Pluto - Vol. 8 Ch. 65
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Wow. this was a great ride. Even though its based on an existing story( the greatest robots in the world arc,) it still had a
fresh, original feel to it.
10 out of 10
fresh, original feel to it.
10 out of 10
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Mildly disappointing ending.
Certainly not the worst I have read recently, but it felt like the author(s) did not know quite what to do all the ideas and implications they stirred up in their story. In the end it felt that they over-simplified things in a few ways in order to wrap things up quickly and with their intended "love conquers all" message.
Though, in an interesting way, that does sort of parallel the idea presented in the story that a perfect AI, conscious of all the world's complications, nuance, and chaos could not awaken. It would be forever bogged down, just like this story could have been, by unanswerable problems. The authors chose to simplify it down to "love" or "heart" (or perhaps "life") and so let the ending awaken.
Perhaps a bit less justifiably, I take issue with BRAU-1589 (maybe got the numbers wrong) doing Atom's dirty work in the end. Seems like a cheap way for Atom (and the authors) to have his cake and eat it too. "Love conquers all, so long as you have some tough guy to beat everyone else into line for you," ought to be the real message.
Still, was so thought-provoking throughout, well-structured, engrossing, and balanced (not overly biased or preachy in any direction except maybe near the very end) that I can't help but give it 10/10.
Certainly not the worst I have read recently, but it felt like the author(s) did not know quite what to do all the ideas and implications they stirred up in their story. In the end it felt that they over-simplified things in a few ways in order to wrap things up quickly and with their intended "love conquers all" message.
Though, in an interesting way, that does sort of parallel the idea presented in the story that a perfect AI, conscious of all the world's complications, nuance, and chaos could not awaken. It would be forever bogged down, just like this story could have been, by unanswerable problems. The authors chose to simplify it down to "love" or "heart" (or perhaps "life") and so let the ending awaken.
Perhaps a bit less justifiably, I take issue with BRAU-1589 (maybe got the numbers wrong) doing Atom's dirty work in the end. Seems like a cheap way for Atom (and the authors) to have his cake and eat it too. "Love conquers all, so long as you have some tough guy to beat everyone else into line for you," ought to be the real message.
Still, was so thought-provoking throughout, well-structured, engrossing, and balanced (not overly biased or preachy in any direction except maybe near the very end) that I can't help but give it 10/10.
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I like all the mystery and character bits being solved but yeah the love fixes everything bit is ehh.
brau-1589.. killing skynet bear but not bush? i thought you were cool.. wait how far did it just crawl to get there? what a weird post-credits scene.
brau-1589.. killing skynet bear but not bush? i thought you were cool.. wait how far did it just crawl to get there? what a weird post-credits scene.
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@Ceildric
I wouldn't say that Brau did "the dirty work" for Atom at the end. Brau, a robot who was able to kill humans despite all the reasons he shouldn't have been able to, chose not to kill the President because, in the end, the President was just as much of a pawn as nearly everyone else was; having felt Atom's (and by extension, Geicsht's) heart.
Brau left his "prison" before the threat was over, given how Roosevelt thought that the super volcano was still going to erupt and destroy human life. So Atom and Brau had decided that, if Atom won or lost, whatever world came out from the resolution of Bora's threat, that world didn't need someone like Roosevelt to "guide it". After all, "nothing can be born from hatred"; whether that was a world inherited by robots or shared with humanity.
I wouldn't say that Brau did "the dirty work" for Atom at the end. Brau, a robot who was able to kill humans despite all the reasons he shouldn't have been able to, chose not to kill the President because, in the end, the President was just as much of a pawn as nearly everyone else was; having felt Atom's (and by extension, Geicsht's) heart.
Brau left his "prison" before the threat was over, given how Roosevelt thought that the super volcano was still going to erupt and destroy human life. So Atom and Brau had decided that, if Atom won or lost, whatever world came out from the resolution of Bora's threat, that world didn't need someone like Roosevelt to "guide it". After all, "nothing can be born from hatred"; whether that was a world inherited by robots or shared with humanity.
