what the Evidence supports. Besides, Patreon's main moderator said this remember?
-------------------------
lisavollrath: THE Moderator for the Patreon reddit.

Forgive me, but this particular type of art is pretty famous for depicting young girls in sexual situations. I don't think artists can benefit from the fetishizing of young girls, and then backpedal, and say they're really drawing adults. You can't have it both ways.

(link to original comment)
https://old.reddit.com/r/patreon/comments/fho2ii/patreons_ban_on_anime_art/fke3i4h/

(Thread about subject posted on official Patreon reddit)
https://old.reddit.com/r/patreon/comments/fho2ii/patreons_ban_on_anime_art/
------------------------
You trust the Company that approved of this Moderator who openly said all Anime and Manga has a history with Loli Porn. In public!! On the Patreon reddit thread someone posted concerns that what Patreon sent in their ban notification were vague enough to say all Japanese style artwork was Loli Porn and ban it. . . . . .

I would call that extremely stupid to believe Patreon's statement at face value when their own Moderator has that bias that Anime and Manga is associated with Loli Porn.

Oh, might I add, thanks to some of the Artists who got hit with Patreon ban notifications posted what they got sent remember?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETCV-HLU4AAXvsq.png:small

This was sent to Anime and Manga style artwork artists. Tell me, who draws Anime and Manga style characters with Small head, Small eyes, Mature face, *NOT AN INNOCENT FACE, with Curves and Big Busts like the Ideal Western sexual characteristics? Quite a coincidence all the bannable traits are the traits used to draw Anime and Manga and it was sent to Anime and Manga stlye artists hmmm?

==================XXXXXXXXXXX=======================
But whatever, let's go over the evidence again? Remember, it was the artists who got sent the Ban notifications, they were the 1st to draw the conclusion that Patreon was basically targeting Anime and Manga
Style. Japanese Style in Japan)

-->One of the artists that complained on March 13th 2020. Take a look at what they concluded and that they set up a Gumroad account as a safety net. The Artist concluded it was a vague ban intentionally aimed at Manga and Anime drawings.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/news-about-34847910

--> More Artists supporting this conclusion Tweets.
https://mobile.twitter.com/kakuume/status/1238164840671137797/photo/1
https://mobile.twitter.com/krabbytheartist/status/1238688118548692993

Original thread poster posted this tweet.
https://mobile.twitter.com/bbq_bq/status/1238152877022957569

Patreon's Notification sent to the Artists
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETCV-HLU4AAXvsq.png:small

Guy who posted this pic at Patreon.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Tim_at_where/status/1238654799760871425/photo/1


The other forum threads I posted already. . . . . . . . which I again might add were filled with people who double checked all the Twitter posts Claims and evidence whatever. AND FOUND NOTHING WRONG with the artists claims about the conclusion that Patreon was targeting Anime and Manga artwork (Japanese style artwork)

https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/fi7jjd/patreon_says_they_are_not_banning_anime_but_do/
https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/fiifvh/censorship_an_example_of_the_content_that_patreon/
https://forum.novelupdates.com/threads/patreon-banning-anime-artist.101323/

And I dug this stuff weeks ago. And I posted it in those giant posts earlier. . . . . There's probably some more you can find now.

*edit: spelling errors.

 

[CrimsonDarkh]

@Greenfrost

People are only becoming more and more angry, toxic and radical; and, I'm predicting it'll get way worse after the 2020 election, regardless of who wins. Honestly, at this point. I'd even be willing to try the purge route. Maybe it would finally calm down everyone's bloodlust

well if war was answer to anything we wouldn't avoid it with so much effort, the cycle of hate is a thing and war just introduces more problems than it solves several examples can be seen today of the consequences it brings and the problems it creates.

What you interpret as angry i would say dissatisfaction and the slow realization of several that for one Banks aren't here to serve them but to make money and they are willing to lie for it, while our justice system can't really do anything about it because they know the law better than the actual court houses or a better understating of how the justice system actually works to not mention other possibilities around the topic of corruption.

The toxicity i would dare say that's the lack of education and the accumulation of stress of city life, probably the reason why some few are considering moving to the country side while they are young, and i won't belittle the impact of media on the citizens it's truly toxic environment to watch the news for more than the average 45 minutes.

@o8o

I too am against a broad and ambiguous criteria of censorship but think specific, targeted restriction is acceptable and sometimes necessary.

