Sono Bisque Doll wa Koi o Suru - Ch. 106

Dex-chan lover
Joined
May 12, 2023
Messages
1,003
Maybe bitching at this point, but I think 17 pages for a monthly publication is bad productivity. Hot takes right? Come bite me
Hot take?? Not at all. This is not fucking berserk and even in Berserk Miura-sensei (god bless his soul) was aiming to release 40+ page chapters. And we are talking about the most influential manga of the last era. Monthly or 2 monthly release but with a fucking chunk to them.

I am sorry but 17 pages monthly is kind of a joke... Unless this author was working on multiple series which very few mangaka do or they are as ill as HoTD's mangaka was, I just don't understand this.

Even Horikoshi-Sensei with MHA he was releasing weekly (or biweekly) and he was very unwell, even now he is. So yeah not a hot take... You are spitting facts.
 
Double-page supporter
Joined
Jan 15, 2023
Messages
78
Gonna side with Endominus on this one.

I will have some credit given to Marin because I think she has helped out here and there for Gojo and Gojo does seem to thoroughly enjoy working and hanging out with her.
She single-handedly pulled him out of his funk, his self-imposed social exile. She's introduced him to a boatload of new friends and places and experiences... And she fell completely in love with him, which itself has, despite his typical manga MC obtuseness, has helped him indirectly bolster his own skills, his dedication to Hina and faith in his multifaceted talents, which were all on shaky ground when they met.
But it is toxic. All you need to know before me rambling on is that Gojo is progressive Chad, while Marin is a bubbly exploiter.

The more I ruminate on that, it makes sense.
The more you 'ruminate', AKA project your own prejudices and gender role attitudes, you mean.
Gojo is the most development character in the story. He starts off socially reclusive and boxing himself with his passion due to patriarchal and childhood trauma.
By 'most development' you mean 'most developed'..? Do you even know what 'patriarchal' means?
He goes the extra mile to finish the cosplay and ever since it is posted, his craftsmanship is shown unto the world. This is where the real payoff comes, not from Marin, but from JuJu wanting his services and a whole community recruiting him, making him more socially accepted. This also drastically improves his Hina doll skills and passionately create a cosplay that garnishes widespread attention. At this point, he is able to face his past and resolve it.
No, that was not the point where he 'faced his past and resolved it' and he would not even have met JuJu if it weren't for Marin's involvement. None of this exposure and acceptance/affirmation would have happened without Marin. At all.
Marin? Marin begs him to make the cosplays, falls for his unintentional but god tier rizz on the train, receives a job offer over something that is 90% Gojos effort (which she was going to confront at the festival), ghosts him, and then lays him off…
You conveniently ignore the fact that she has followers and shared his creations for her - to them.

She doesn't really need the job in question - she's already a pretty significant model for fashion magazines. She clearly wants Gojo to have the credit, there. If she was half the manipulative, exploiting monster you himcels have screeched about, she would be 100% 'oh cool, I get some benefits thanks to his hard work - mwahahah - later, sucker!' But no, she's mortified and doubting herself, her feelings, everything. She's a mess.
Who did most of the effort on the Haniel cosplay, including the direction? Gojo.
How much of the pay off went to Gojo? 0. It all went to Marin and she didn’t even reach out to talk to him or give gratitude after the photo circle.
Because he bailed and didn't really seek the attention in the first place... Not because Marin didn't want him to get credit, or pretended she made it. WTF is wrong with you guys? Do you despise females that much?
Yes, I agree, Marin has her reasons to break it off so Gojo can focus on Hina Dolls. But what did she do to equally return the favor? Worse, what did Gojo do to be ghosted?
So you don't want her to have him make costumes and you get mad at her for not wanting to have him make costumes. And yes, they did a lot of other stuff together that wasn't making costumes.
This last chapter isn’t heartbreaking because it is the end of the romance. It’s heartbreaking because One is putting in all the hard work and the other reciprocates with exploitation in the long run.
Huh? None of these things are true.
I don’t dislike Marin because the reason why it took me a while to realize this is because she is genuinely charismatic too. But damn guilt tripping yourself and ghosting is not the answer to all those outfits he made.
You're making up things that didn't really happen, filling in story blanks with your own angry projection, attributing malicious or apathetic sentiment to the most emotionally exposed character in this story... Ugh. It's like watching someone look at a painting and not get it at all, then make these grandiose nonsense proclamations about the artist's intent that aren't even remotely borne out.

