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Sasuga Shizuko-sama
Sengoku Komachi Kuroutan: Noukou Giga - Vol. 5 Ch. 23 - March to The Capital
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@Morgan_spurlock Indeed. But 'Age of discovery' just begun, and the only Europeans out there are the Portuguese and the Spanish around the Indian Ocean. But using modern concepts and technologies, she'll crush them in no time eventually conquering the world. Since the Americas is also empty, I wonder if she has the 'New World' in mind.
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Nippon Stronk
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This is nonsense, lol. Everyone has known since ancient times that "an army marches on its stomach" (i.e. every war is won through a combination of logistics and tactics, with tactics being impossible without logistics). I'm sure they would be quite familiar with the concept of logistics in the Sengoku era. Why would they overlook the very basic idea of having more food for their wars?
Pfft! I guess this is just wish-fulfillment stuff so I'll try to turn my brain off more.
Thanks for the chapter. Great translation as always.
Pfft! I guess this is just wish-fulfillment stuff so I'll try to turn my brain off more.
Thanks for the chapter. Great translation as always.
@reika while logistics stretches back to the earliest history of warfare (ancient Egypt fortifying all the wells and oases in the desert so invading armies would die of thirst, the Persians getting an unusually large army to Greece by marching on the coast where they could be supplied by a fleet of ships) practically speaking most period armies lacked supply trains and lived off the land (ie stealing shit from the peasants). A permanent dedicated supply service is rare in historical armies; Napoleon's adventure in Russia is a late example of an early industrial era army being unable to meet its most basic supply needs by transport.
In any army that drew from the peasantry there was also the issue of 'campaign season' due to part-time soldiers needing to tend to their farms at sowing and harvest seasons. Between this and the preference not to fight in extreme climate limited campaign duration was common.
In any army that drew from the peasantry there was also the issue of 'campaign season' due to part-time soldiers needing to tend to their farms at sowing and harvest seasons. Between this and the preference not to fight in extreme climate limited campaign duration was common.
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@pburgund is right, @reika, @criver. Military logistics right up until the Early Modern Period were pretty basic. The concept of a continuous supply train bringing additional supplies and reinforcements to the front line was basically non-existent. This is because the concept of logistics up until that point was basically comprised of two schools of thought: either you loot/forage what you need in situ or you carried it with yourself. The concept of centralised logistics was even rarer, especially in the Middle Ages in Europe, because of feudal systems in which each feudal lord was meant to supply only their core forces themselves, while their levies typically had to equip and supply themselves.
Indeed, one of the reasons for which speed was critical to armies up until the development of modern logistics was because your supplies had a time limit. If you couldn't get things done quickly, you risked having your campaign supplies run out and foraging can only alleviate that burden by so much. This is actually reflected in Shizuku's explanation regarding a hypothetical siege of Odawara Castle: if the castle doesn't fall in time before the supplies run out, the siege is considered to have failed. The same applied to medieval campaigns in Europe and Asia -- the moment your supplies ran out, your campaign was over and you had to fall back to a stronghold or another to wait for either local supplies to build up for another campaign, or more expensively and rarely, for supplies from home to arrive.
Thus, if the Oda army used modern logistics to upend the norms of Sengoku-era warfare, they could essentially be an army that doesn't have to concern itself with time. Where other armies would be bound by the time limit of their carried and local supplies, the Oda could theoretically continue campaigning well after their enemies' and local supplies dried up by simply arranging for a permanent supply train that runs from Owari to the front lines -- sort of like a medieval Red Ball Express.
Remember the Siege of Inabayama Castle from a few chapters back? Historically, that entire siege lasted 14 days. The whole massacre at Mt Hiei lasted a single day. Azuchi Castle fell within days. In short, the Sengoku Era sieges were typically short and, where successful, typically involved massed attacks or subterfuge (siege weapons were rare). Sieges like Leningrad, for instance, or Stalingrad or Candia, which lasted years, were unheard of. Only the Ishiyama Hongan-ji temple at Nagashima lasted under siege for longer than a few months (3-4 years under non-continuous siege and another 6-7 pacifying the area).
Indeed, one of the reasons for which speed was critical to armies up until the development of modern logistics was because your supplies had a time limit. If you couldn't get things done quickly, you risked having your campaign supplies run out and foraging can only alleviate that burden by so much. This is actually reflected in Shizuku's explanation regarding a hypothetical siege of Odawara Castle: if the castle doesn't fall in time before the supplies run out, the siege is considered to have failed. The same applied to medieval campaigns in Europe and Asia -- the moment your supplies ran out, your campaign was over and you had to fall back to a stronghold or another to wait for either local supplies to build up for another campaign, or more expensively and rarely, for supplies from home to arrive.