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@biznizz
You basically explained why I see it as Brau doing "the dirty work". The dirty work in this case is destroying / killing whatever is deemed to be evil / guilty / other / uncivilized / unacceptable in society / etc. As you point out, at least from Atom's / manga author's perspective, the President was not deemed evil enough to warrant death. Perhaps his actions could be understood / justified in some way. Perhaps he can be rehabilitated and still have a place in future society. Perhaps he just no longer poses any threat.
Roosevelt, it seems to be suggested, would not ever change and would always pose a threat. And indeed his level of threat would be far more dangerous than what any human, even a president, could impose on the world. Plus, the author and many characters seem to have decided that "the buck stops" with Roosevelt. That is to say, there he is the root cause of all the other evils in the story.
But, Atom did indeed say "nothing can be born from hatred" and it was repeated a couple times to make a point of it. It's as I say a "love conquers all" sort of message. In the face of hatred one would face it with love and kindness rather than meeting hatred with hatred (which Atom did briefly toy with in the Pluto fight). And indeed, Atom did apply this with Pluto.
This is in contrast to a traditional hate vs hate, "good" beats down "evil" type scenario in stories.
However, what to do (in a story or in real life) when the "evil" (in this case Roosevelt) does not get won over by "love" and instead he still wants to follow through with his plans? Either the person espousing "nothing can be born from hatred" must become a hypocrite (only showing love to those that do as one wishes) or that person martyrs himself or that person is conveniently saved by someone else doing the "dirty work".
Thus, Atom gets Brau to kill Roosevelt. Atom does not have to sully his saintly, innocent image that denies any value to hatred because anyone in universe (and anyone not reading too closely) his message "nothing comes from hatred" seems consistent. And he and the world get to live in a world free of Roosevelt thanks to Brau who does not subscribe to any such philosophy. Indeed, it is thanks to Brau's "hatred" that the world has a much greater degree of peace and order. Something came of hatred after all.
You basically explained why I see it as Brau doing "the dirty work". The dirty work in this case is destroying / killing whatever is deemed to be evil / guilty / other / uncivilized / unacceptable in society / etc. As you point out, at least from Atom's / manga author's perspective, the President was not deemed evil enough to warrant death. Perhaps his actions could be understood / justified in some way. Perhaps he can be rehabilitated and still have a place in future society. Perhaps he just no longer poses any threat.
Roosevelt, it seems to be suggested, would not ever change and would always pose a threat. And indeed his level of threat would be far more dangerous than what any human, even a president, could impose on the world. Plus, the author and many characters seem to have decided that "the buck stops" with Roosevelt. That is to say, there he is the root cause of all the other evils in the story.
But, Atom did indeed say "nothing can be born from hatred" and it was repeated a couple times to make a point of it. It's as I say a "love conquers all" sort of message. In the face of hatred one would face it with love and kindness rather than meeting hatred with hatred (which Atom did briefly toy with in the Pluto fight). And indeed, Atom did apply this with Pluto.
This is in contrast to a traditional hate vs hate, "good" beats down "evil" type scenario in stories.
However, what to do (in a story or in real life) when the "evil" (in this case Roosevelt) does not get won over by "love" and instead he still wants to follow through with his plans? Either the person espousing "nothing can be born from hatred" must become a hypocrite (only showing love to those that do as one wishes) or that person martyrs himself or that person is conveniently saved by someone else doing the "dirty work".
Thus, Atom gets Brau to kill Roosevelt. Atom does not have to sully his saintly, innocent image that denies any value to hatred because anyone in universe (and anyone not reading too closely) his message "nothing comes from hatred" seems consistent. And he and the world get to live in a world free of Roosevelt thanks to Brau who does not subscribe to any such philosophy. Indeed, it is thanks to Brau's "hatred" that the world has a much greater degree of peace and order. Something came of hatred after all.