MARIN LOVES HIM. She still clearly does. That's why she wants to avoid hurting or using him any further.

The hate for females among some of you is depressing.
 
Fed-Kun's army
Joined
Jun 4, 2024
Messages
81
(I posted this in the Church of Potteto's version of this chapter as well, but I prefer Tonikaku Scans' translation, so I thought I might as well post it here as well. Broadly the same, with an addendum regarding further thoughts on this chapter at the bottom)

I've been ruminating on the last couple of chapters since they came out, and have kinda changed my mind about Marin and Gojou's relationship, especially after reading some of the comments people left. It has become increasingly clear that this honestly isn't healthy. For either of them. They're codependent, with Gojou enabling Marin's lack of responsibility and emotionally selfish nature. There's a lot of wailing about the drama and people wanting a return to wholesomeness but if you take a step back, this doesn't feel wholesome at all. A relationship, especially a romantic one, should be mutually beneficial. Is this that?

Ask yourself; what does Gojou do for Marin? He makes her costumes, forgoing sleep, study, and even his own ambitions to do so. He cooks for her. He acts as a social bond to another cosplayer that can't stand Marin herself. He spends what must at this point be hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of yen to make her as happy as she can possibly be in her hobby.

What does Marin do for Gojou?

...

No, honestly, what does Marin do for Gojou? What interest does she actually show in him, as opposed to what he can do for her? Because as far as I can recall, Chapter 103 - in volume fucking 14 - is the first time the two of them went out and did something purely related to Gojou's interests and desires. Everything else is a result of or preparation for something that Marin or her friends wanted to do. She's "nice" to Gojou in that she doesn't immediately make fun of him for having a slightly weird hobby, but that's not some amazing feat - that's table stakes for being a decent human being. She has about as right to be considered a good partner as those interminable harem protagonists who get the girl because they are the only males in their stories who treat the romantic interests with basic respect.

"Oh, but he's gotten better at making hina dolls since he started helping her." "Oh, he met that other friend as a result of his interest in prop-making." "Oh, the class has a better opinion of him since he helped do her makeup." If that's your response, you completely misread the question. I asked specifically what Marin actively chooses to do to for the purposes of helping Gojou out with his life.

See, a lot of people pointed out to this being a self-insert fic from the author, and I can see it. This story revolves around the interests of the female lead, and everything that the male lead wants or feels is sublimated to that. He wants to be a hina doll artist? Well, helping the female lead with her costumes makes him better at that! He wants to make friends and connect to the people around him? Well, joining the female lead's social group is how he does that! At no point does Marin actively reach out and try to aid him; she's a passive recipient to his efforts and the universe (read; the mangaka) rewards him for sacrificing everything to her.

You know you fucked up your romance when Nagatoro, the girl whose first encounter with her romantic partner ended with him in tears, ends up a healthier, more balanced, and more giving partner than your female lead. At least Nagatoro - who I remind everyone started out as NTR-bait emotional abuse porn on twitter - was aware of and concerned about the inner life of her partner!

You have to feel sorry for Gojou. He's been placed in a universe where he'll never win, will never find true happiness, except in subservience to anothers' whims. The manga even says so - Chapter 94. "Wakana, too... As long as he lives, I don't think he'll find satisfaction. So, Marin-chan, please make sure to praise the things that Wakana makes." Hell, even though during the last cosplaying arc with Haniel Gojou was actually into things for his own reasons, the way it got presented - with Gojou on his knees begging Marin for forgiveness for being "selfish" enough to ask her to cosplay as a character she told him she wanted to cosplay as - positions him as a supplicant to Marin.

And taking that line, that this isn't a romcom centered around an ecchi gyaru with a love of cosplay but instead a dramedy about a toxic relationship with that gyaru, actually puts their earlier interactions in a new light. Marin's strongest character trait, from the very beginning, was that she didn't care what other people felt. She didn't care if they thought she was rude, or if she was weird for openly talking about porn, or anything. Remember all that kinda pervy stuff from those early volumes? How uncomfortable Gojou felt every time she gave him stuff to watch or he had to measure her for costumes? Remember how she never cared at all about trying to make him feel more comfortable (or, hell, maybe compromising in the smallest possible way so that he didn't feel that way)? How she didn't care that exposing his skill as a tailor or makeup artist might scare him or alienate him from the class (you might say "she knew it wouldn't result in anything bad - but we NEVER see her reassure him about that! That seems like a great moment of caring and friendship that this manga just... never bothers with)?

