Retired Heroes - Ch. 13 - A Young Girl's Resolve

[Kireato]

@criver

See that's the thing, I understand that you have expectations, and I don't mind criticism but you started "criticizing" for things that hadn't happened yet!

You expected Chris to be a complete Mary Sue, and expected him to start kicking ass with the sword from the previous chapter, but all he has done is set up a barrier. Moreover, he has shown to have numerous flaws, has admitted that he's not the greatest tactician and in this chapter he hasn't miraculously figured out that something was wrong from the girl's behaviour and done anything special about it.

Now you're once again making silly predictions about the next chapter that will have a deus ex machina development...

Dude, I can already guess what will happen, because I've been reading the manga carefully. Lina is wearing the pendant that Saliy made for Tifa so if she gets in danger, Saliy will rush towards her (or teleport) and then be able to also rescue Tifa, while being extremely angry about what happened. I'm not sure how exactly it will happen, but I know that none of this requires any deus ex machina development. Nothing is unfolding unrealistically here. The characters are behaving accordingly with what we know of them and we've been learning more about them as the story has progressed.

You're also making silly claims about there being no suspense, but that's incorrect. There's plenty of suspense if you read the story as it goes instead of focusing on what will happen (and being utterly wrong about it to boot). If you keep reading like that, you'll never find suspense in anything because there will always need to be some level of suspension of disbelief on your part in order to enjoy ANY story.

If you want to criticize, that's fine, but how about you actually criticize what we've all read instead of "I am almost certain a deus ex machina development will take place in the following chapters to save the girls (hopefully I am wrong). Some new hidden power will be revealed, or courage will prevail in the face of impossible odds or some bs like that. " which isn't actually criticism because none of that has happened so it's not part of the story.

I personally find very little to criticize about Retired Heroes so if you are actually going to bother to list your criticisms and for those criticisms to be about the current content instead of straight out of your imagination, then I'd be interested to read it. You've mentioned that you suspension of disbelief had been pushed too much, I'm curious to know what has pushed it too much because you certainly don't provide anything concrete.

 

[criver]

@Kireato

Sure, people expect some things to happen and the critique is related to this. But the expectations of what's about to come is based on what we've already seen. So it's really a critique of things leading up to this. You mentioned that even you expect a similar outcome, so I believe that we actually agree on that point. The point of criticism is the fact that there will most likely be no (severe enough) consequences for stupid actions, because somebody will save the day in order for the plot armor status quo to be preserved. You can see how that can lead to lack of suspense where you would expect it. I would be very pleasantly surprised if I am wrong about this, and obviously I would retract my statements in that case.

Let me also clarify what I meant by the fact that sometimes this pushes suspension of disbelief too far. You are naturally required to accept basic building elements of the premise such as magic, demons, superhuman abilities etc, and I am fine with that. However there needs to be a method to the madness, that's what differentiates gibberish from a consistent story. You can't ignore plot holes, behavior resulting from poor psychological motivation, unrealistic development, lack of causality, fodder characters, and plot armor by just requiring suspension of disbelief on the part of the reader. When the logical consistency of your story comes into question in its very own premise suspension of disbelief does not help.

As far as my Mary Sue comment is concerned, you are simply putting words in my mouth. I never said what I expected Chris to do or that he is 'a complete Mary Sue', so you argument is a strawman. Let me quote myself just in case:

If you consider this last chapter you can see very well most of the MCs going into Mary Sue territory.

The previous chapter was practically a filler meant to show off how amazing all our MCs are, and obviously all other interactions were geared towards that purpose. Go reread it and tell me it is not so.
Additionally a character being a Mary Sue doesn't imply a lack of flaws whatsoever. If anything the negative connotation has more to do with the fact that it's a poorly developed character that is distinguished mostly by how 'great' he is. Note that my comment does not only apply to Chris.

Let's have some fun and make a bet. I bet that an ability we didn't know about would be introduced in the next chapter to save the day, or an unrealistic development will occur (something you cannot predict based on what we have seen, like a new element being introduced to the story just for that purpose). Since you believe that the author will not compromise storytelling in order to avoid tragedy, you can bet on the opposite.