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Things Darius did wrong:
[ul]
[li]Ruled a country where people weren't nice to robots, because Persia is the one place on earth where the leader is responsible for the behaviour and crimes in the entire country.[/li]
[li]Held a grudge against those involved in his country being invaded for fabricated reasons.[/li]
[li]Nearly blew his own head off because he was losing a war started over scary dangerous robots because he didn't have any but the other side that said those were dangerous had 7.[/li]
[li]Took an opportunity to get payback for the war when it came looking for him. (He didn't even go looking for payback)[/li]
[li]Refuse to cooperate with the kangaroo court looking to have him disgraced and executed for their stupid war, on more than 100 separate occasions.[/li]
[li]Drew flowers on his cells wall in crayon without permission.[/li]
[li]Probably lied to Geschite when he said he wasn't being treated badly[/li]
[li]Bit off his own tongue to spite a robot that helped his country become demolished[/li]
[li]He looked a bit like Saddam.[/li]
[/ul]
F R E E _ D A R I U S
[ul]
[li]Ruled a country where people weren't nice to robots, because Persia is the one place on earth where the leader is responsible for the behaviour and crimes in the entire country.[/li]
[li]Held a grudge against those involved in his country being invaded for fabricated reasons.[/li]
[li]Nearly blew his own head off because he was losing a war started over scary dangerous robots because he didn't have any but the other side that said those were dangerous had 7.[/li]
[li]Took an opportunity to get payback for the war when it came looking for him. (He didn't even go looking for payback)[/li]
[li]Refuse to cooperate with the kangaroo court looking to have him disgraced and executed for their stupid war, on more than 100 separate occasions.[/li]
[li]Drew flowers on his cells wall in crayon without permission.[/li]
[li]Probably lied to Geschite when he said he wasn't being treated badly[/li]
[li]Bit off his own tongue to spite a robot that helped his country become demolished[/li]
[li]He looked a bit like Saddam.[/li]
[/ul]
F R E E _ D A R I U S
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A bit underwhelming, but the manga as a whole was very atmospheric nonetheless
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😀
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Eh I had high hopes for this manga, but they fell short. The beginning (first 35ish chapters) was really good, and then they kept introducing new interesting ideas without any kind of meaningful resolution beyond standard plot bs. I agree with most of @Ceildric 's opinions, but I had many more complaints about this manga. 7/10 for me
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Great series overall, but it felt to me like it collapsed at the end. Understandable, given it was a rewrite of a classic work, and the creators have all since said that in hindsight they probably wouldn't have touched this after all.
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Came back and gave this great series a reread since we're getting an anime soon. I hope it does well! I first read this series 7-8 years ago, slowly, borrowing the volumes a few at a time from the public library I worked at. Definitely a good series to read in print, and I think each volume had an afterword.
@Ceildric
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You raised many good points and it got me thinking a lot deeper on the morals depicted in the story. I reached a different conclusion from you though - I don't think the story was going for a "love conquers all" message.
This is because in Atom's 2nd fight with Pluto, he said "You are a mass of hatred, but... my hatred is far greater". He gained the strength and conviction to defeat Pluto only after developing/absorbing hatred from the death of the other robots.
Also, it was Atom who requested Brau to kill Roosevelt, so Atom definitely doesn't believe that "love conquers all". As for why Atom didn't personally kill Roosevelt, there could be various reasons - powerful AIs can sense one another (just like how Roosevelt sensed Atom's revival), so Roosevelt would have prepared countermeasures if it sensed Atom approaching it. Atom attacking Roosevelt would have political implications (did Japan direct Atom to perform the attack?) and would land Atom himself in hot soup, which will impact his family, something which he certainly wants to avoid.
Lastly, Gesicht and Epsilon, the only other robots capable of defeating Pluto, got themselves killed and endangered the people/robots they love precisely because they spared the enemy.