Marin never compromises on what she wants. Compromising your desires is for Gojou.

I mentioned Marin being akin to a Manic Pixie Dream Girl; you know the trope. Super-bubbly extroverted "quirky" girl who meets a shy, introverted, inexpressive loner and slowly breaks down his shell with irrepressible energy. It's a common enough male fantasy in media. Except this is more the flipped version of it, the female fantasy. She's a teenager with basically no self-control (she spent thousands of dollars on a DSLR camera because it's model name started with the same letter as her own!), no ability to manage her life (shown by her eating habits), no thought towards social norms or niceties (framed as her being straightforward, but that's not really consistent with her absolute reticence regarding Gojou. A more consistent explanation is that she just doesn't care about offending or discomforting others), and ends up dumping all of the emotional and physical labor of their relationship onto Gojou.

This is coming off as more mean-spirited than I intend. Sure, she's way too nonchalant about how much she asks or expects from her partner. She's 15, though. And an only child. The only real, deep relationship she would have at this point is that to her parents, where she would be the passive recipient of all of their love and attention. That's how she acts in this relationship too; she's more like Gojou's child than his girlfriend. Of course she doesn't have the emotional maturity to actually give equally to a partner. And no one would expect her to. I'm not making a value judgement of her - just pointing out how unfair this whole situation is to him.

The longer this goes on, frankly, the less I want this romance to continue. Gojou gives so much, so readily, desperate for any scrap of acceptance. He's still mentally that orphan, scared of the world and dependent on a calcified shell to protect him from it. Closed, afraid to reach out and ask for help, to let anyone know that it's too much for him. He deserves someone who'll reach over, who'll tell him it's okay to rely on her for a while, that his needs matter too. A person who can say "we" instead of "I".

Because Marin sure as shit won't.

Hell, at this point I think Non would make a better pairing. At least in this chapter she treats Gojou as someone whose feelings matter and that she has to talk to when they have problems, rather than Marin's fundamentally cowardly and self-centered solution of just walking the fuck away whenever the risk of being vulnerable rears up.

ADDENDUM: So this chapter's ending can kind of be seen as Marin compromising, giving up on her goals to support Gojou. But if that's the case, if that's how it's meant to be perceived, the problem is even worse than I originally thought. Even for teenagers, this is painful to watch. Imagine that this happened to you. Imagine you had a friend who introduced you to a hobby - say, rock climbing or something else you were nervous about doing publically because of self-image issues, and introduced you to a friend group through it, and you've spent a bunch of time and energy with them enjoying this hobby together.

Then you try to introduce your friend to something you're interested in and you're kind of shy about. Maybe you're a high-level esports player trying to go pro and mention how much time it takes to practice your skills. You know, the kind of thing that friends talk about; the situations in their lives and the struggles they're going through. This is the first time you've opened up like this, after like half a year of friendship.

And then that friend, immediately afterwards, straight up ghosts you. That's kind of weird, you think, so you go to their house to see what's up, and that friend, before you can even finish asking about plans to go rock climbing next weekend, says that they never want to go rock climbing with you again. And their excuse is that obviously you care so much about being a professional esports player that you have no time for the hobby they introduced you to.

Do you understand how shocked and hurt and betrayed you'd feel at that moment?

This is not a romance. I'm sorry, it just isn't. Neither of these characters treat the other as a romantic interest. Gojou definitely doesn't see Marin in a romantic light - he doesn't even see her in an erotic way any more! He spent the night at her house, hopped up on aphrodisiac energy drinks, and thought nothing of it. And Marin doesn't even treat Gojou as a friend, let alone a potential boyfriend. She treats him like a simp. Where other girls might have a guy like him saved as "Free Lunch" on their phones, he's "Cheap Costumes". AND HE ALSO MAKES HER LUNCH! The only hint that she sees him as anything greater was her promising herself she would confess to him three arcs and two years ago. And then... nothing.
Fukuda-sensei's reply (chapter 107) to this essay:
Batman-Slapping-Robin-Meme-Explained.jpg
 