 

[GreenDragon]

I think Chris should kick that mayor's ass and let him fend for himself after badmouthing Sally behind their back.

 

[Redice]

Complaints here sound like me when I'm making up reasons why I don't read/watch the oh so popular Boku no Hero just because it's ultra shounen. It's making me cringe.
Just go look at the raws.

 

[Dantrig]

@criver

I don't see any Mary Sues. These are the heroes that defeated the demon king. They gained these skills on an extremely difficult journey through the demon world, they don't reset to level 1 just because they retired to a village. None of them are skilled in everything, they make it seem like it is easy because they cover for each others weaknesses.

What kind of realistic consequences do you want to see happen to the kids? Do you want the Berserk route where they get eaten and all thats left is a hollow ribcage and just enough of their face to identify them because normal 10yr olds can't outrun beasts? Or maybe they should lose use of a leg somehow so they can never leave parental oversight again? The tone of the story just doesn't match that. At most I can see them being confined to their homes for awhile or until they complete some training to protect themselves. The training of course would be done by Saliy and much worse than facing a pack of ravening demon beasts.

 

[Untramen]

I mean we already know Saliy is going to teleport and save them in the nick of time but it's not gonna change the fact I'm on the edge of my seat wondering how she'll juggle the plan and the girls. Her having a personal stake and having to decide between her daughter and the safety of the village and inevitably trying to have both is what I'm here for right now ?

 

[twinklecake]

Pseudo-villainous ojou-samas are the best.

 

[Coriasis]

Yeah, my money's also on the pendant, I don't think they're going to introduce a new ability out of the blue. The pendant thing was set up several chapters back, so it's not a deus ex machina.

Whether someone is a Mary Sue or not is a highly subjective opinion, more so than most other tropes. Of the adult MCs, Chris seems the closest to me with Saliy actually being quite far away, their being a couple has a sort of canceling out effect. Tanya and Shok haven't been as much besides being somewhat air-headed, jury's out until they get the limelight.

 

[Kireato]

@criver

I'm just going to make the comments I feel I should make.

I think it's silly to claim that realism means that stupid actions should lead to severe consequences. Reality does not care to provide fair consequences; it will reward the wicked and punish the virtuous at its whims. In the case of heroes, they're protected by fate. That's what makes their stories so fascinating, how they can beat the odds and save the day. So I just don't believe that plot armor always detracts from a story.

Declaring your expectations without indicating the elements of the story on which you are building those expectations and then basing your critique off of that makes it difficult to take your critique seriously. Stop trying to justify your baseless assertions.

You wouldn't have to make statements that you may need to retract if you were properly considering what is already present. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with speculation, but critiquing the story based on your speculation is really just selling the bear's skin before you've slain it.

"However there needs to be a method to the madness, that's what differentiates gibberish from a consistent story. You can't ignore plot holes, behavior resulting from poor psychological motivation, unrealistic development, lack of causality, fodder characters, and plot armor by just requiring suspension of disbelief on the part of the reader. When the logical consistency of your story comes into question in its very own premise suspension of disbelief does not help."

I don't disagree with any of this, however I'm not sure how it relates to this story since you haven't provided any substantial elements from the story that would explain WHY you are unable to suspend your disbelief and I myself am not seeing any issues with the story as it is.

"As far as my Mary Sue comment is concerned, you are simply putting words in my mouth. I never said what I expected Chris to do or that he is 'a complete Mary Sue', so you argument is a strawman."

Indeed, you never said anything, so people were confused about WHAT you meant. When asked to clarify because others didn't understand what you meant and wondered if you knew what it meant you kept dodging the issue, saying you knew what it meant and never clarifying exactly what it was that you meant. This lead to an incredibly pointless back and forth.

You cannot fault me for putting words into your mouth because I do need to start somewhere if I ever want to start figuring out what you mean as you never clarify nor provide any substance to your claims by actually pointing at the story's elements that make you say what you did.

