Ryuu to Chameleon - Vol. 1 Ch. 5 - He's Different, Somehow

[MangaDex]

 

[St0rmFury]

Did not expect nipples.

 

[PrototypicalLurker]

Hopefully page 5 isn't a regular occurance.

 

[Doomroar]

And then... nipples!

That means we got 2 fan service girls now

 

[xyzzy]

In Shounen manga, large chests make the silhouettes for those characters much easier to read.

Yeah I’m not buying this.

Ishiyama-sensei was an assistant to Eiichiro Oda, so it’s fair to assume Hanagami was based on him.

In One Piece, for the main cast alone Luffy, Chopper, Franky, Brook, and Jimbei all have wildly different silhouettes that make them easily recognizable. But Nami and Robin have virtually identical silhouettes that make them look both just like… two girls with big boobs.

Hell, this is for many series as a whole. For male characters, you could have a variety of wild body shapes and types. In Hero Academia, Midoriya and Mineta and Koda and Shouji all look wildly different. But the girls all generally have a similar body type, so adding big boobs wouldn’t change a thing.

If you like adding boobs to your series because you like drawing them, then sure. All the more power to you. But don’t try to twist it as something that makes artistic sense to do.

 

[Teasday]

Hopefully page 5 isn't a regular occurance.

Not at all, lol. It felt more disturbing than fanservice-y to me anyway.

If you like adding boobs to your series because you like drawing them, then sure. All the more power to you. But don’t try to twist it as something that makes artistic sense to do.

I think you might be reading into it a bit much, I thought that was just Garyou being Garyou.

 

[zawarudo]

I refuse to believe that girl isn't meant as a homage to at least one of Go Nagai's female characters.

 

[yumyum36]

The author seems really worried people will stop reading if there isn't fanservice lol.

Otherwise, in the author's head:
"How do women think?"
"Oh of course, they must be constantly worried their boobs are big enough so the men they respect will look at them."

 

[tigerstar186]

Yeah I’m not buying this.

Ishiyama-sensei was an assistant to Eiichiro Oda, so it’s fair to assume Hanagami was based on him.

In One Piece, for the main cast alone Luffy, Chopper, Franky, Brook, and Jimbei all have wildly different silhouettes that make them easily recognizable. But Nami and Robin have virtually identical silhouettes that make them look both just like… two girls with big boobs.

Hell, this is for many series as a whole. For male characters, you could have a variety of wild body shapes and types. In Hero Academia, Midoriya and Mineta and Koda and Shouji all look wildly different. But the girls all generally have a similar body type, so adding big boobs wouldn’t change a thing.

If you like adding boobs to your series because you like drawing them, then sure. All the more power to you. But don’t try to twist it as something that makes artistic sense to do.

Rather than being based on Oda... Surely he's based on Toriyama? The manga is called "Dragon Land" and the one panel we've seen of it is a direct parody of Goku riding on Shenron from Dragon Ball's cover, and the cover of the volumes she holds also have the same layout as Dragon Ball's rather than One Piece's. They also explicitly call it out as his second work, and Toriyama published Dr. Slump before Dragon Ball, while One Piece was Oda's first serialized work. The name might even be a parody of Toriyama's considering they have the same syllable count. Even the "all his characters have big breasts" claim applies to Dragon Ball just as well as One Piece.

I don't know, I just don't see any real parallels between Hanagami and Oda outside of the breast thing. Seems like a stretch to assume he's based on him just because the mangaka was his assistant.

 

[Huichelaar]

I think you might be reading into it a bit much, I thought that was just Garyou being Garyou.

See, that's what I thought when I read that scene in chapter 2. You've got these dudes ridiculing this artists' work by shitting over one panel she drew and then Garyou steps in and changes the subject to help his fellow artist and avoid her getting distraught.

But then, when reading it again, the scene kinda paints a picture of those who'd make fun of fanservice that ultimately aims to titilate the reader by reducing women to sexual objects (because that's ultimately what that panel was). Now this is just one scene in only the second chapter of this serialization, so I was willing to pass it off as me reading into things too much.