Thus, if the Oda army used modern logistics to upend the norms of Sengoku-era warfare, they could essentially be an army that doesn't have to concern itself with time. Where other armies would be bound by the time limit of their carried and local supplies, the Oda could theoretically continue campaigning well after their enemies' and local supplies dried up by simply arranging for a permanent supply train that runs from Owari to the front lines -- sort of like a medieval Red Ball Express.
Remember the Siege of Inabayama Castle from a few chapters back? Historically, that entire siege lasted 14 days. The whole massacre at Mt Hiei lasted a single day. Azuchi Castle fell within days. In short, the Sengoku Era sieges were typically short and, where successful, typically involved massed attacks or subterfuge (siege weapons were rare). Sieges like Leningrad, for instance, or Stalingrad or Candia, which lasted years, were unheard of. Only the Ishiyama Hongan-ji temple at Nagashima lasted under siege for longer than a few months (3-4 years under non-continuous siege and another 6-7 pacifying the area).
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@MarquisBlack I understand. However, this chapter still makes no sense since the idea of supply trains itself is hardly revolutionary. The reason why they didn't do that is because of the lack of enough labor, supplies (not just food, they would also need enough carts, barrels, jars, etc.), and proper roads (i.e. the basic elements of logistics). In particular, Japan has mountainous terrain which would make supply difficult.
It ain't cuz "whoa wtf we never ever thought of that, OMG, she's a genius" which is what this chapter is about.
It ain't cuz "whoa wtf we never ever thought of that, OMG, she's a genius" which is what this chapter is about.
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@reika,
That's just it -- I'm proposing that it is revolutionary to them. To be very clear: supply trains continuously running from one's home domain to the front lines was not a thing in the Sengoku era -- at the very least, not when taking into consideration how military logistics work since the 20th century. Each domain the Oda (and others) conquered was conquered specifically for two reasons: expansion of their domain for the purpose of acquiring power and prestige, and establishing new supply bases near the front lines from which to launch invasions fully supplied. Thus, for Shizuku to come out and say, "why don't we set up a system of supply trains that can indefinitely resupply our front lines during campaign season from our home base, where it's safe?" would be groundbreaking for feudal Japanese commanders who thought of supply chain logistics as "we carry what we can and forage what we must." Think about it: rather than have an army's entire supply for the front line come from near the battlefields, where enemies could raid and forage and you might need to abandon at a moment's notice, you get your supplies from a safe location where farmers and craftsmen can mass produce in relative safety.
EDIT: I would also add that this also removes infrastructural concerns for attacking armies beyond the need to keep roadways open and well-maintained. If you don't have to worry about keeping a domain intact as you conquer it for fear of losing out supplies, that opens up a lot of options for conquest and immunises you to a certain extent from scorched earth policies.
She's basically modernising warfare in a way no one in the Sengoku era could've come up with because that kind of leap of thought would've been beyond their current understanding of warfare. Preceding chapters already clearly showed that aside from Nobunaga (who quickly grasped the possibilities once Shizuku showed him her abilities), other samurai saw agriculture as merely "growing just enough food for campaigns and survival." They couldn't even grasp the notion of a technology campus until it was basically laid out to them. Nobunaga and other major samurai figures have even expressed a lack of knowledge about Sun Tzu's Art of War, which today we would consider basic reading for military figures. From what we could see when she first practised basic arithmetic, their understanding of math is also vastly different from modern standards. It's not because they're dumb, though, but because their upbringing and dominant social norms, as well as lack of comprehensive modern education, forced them to grow with a skewed view about warfare and socioeconomic progress. Add to that geographic features, which you correctly point out, that would make thoughts about "nationwide supply trains" seem ludicrous, and that would lead their ancestors to dismiss the thought entirely, making their current understanding of logistics dogmatic.
Thus, it's easy for us to say, "oh, that's obvious. Clearly, they would know," but in reality, no, they wouldn't. They're too constrained by traditional dogma about logistics to even make that leap. That's what made Nobunaga so remarkable (and such a good overlord for Shizuku): he hates abiding by tradition for tradition's sake and, in this manga, is shown to be quick in grasping and applying the concepts she teaches him -- even when they're expressly not of military nature (for example, the whole stress thing). Thus, even though he could've just had Shizuku tell him, and only him, about logistics and other matters, he often seems to be using her as a vehicle through which to shatter traditional preconceptions about warfare and socioeconomic progress among his commanders.