"The previous chapter was practically a filler meant to show off how amazing all our MCs are, and obviously all other interactions were geared towards that purpose. Go reread it and tell me it is not so."

Again, you're expecting me to see what you do when we clearly hold differing opinions. We may be reading the same story but our experience is completely different so why exactly are you expecting me to agree with you on this point without providing concrete examples that would at least make me understand your point of view even if I don't agree with it?

"Additionally a character being a Mary Sue doesn't imply a lack of flaws whatsoever. If anything the negative connotation has more to do with the fact that it's a poorly developed character that is distinguished mostly by how 'great' he is. "

So you're saying that the main characters in Retired Heroes are poorly developed and only distinguished by how great they are? I simply don't agree.

"Let's have some fun and make a bet. I bet that an ability we didn't know about would be introduced in the next chapter to save the day, or an unrealistic development will occur (something you cannot predict based on what we have seen, like a new element being introduced to the story just for that purpose). Since you believe that the author will not compromise storytelling in order to avoid tragedy, you can bet on the opposite."

Look, the author is clearly revealing his cards and enriching the story as it goes. For instance, at the start of the story, we suspected Chris to be the late king and later on, when we discovered that Saliy was a demon all along we finally got to understand why he may have pretended to have died. Similarly, a development occurred in this chapter which we couldn't expect; Lina and Tifa are outside of the barrier in order to save a cat. However, I do not think these were unrealistic developments. Even now, we still don't know everything about these characters so if the story led us to discover these things I would simply find it interesting.

I do not believe anything about the author not compromising storytelling to avoid tragedy. I WANT the author to avoid tragedy. I think the way the author has told his story currently is fantastic and I have enjoyed it greatly. Like I have said, from what I expect I believe that there are already elements set in place in order to save Tifa and Lina without adding anything else but I wouldn't mind being surprised.

I mean right now we're not even agreeing on what constitutes a compromise in storytelling and how you feel that the current story has compromises, while I don't. I mean, let's take Sherlock Holmes for example. I don't think anyone disagrees that the Sherlock Holmes stories are full of suspense as we wonder who did it and yet those stories will keep you in the dark and introduce new elements as it progresses - Sherlock Holmes' knowledge that he only starts sharing when he starts exposing his deduction. Trickery is part of storytelling.

We can bet on that if you want, but I'm just not as interested in the result as you are. I would rather you explain how the author has told their story poorly previously instead of your silly focus on what the next chapter might bring. What is it even going to prove?

Honestly, if you don't want to put the effort into actually substantiating your arguments then I don't think there will be anything more to talk about. I mean, this entire post is just me repeating this in different ways since you didn't seem to get it from the previous one. I'll obviously stop replying to you if you still don't get this.

 

[kuyukotto]

Are those series at the last page being translated too?

 

[Coriasis]

@kuyukotto Not by us, I have no clue what those are.

 

[Xenoe]

@kuyukotto Going from left to right, its Retired Heroes, Magic Marriage, Star School, and Dragon Metropolis.

Of the other three, to my knowledge only the second one is being translated, https://mangadex.org/title/22949/magic-marriage

 

[welcome2atlantis]

Of all the stupid things. Why did they get out of the barrier.

 

[WingZeroHeeroYuy]

I wonder what's Tifa's demon form would look like? Will she have one horn like her mother? Or will she have two?

 

[lurker123]

There is the risk of Tifa being heoric and getting ojou-whoever to split up and have a demon chase tifa instead when they inevitably get attacked. but then Tifas pendant ojou has could result in occupying Saliy long enough for something to happen to Tifa. Things arent straightforward as they may seem. There are still options established

 

[criver]

@Kireato

I think it's silly to claim that realism means that stupid actions should lead to severe consequences.

Because stupid actions don't lead to tragic outcomes, right? /s
But here's the kicker - you go on to discuss virtues and fairness, which only further substantiates my point. Taking stupid decisions leads to detrimental outcomes. It's not about fairness, it's about causality.
Additionally, plot armor specifically implies bending the rules of the game for a specific character, so it's amazing how you can argue that this doesn't take away from the story. You are literally trading realistic outcomes for your character's well-being by equipping him with a plot armor. Go read the definition.

makes it difficult to take your critique seriously.