So I would say that the message is more of "hatred, like love, is one of the emotions that makes us human. Both are important and should be applied judiciously and and moderation - completely embracing hatred and rejecting love, you'll end up like Dr. Abra; completely embracing love and rejecting hatred, you'll end up like Gesicht and Epsilon".
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You raised many good points and it got me thinking a lot deeper on the morals depicted in the story. I reached a different conclusion from you though - I don't think the story was going for a "love conquers all" message.
This is because in Atom's 2nd fight with Pluto, he said "You are a mass of hatred, but... my hatred is far greater". He gained the strength and conviction to defeat Pluto only after developing/absorbing hatred from the death of the other robots.
Also, it was Atom who requested Brau to kill Roosevelt, so Atom definitely doesn't believe that "love conquers all". As for why Atom didn't personally kill Roosevelt, there could be various reasons - powerful AIs can sense one another (just like how Roosevelt sensed Atom's revival), so Roosevelt would have prepared countermeasures if it sensed Atom approaching it. Atom attacking Roosevelt would have political implications (did Japan direct Atom to perform the attack?) and would land Atom himself in hot soup, which will impact his family, something which he certainly wants to avoid.
Lastly, Gesicht and Epsilon, the only other robots capable of defeating Pluto, got themselves killed and endangered the people/robots they love precisely because they spared the enemy.
So I would say that the message is more of "hatred, like love, is one of the emotions that makes us human. Both are important and should be applied judiciously and and moderation - completely embracing hatred and rejecting love, you'll end up like Dr. Abra; completely embracing love and rejecting hatred, you'll end up like Gesicht and Epsilon".
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The series centered around how Human and Robot can be different. If you see the original series, you can see how different the robot and human is but that it is but Urasawa made the robots to look like humans and can live like humans. The series tackling issue around how prejudice and emotion are irrelevant to the robots and how the robots see the life from the human side. Those issues are the reason why all 7 robots are embodied 1 emotion which represents human emotions. From Gesicht's hatred and curiosity, Montblanc's compassion, North #2's trauma, Brando's cheerfulness, Heracles's recklessness, Epsilon's love and Atom's kindness. All of them are tired from the great eastern conflict in the series and wishes to no longer become just a robot, but a person with soul that deemed them living.
However Dr. Roosevelt deemed the human are unnecessary symbolizes as the anti thesis of the 7 robots as Dr. Roosevelt is the only AI with the mind like the president and thinking like Dr. Abra.
However Dr. Roosevelt deemed the human are unnecessary symbolizes as the anti thesis of the 7 robots as Dr. Roosevelt is the only AI with the mind like the president and thinking like Dr. Abra.
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I think Brau not killing Roosevelt and killing the bear AI instead is a symbol of the hatred in the world being erased by kindness.
Maybe not Brau's kindness itself, but Brau went and killed the bear because his own heart was touched by Atom's and Gesicht's. Those two changed the way he saw the world. A robot that initially killed a human being reforms himself by eliminating someone who thrived on the world's hate. Roosevelt was just a puppet.
I understand the idea that Brau did the "dirty work" for Atom but it's not really a matter of who did it in the first place. I understand that Gesicht left Atom with his will, hatred and message to overcome it but... Hate can be overcome by anyone. It could've been Sahad, Atom, Gesicht or Brau. It's about, as people, liberating ourselves from hatred and oppressors, Brau was just the vehicle to convey that due to his history.
Maybe not Brau's kindness itself, but Brau went and killed the bear because his own heart was touched by Atom's and Gesicht's. Those two changed the way he saw the world. A robot that initially killed a human being reforms himself by eliminating someone who thrived on the world's hate. Roosevelt was just a puppet.
I understand the idea that Brau did the "dirty work" for Atom but it's not really a matter of who did it in the first place. I understand that Gesicht left Atom with his will, hatred and message to overcome it but... Hate can be overcome by anyone. It could've been Sahad, Atom, Gesicht or Brau. It's about, as people, liberating ourselves from hatred and oppressors, Brau was just the vehicle to convey that due to his history.