Active member
Joined
Jul 26, 2023
Messages
189
(I posted this in the Church of Potteto's version of this chapter as well, but I prefer Tonikaku Scans' translation, so I thought I might as well post it here as well. Broadly the same, with an addendum regarding further thoughts on this chapter at the bottom)

I've been ruminating on the last couple of chapters since they came out, and have kinda changed my mind about Marin and Gojou's relationship, especially after reading some of the comments people left. It has become increasingly clear that this honestly isn't healthy. For either of them. They're codependent, with Gojou enabling Marin's lack of responsibility and emotionally selfish nature. There's a lot of wailing about the drama and people wanting a return to wholesomeness but if you take a step back, this doesn't feel wholesome at all. A relationship, especially a romantic one, should be mutually beneficial. Is this that?

Ask yourself; what does Gojou do for Marin? He makes her costumes, forgoing sleep, study, and even his own ambitions to do so. He cooks for her. He acts as a social bond to another cosplayer that can't stand Marin herself. He spends what must at this point be hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of yen to make her as happy as she can possibly be in her hobby.

What does Marin do for Gojou?

...

No, honestly, what does Marin do for Gojou? What interest does she actually show in him, as opposed to what he can do for her? Because as far as I can recall, Chapter 103 - in volume fucking 14 - is the first time the two of them went out and did something purely related to Gojou's interests and desires. Everything else is a result of or preparation for something that Marin or her friends wanted to do. She's "nice" to Gojou in that she doesn't immediately make fun of him for having a slightly weird hobby, but that's not some amazing feat - that's table stakes for being a decent human being. She has about as right to be considered a good partner as those interminable harem protagonists who get the girl because they are the only males in their stories who treat the romantic interests with basic respect.

"Oh, but he's gotten better at making hina dolls since he started helping her." "Oh, he met that other friend as a result of his interest in prop-making." "Oh, the class has a better opinion of him since he helped do her makeup." If that's your response, you completely misread the question. I asked specifically what Marin actively chooses to do to for the purposes of helping Gojou out with his life.

See, a lot of people pointed out to this being a self-insert fic from the author, and I can see it. This story revolves around the interests of the female lead, and everything that the male lead wants or feels is sublimated to that. He wants to be a hina doll artist? Well, helping the female lead with her costumes makes him better at that! He wants to make friends and connect to the people around him? Well, joining the female lead's social group is how he does that! At no point does Marin actively reach out and try to aid him; she's a passive recipient to his efforts and the universe (read; the mangaka) rewards him for sacrificing everything to her.

You know you fucked up your romance when Nagatoro, the girl whose first encounter with her romantic partner ended with him in tears, ends up a healthier, more balanced, and more giving partner than your female lead. At least Nagatoro - who I remind everyone started out as NTR-bait emotional abuse porn on twitter - was aware of and concerned about the inner life of her partner!

You have to feel sorry for Gojou. He's been placed in a universe where he'll never win, will never find true happiness, except in subservience to anothers' whims. The manga even says so - Chapter 94. "Wakana, too... As long as he lives, I don't think he'll find satisfaction. So, Marin-chan, please make sure to praise the things that Wakana makes." Hell, even though during the last cosplaying arc with Haniel Gojou was actually into things for his own reasons, the way it got presented - with Gojou on his knees begging Marin for forgiveness for being "selfish" enough to ask her to cosplay as a character she told him she wanted to cosplay as - positions him as a supplicant to Marin.

And taking that line, that this isn't a romcom centered around an ecchi gyaru with a love of cosplay but instead a dramedy about a toxic relationship with that gyaru, actually puts their earlier interactions in a new light. Marin's strongest character trait, from the very beginning, was that she didn't care what other people felt. She didn't care if they thought she was rude, or if she was weird for openly talking about porn, or anything. Remember all that kinda pervy stuff from those early volumes? How uncomfortable Gojou felt every time she gave him stuff to watch or he had to measure her for costumes? Remember how she never cared at all about trying to make him feel more comfortable (or, hell, maybe compromising in the smallest possible way so that he didn't feel that way)? How she didn't care that exposing his skill as a tailor or makeup artist might scare him or alienate him from the class (you might say "she knew it wouldn't result in anything bad - but we NEVER see her reassure him about that! That seems like a great moment of caring and friendship that this manga just... never bothers with)?