The fact that you can't take it seriously doesn't mean that this manga is beyond critique.

You wouldn't have to make statements that you may need to retract if you were properly considering what is already present.

That's probably the stupidest statement in your entire reply. You're basically implying that people should never be wrong.

Indeed, you never said anything, so people were confused about WHAT you meant. When asked to clarify because others didn't understand what you meant and wondered if you knew what it meant you kept dodging the issue, saying you knew what it meant and never clarifying exactly what it was that you meant.

I said exactly what I meant and I still stand by what I said. There's nothing to clarify, a more than ample description of what a Mary Sue is, is available on wikipedia. All that the 'confused people' needed to do was look it up. Just because you don't understand a word doesn't mean that I should teach it to you. I've already been over this argument on mangadex, if you don't know the definitions of words, that is on you, not on me.

You cannot fault me for putting words into your mouth ...

You are at fault for putting words in my mouth, your excuses do not matter. I said exactly what I meant, you quoted something I did not say. This is called strawmanning.

We may be reading the same story but our experience is completely different so why exactly are you expecting me to agree with you on this point without providing concrete examples that would at least make me understand your point of view even if I don't agree with it?

If you can't even make an analysis of what happened in the last chapter (it's not that hard, nothing happened outside of what I said), then I don't think any amount of examples would change your mind. I might as well be trying to argue that 2 + 2 = 4 with you.

So you're saying that the main characters in Retired Heroes are poorly developed and only distinguished by how great they are? I simply don't agree.

It's impressive how you manage to modify what I say every single time, almost as if it were intentional (the alternative is not great either). How do you read mostly as only? Could you explain this?
And yes, if you put in mostly rather than only, then I am saying that they are to some degree.

Lina and Tifa are outside of the barrier in order to save a cat. However, I do not think these were unrealistic developments.

And I agree, these are not unrealistic developments. But there are unrealistic developments on numerous occasions throughout the story.

I do not believe anything about the author not compromising storytelling to avoid tragedy.

Do you not? Then what are you arguing? You said that plot armor doesn't detract from the story in the beginning and now you are arguing how you do not believe anything about the author not compromising storytelling to avoid tragedy. I'll spell it out for you - avoiding tragedy through plot armor is compromising storytelling.

Trickery is part of storytelling.

Good thing this is a detective novel, right?

What is it even going to prove?

That plot armor trumps all logic in this manga.

if you don't want to put the effort into actually substantiating your arguments then I don't think there will be anything more to talk about.

I don't think this is the place or the time, or that my effort will be well spent making a dissection of this manga page by page. Just for you to quote something I didn't say after that and argue that you could not be faulted for that. Or misinterpret basic definitions. Or contradict yourself in the same comment. I simply don't want to argue with you, since I don't think it will lead to anything productive.

 

[kuyukotto]

@Xenoe thanks!

 

[Kireato]

@criver

Look, I'm not intentionally modifying what you're saying and I don't know why you think I would. I'm pretty sure everyone else is skipping our comments since they're so long; there's no one to impress here, I'm just having a conversation with you, and you know exactly what you have said, so who exactly am I fooling?

Meanwhile, you're as careless as me with your own responses:

The fact that you can't take it seriously doesn't mean that this manga is beyond critique.

Right, but I said that your critique was worthless, not that this manga was beyond critique.

That's probably the stupidest statement in your entire reply. You're basically implying that people should never be wrong.

No, I was saying that the way you were making statements you were setting yourself up to be wrong. So I meant that you should avoid doing that.

I don't think this is the place or the time, or that my effort will be well spent making a dissection of this manga page by page.

I did not ask to dissect the manga page by page, I asked to substantiate your argument. For instance, you wanted to make a bet on an unreleased chapter to claim that

That plot armor trumps all logic in this manga.

when you could just provide one or a few examples of such plot armour or unrealistic events from the currently released chapters. How hard is that? It's apparently harder and more time consuming to provide an event from a manga you've read than to dissect my comment.