At least, that's what I believe is happening. I might be wrong in subsequent chapters.
That's just it -- I'm proposing that it is revolutionary to them. To be very clear: supply trains continuously running from one's home domain to the front lines was not a thing in the Sengoku era -- at the very least, not when taking into consideration how military logistics work since the 20th century. Each domain the Oda (and others) conquered was conquered specifically for two reasons: expansion of their domain for the purpose of acquiring power and prestige, and establishing new supply bases near the front lines from which to launch invasions fully supplied. Thus, for Shizuku to come out and say, "why don't we set up a system of supply trains that can indefinitely resupply our front lines during campaign season from our home base, where it's safe?" would be groundbreaking for feudal Japanese commanders who thought of supply chain logistics as "we carry what we can and forage what we must." Think about it: rather than have an army's entire supply for the front line come from near the battlefields, where enemies could raid and forage and you might need to abandon at a moment's notice, you get your supplies from a safe location where farmers and craftsmen can mass produce in relative safety.
EDIT: I would also add that this also removes infrastructural concerns for attacking armies beyond the need to keep roadways open and well-maintained. If you don't have to worry about keeping a domain intact as you conquer it for fear of losing out supplies, that opens up a lot of options for conquest and immunises you to a certain extent from scorched earth policies.
She's basically modernising warfare in a way no one in the Sengoku era could've come up with because that kind of leap of thought would've been beyond their current understanding of warfare. Preceding chapters already clearly showed that aside from Nobunaga (who quickly grasped the possibilities once Shizuku showed him her abilities), other samurai saw agriculture as merely "growing just enough food for campaigns and survival." They couldn't even grasp the notion of a technology campus until it was basically laid out to them. Nobunaga and other major samurai figures have even expressed a lack of knowledge about Sun Tzu's Art of War, which today we would consider basic reading for military figures. From what we could see when she first practised basic arithmetic, their understanding of math is also vastly different from modern standards. It's not because they're dumb, though, but because their upbringing and dominant social norms, as well as lack of comprehensive modern education, forced them to grow with a skewed view about warfare and socioeconomic progress. Add to that geographic features, which you correctly point out, that would make thoughts about "nationwide supply trains" seem ludicrous, and that would lead their ancestors to dismiss the thought entirely, making their current understanding of logistics dogmatic.
Thus, it's easy for us to say, "oh, that's obvious. Clearly, they would know," but in reality, no, they wouldn't. They're too constrained by traditional dogma about logistics to even make that leap. That's what made Nobunaga so remarkable (and such a good overlord for Shizuku): he hates abiding by tradition for tradition's sake and, in this manga, is shown to be quick in grasping and applying the concepts she teaches him -- even when they're expressly not of military nature (for example, the whole stress thing). Thus, even though he could've just had Shizuku tell him, and only him, about logistics and other matters, he often seems to be using her as a vehicle through which to shatter traditional preconceptions about warfare and socioeconomic progress among his commanders.
At least, that's what I believe is happening. I might be wrong in subsequent chapters.
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@reika well to be fair they really won't be able to think about it if they do not have the resource from the start maybe some sort if Idealize plan at best because even if a general suggest her type of logistic they wouldn't even be able to do it with out her previous ideas. and considering history yeah this type of logistics did not happen in this era of Japan so chances are nobody thought of it or at least nobody thought it was possible to begin with.
plus the whole chapter didn't really show she was a genius only the officials thought of it, for Shizuku she had no idea that she made proper logistics possible in this era. anybody with her background will be considered a genius if you went back in time.
plus the whole chapter didn't really show she was a genius only the officials thought of it, for Shizuku she had no idea that she made proper logistics possible in this era. anybody with her background will be considered a genius if you went back in time.
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well shit
@MarquisBlack
MC is a genius, everybody else is stupid.
The MC is not a Mary Sue and this is not a blatant wish-fulfillment manga. /s
MC is a genius, everybody else is stupid.
The MC is not a Mary Sue and this is not a blatant wish-fulfillment manga. /s
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When is she going to introduce the concept of the assembly line? The goods she's introduced are already much higher quality than what was previously available. If she can introduce the assembly line concept then they'll be able to really mass produce goods. Even if they take a quality hit it'll still be better than what was available before.