I can't acknowledge exceptions in these circumstances they need to actually word the rule correctly, this way they are violating the equality of all creators and their "Artistic freedom".

Now if this was targeted correctly to something worth to be censor this conversation would be different; in real life nudism is considered art and natural, it isn't censored in our society (example: whatever biology book that has the reproductive system) and it's not deemed unlawful except for some circumstances so why should fictional depictions of that be censored? (and then starts the moral discussion)

In the examples crazybars gave us in the links those works can only be categorized as echi not even close to soft-porn i have seen commercials using real life actors showing more skin while behaving more closely to R+18 content during afternoons on live TV and it's still possible to watch several of them on youtube just to mention the old commercials.

While i can understand that actions need to be made this whole situation is a bad example on how to do it, they even did not allow links to sites that actually ask for identification before giving you access to the content, that in my opinion is going to far.

 

[iClone101]

Censorship is going way too far. At this rate, art sculptures are going to be removed from museums because you can see penises and nipples on them.

 

[Mr_Detective]

I'm kinda late to this. Isn't there an alternative to patreon? Like pixiv? Don't Japanese have their own version of patreon? Not that I am even familiar much with these things... It sucks, but it's their own website, so they do whatever the please. People will just have to use alternatives.

I'm also out of the loop about Viz and FUNi playing politics. But nevertheless, fan translations will prosper even more if that happens.

Funny that this is similar to Sony's new policies regarding anime games.

Naruto: 12 year-old kids fighting to the death and bleeding all over = cool.
DBZ: The whole planet is destroyed, killing everyone = still cool.
Anime games with girls showing skin = outrage.

 

[CrimsonDarkh]

@Mr_Detective there are alternatives and patreon isn't really a place of content sharing like pixiv but a place for crowd funding.

Still it's undeniable the popularity growth patreon has been getting, more and more creators have been using it and their fans share a positive consensus of wanting to participate in this kind of funding approach even though there being examples of pure robbery and no way of getting refunds once those things happen.

Even though i share the same opinion as you creators can easily move on to another place to get their funding using other models or just use the same model but in another site, i can also see the validity of creators reclaiming their rights it's not like patreon produces anything it's just a intermediary aiming to facilitate fans funding creators projects and patreon does have laws and rules they have to bow down to and respect.

 

[o8o]

I've been offline for a while, hence the very late replies.

@crazybars
I've read all that you've posted but I don't want to necro this thread so instead of a long reply I'll just agree with you that Anime and Manga is more than porn and respectfully disagree on the rest.

@CrimsonDarkh
Same as above, thank you for your replies but I think we'll leave this discussion for another day.

 

[ShionSinX]

Its just a sidenote on the manga topic: the Japanese publishers are SAVAGE when it comes to exporting their stuff. You have to publish the way they want it, down to the colors used (sometimes they wont allow even to use the same cover colors so only the original has it "right"; no joke). Any change on the translation has to go through them and if they dont like it, you cant publish it. You changed to be like they asked? You have to send them again so they can check it and say if thats fine.

So I dont think manga is going to get aimed the way you think, what I could see tho is that the western market might not see some titles at all instead of 'politically adjusted' translations of said mangas.

 

[comedyxtragedy]

Honestly, the rule regardless of CP get really blurred. Okay, maybe no NSFW but how about just cute little children holds a flower or just cute stuff general? Will it get impact as well?

Getting to see art is harder. Guess twitter is next. If that happens, I just create pixiv...

 

[Highlander]

Sounds just like those prejudice/bigots 'violent audio/video = makes people commit real life violence'.
Every single study that tried to link real life violence to violent media (both real and fake), came back stating there was zero correlation.
It is just another hate group, labeling/grouping people or groups of people always, always leads down the wrong path.

I bet studies would also find zero correlation between "sexualized fantasy" and real life violent acts,
hell I would even go as far as saying no correlation even between "real life porn" and real life violent acts.

Hey, statistically every real life murderer ate at McDonalds at some point in their life prior to them murdering...
that doesn't mean every person that ate at McDonalds will become a murderer.... not everyone that saw sexualized object (real or fake) will become rapers.

People that really hurt other people, don't do it because they consumed it in some media for fucks sake.

Knowledge will save us. Ignorance will harm us.

 

[TestAddress]

Patreon made a wise decision, since AI art ripped them all off.