Just for you to quote something I didn't say after that and argue that you could not be faulted for that. Or misinterpret basic definitions. Or contradict yourself in the same comment.

Firstly, I did not quote you; I interpreted what you had said, which in my defence, was extremely vague. So my interpretation was naturally flawed and that's why I said I could not be faulted. The statement was MEANT to invite correction.
Secondly, you can not call tropes basic definitions. I've skimmed through the plot armour trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor . That is ANYTHING BUT basic.
And thirdly, I didn't contradict myself. In any case, you certainly failed to point it out, but that wouldn't be the first time you haven't substantiated your assertions...

But let's move on to how you stand by what you say and indicate that there's nothing to clarify. Anyone reading you will be confused, and it's because you are vague and do not commit to actually saying anything. I mean take the following:

And yes, if you put in mostly rather than only, then I am saying that they are to some degree.

How is anyone supposed to get a clear picture of what you mean from this?

You say that the burden is on others to look up the definition of certain expressions but have you even read the wikipedia article? You've said that a Mary Sue character is

a poorly developed character that is distinguished mostly by how 'great' he is.

but this is very different from the very first line of the wikipedia article:

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.

The wikipedia article even goes on to talk about the origins and development of the meaning. When you use an expression that has taken various meanings over time, you are NOT clear. There was a good reason for which several people disagreed with you concerning your Mary Sue statement and you stubbornly refuse to see it.

There's plenty of my points that you completely missed but I'll just focus on the one I actually care about most:

It's not about fairness, it's about causality.

What I meant was that reality was unpredictable and that you couldn't reduce it to simple links of causality that should always be true. And so I meant that a character could make poor decisions and yet could avoid tragic consequences; the reason being that other events would have mitigated their poor decisions. It can be said that one has good fate in these conditions.

Additionally, plot armor specifically implies bending the rules of the game for a specific character, so it's amazing how you can argue that this doesn't take away from the story. You are literally trading realistic outcomes for your character's well-being by equipping him with a plot armor. Go read the definition.

I actually understood plot armour differently. I thought it meant that a character would stay safe, and I didn't believe there was any implication made concerning the method of safety. For instance, we all believe that Tifa will remain safe from harm but I certainly hope that the author will give a satisfying explanation of how Tifa remains safe from harm, one that doesn't bend the rules set by the story. I hope you can make sense of what I said with that in mind. My apologies for misinterpreting this; honestly, that's what I figured it meant and there was no malice intended.

On that note, chapter 14 has been released, so tell me, who won the bet you wanted to make? If you did, please be kind enough to provide the rule bending or unrealistic event that occurred. I read it and it seemed ok to me. If there was nothing unrealistic this chapter, then please provide at least one unrealistic event from a previous chapter because after all you do claim that

But there are unrealistic developments on numerous occasions throughout the story.

so you could substantiate it. I'm really hoping you could drop the excuses (which by the way, I find quite derogatory) and just provide some examples.

I simply don't want to argue with you, since I don't think it will lead to anything productive.

I'm miffed at your whole comment. I would have thought that it's fairly obvious that assertions should be backed and I was urging you to back up your assertions but you keep avoiding doing that. Instead you've concentrated on rudely arguing with me about the pettiest of things so I had to reply and clarify some things. But this really tops it. What part of commenting and arguing about manga could ever be productive? We do it because we enjoy the manga and are willing to spend time to talk about it.

When I say that there won't be anything to talk about if you don't provide some events from the manga that back your assertion about the unrealistic developments, it's because all I can conclude if you don't provide them is that you're full of it. So are you?

 

[criver]

@Kireato
Fair enough, you seem a lot more reasonable than the last guy I talked to on here. I'll continue my argument with you in private, to avoid breaking the forum rules regarding this.

 

[Harvester]

Does anybody know what the third series in the advertisement on the last page is?

Edit: Answered in the next chapter, zzz. Retired Heroes, Magic Marriage, Star School, and Dragon Metropolis.