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I'm not sure I agree, @criver, though I concede I can see where you're coming from.
The Mary Sue-ish quality of Shizuku basically being a sort of techno-commercial messiah would be rather problematic, I agree, were it not for the fact that a rational basis for all her knowledge was already established by Chapter 1. Specifically, I refer to the fact that not only is she a high school student in the modern era in a first world country (meaning her quality of education is probably high and comprehensive), but she's specifically a student at an agricultural school with close ties to relatives who are deep into agricultural sciences and she's a self-professed history otaku. Thus, her agricultural abilities and knowledge of agricultural and Japanese history and technology.
Bear in mind that even 6th-grade math and science would've blown the minds of Sengoku-era individuals.
Her weapons abilities? She has a military otaku sister and it's not beyond the scope of reason that she might've actually picked up a thing or two from said sister; she also has that weapons encyclopedia she picked up to help her design weapons. In a later chapter, it was even shown that she has a school app filled with offline information from which she's drawn "inspiration" for her suggestions to the Oda. Hell, in spite of Nouhime categorically telling her that she shouldn't feel bad about using other people's knowledge, Shizuku herself admits that none of what she's provided is her own invention, but rather knowledge she's accrued over time (presumably at school, at home, and, like many of us, Wikipedia browsing when there's nothing to do).
Thus, Shizuku doesn't really fit within the mould of genius (or Mary Sue, by extension) because, in the end, the source of her ability to effect change is that she's educated and, by modern standards, Nobunaga and the other commanders aren't. If I went back in time to even just 1980 with a smartphone full of information about the next 20 years, I'd be called a genius, too, for being able to "predict" market tendencies and the rise of major corporations. Or for predicting terror attacks and wars. Shizuku is merely doing the same.
Which leads me to conclude this pseudo-dissertation by suggesting that Shizuku is not a Mary Sue because the reason for her importance isn't perpetually or exaggeratedly contrived. Modern knowledge in the Sengoku era would be invaluable no matter who provided it or to what extent. Nor is she particularly unique -- remember, in recent chapters, it was established that there are at least two other time travellers in Sengoku Japan. The author is thus, so far, not going out of his way to make Shizuku's importance grow beyond the actual implications of what she knows and can do. Her knowledge of arithmetic is surprising to the Oda, but not groundbreaking. She's smart about agriculture, but she's not capable of creating a telephone or combustion engine (both of which would be much greater game changers and appealing to military commanders). There are, in the end, limits to what she can do.
Bear in mind that even 6th-grade math and science would've blown the minds of Sengoku-era individuals.
Her weapons abilities? She has a military otaku sister and it's not beyond the scope of reason that she might've actually picked up a thing or two from said sister; she also has that weapons encyclopedia she picked up to help her design weapons. In a later chapter, it was even shown that she has a school app filled with offline information from which she's drawn "inspiration" for her suggestions to the Oda. Hell, in spite of Nouhime categorically telling her that she shouldn't feel bad about using other people's knowledge, Shizuku herself admits that none of what she's provided is her own invention, but rather knowledge she's accrued over time (presumably at school, at home, and, like many of us, Wikipedia browsing when there's nothing to do).
Thus, Shizuku doesn't really fit within the mould of genius (or Mary Sue, by extension) because, in the end, the source of her ability to effect change is that she's educated and, by modern standards, Nobunaga and the other commanders aren't. If I went back in time to even just 1980 with a smartphone full of information about the next 20 years, I'd be called a genius, too, for being able to "predict" market tendencies and the rise of major corporations. Or for predicting terror attacks and wars. Shizuku is merely doing the same.
Which leads me to conclude this pseudo-dissertation by suggesting that Shizuku is not a Mary Sue because the reason for her importance isn't perpetually or exaggeratedly contrived. Modern knowledge in the Sengoku era would be invaluable no matter who provided it or to what extent. Nor is she particularly unique -- remember, in recent chapters, it was established that there are at least two other time travellers in Sengoku Japan. The author is thus, so far, not going out of his way to make Shizuku's importance grow beyond the actual implications of what she knows and can do. Her knowledge of arithmetic is surprising to the Oda, but not groundbreaking. She's smart about agriculture, but she's not capable of creating a telephone or combustion engine (both of which would be much greater game changers and appealing to military commanders). There are, in the end, limits to what she can do.
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