Then this chapter appears, and whoo boy. We got:

• A full naked shot of a traditionally beautiful body of a young woman on page 5, the excuse given being: "Well she was seen through by our sharp antagonist!"
• Several panels continuing a recurring joke of a woman being worried about the size of her breasts in trying to woo the person she admires. The very first impression she got of a colleague had to be about the size of her bosom.
• Some weak excuse justifying why there's one preferred body type for female characters in shounen manga, not acknowledging the variety of body types available to male characters.

All in one chapter!

Some of these 'incidents' don't even involve Garyou, and even if they did, as long as not one character pushes back against this, I can't just consider this as Garyou being Garyou. There's a certain viewpoint the author is trying to share with us here.

 

[Teasday]

Some of these 'incidents' don't even involve Garyou, and even if they did, as long as not one character pushes back against this, I can't just consider this as Garyou being Garyou. There's a certain viewpoint the author is trying to share with us here.

I mean, if it is a viewpoint he's slyly trying to push here, for some reason he both leans into it and away from it during the course of the work, unlike Garyou who's being implied to be just thinking about silhouettemaxxing the designs in his manga. Also, your second and third bullet points are describing the exact thing in question here, with the breast envy being the direct setup for Garyou's comments, so I'm not completely sure what point you're really trying to imply here.

Are there characters and scenes meant to titillate the reader to some extent in the manga? Sure, I don't think anyone denied that, but we're talking about a joke involving Garyou being so mangabrained that he designs "all his female characters with huge breasts" just to make their silhouettes easier to recognize. Given how he's characterized, especially later on in the series, that seems like exactly the kind of thing he'd genuinely think and do. I don't know what's there to push back on.

And again, if you're going to read into it and think that's the author trying to play defense for his manga — as opposed to, say, some other mangakas he's talked to and might have heard that justification from (cough Oda? who knows) — it seems odd he doesn't actually then capitalize on it.

 

[Huichelaar]

I mean, if it is a viewpoint he's slyly trying to push here, for some reason he both leans into it and away from it during the course of the work, unlike Garyou who's being implied to be just thinking about silhouettemaxxing the designs in his manga. Also, your second and third bullet points are describing the exact thing in question here, with the breast envy being the direct setup for Garyou's comments, so I'm not completely sure what point you're really trying to imply here.

Are there characters and scenes meant to titillate the reader to some extent in the manga? Sure, I don't think anyone denied that, but we're talking about a joke involving Garyou being so mangabrained that he designs "all his female characters with huge breasts" just to make their silhouettes easier to recognize. Given how he's characterized, especially later on in the series, that seems like exactly the kind of thing he'd genuinely think and do. I don't know what's there to push back on.

And again, if you're going to read into it and think that's the author trying to play defense for his manga — as opposed to, say, some other mangakas he's talked to and might have heard that justification from (cough Oda? who knows) — it seems odd he doesn't actually then capitalize on it.

I'm not sure about what you're trying to say here, but all I'm trying to point out is that the author makes generous use of the principle that sex sells (specifically if it's female bodies being on display), whilst making weak excuses to justify it.

It's not just any one character being shown to be an ass about it; It's the main character. Garyou is the one character that inspires others, who can do no wrong (even though an mc is usually allowed to make mistakes). Beyond that, there're examples that don't involve him either.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's ultimately disappointing that here we have another work which unabashedly leans into sexist tropes as a means to sell copies. I was willing to pass it off as bad luck the first time, but this chapter makes it that much more clear.

 

[Teasday]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's ultimately disappointing that here we have another work which unabashedly leans into sexist tropes as a means to sell copies. I was willing to pass it off as bad luck the first time, but this chapter makes it that much more clear.

Right, in my mind we were talking about whether Garyou's comment was evidence of the character himself being actually sexist.

If it's about the manga using any kind of sexist tropes, fair enough to see it that way. Not sure I'd make that conclusion myself but I can see the argument.