Marin never compromises on what she wants. Compromising your desires is for Gojou.

I mentioned Marin being akin to a Manic Pixie Dream Girl; you know the trope. Super-bubbly extroverted "quirky" girl who meets a shy, introverted, inexpressive loner and slowly breaks down his shell with irrepressible energy. It's a common enough male fantasy in media. Except this is more the flipped version of it, the female fantasy. She's a teenager with basically no self-control (she spent thousands of dollars on a DSLR camera because it's model name started with the same letter as her own!), no ability to manage her life (shown by her eating habits), no thought towards social norms or niceties (framed as her being straightforward, but that's not really consistent with her absolute reticence regarding Gojou. A more consistent explanation is that she just doesn't care about offending or discomforting others), and ends up dumping all of the emotional and physical labor of their relationship onto Gojou.

This is coming off as more mean-spirited than I intend. Sure, she's way too nonchalant about how much she asks or expects from her partner. She's 15, though. And an only child. The only real, deep relationship she would have at this point is that to her parents, where she would be the passive recipient of all of their love and attention. That's how she acts in this relationship too; she's more like Gojou's child than his girlfriend. Of course she doesn't have the emotional maturity to actually give equally to a partner. And no one would expect her to. I'm not making a value judgement of her - just pointing out how unfair this whole situation is to him.

The longer this goes on, frankly, the less I want this romance to continue. Gojou gives so much, so readily, desperate for any scrap of acceptance. He's still mentally that orphan, scared of the world and dependent on a calcified shell to protect him from it. Closed, afraid to reach out and ask for help, to let anyone know that it's too much for him. He deserves someone who'll reach over, who'll tell him it's okay to rely on her for a while, that his needs matter too. A person who can say "we" instead of "I".

Because Marin sure as shit won't.

Hell, at this point I think Non would make a better pairing. At least in this chapter she treats Gojou as someone whose feelings matter and that she has to talk to when they have problems, rather than Marin's fundamentally cowardly and self-centered solution of just walking the fuck away whenever the risk of being vulnerable rears up.

ADDENDUM: So this chapter's ending can kind of be seen as Marin compromising, giving up on her goals to support Gojou. But if that's the case, if that's how it's meant to be perceived, the problem is even worse than I originally thought. Even for teenagers, this is painful to watch. Imagine that this happened to you. Imagine you had a friend who introduced you to a hobby - say, rock climbing or something else you were nervous about doing publically because of self-image issues, and introduced you to a friend group through it, and you've spent a bunch of time and energy with them enjoying this hobby together.

Then you try to introduce your friend to something you're interested in and you're kind of shy about. Maybe you're a high-level esports player trying to go pro and mention how much time it takes to practice your skills. You know, the kind of thing that friends talk about; the situations in their lives and the struggles they're going through. This is the first time you've opened up like this, after like half a year of friendship.

And then that friend, immediately afterwards, straight up ghosts you. That's kind of weird, you think, so you go to their house to see what's up, and that friend, before you can even finish asking about plans to go rock climbing next weekend, says that they never want to go rock climbing with you again. And their excuse is that obviously you care so much about being a professional esports player that you have no time for the hobby they introduced you to.

Do you understand how shocked and hurt and betrayed you'd feel at that moment?

This is not a romance. I'm sorry, it just isn't. Neither of these characters treat the other as a romantic interest. Gojou definitely doesn't see Marin in a romantic light - he doesn't even see her in an erotic way any more! He spent the night at her house, hopped up on aphrodisiac energy drinks, and thought nothing of it. And Marin doesn't even treat Gojou as a friend, let alone a potential boyfriend. She treats him like a simp. Where other girls might have a guy like him saved as "Free Lunch" on their phones, he's "Cheap Costumes". AND HE ALSO MAKES HER LUNCH! The only hint that she sees him as anything greater was her promising herself she would confess to him three arcs and two years ago. And then... nothing.
Wrote a whole essay to get proved wrong
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Mar 15, 2023
Messages
603
(I posted this in the Church of Potteto's version of this chapter as well, but I prefer Tonikaku Scans' translation, so I thought I might as well post it here as well. Broadly the same, with an addendum regarding further thoughts on this chapter at the bottom)

...
Wow, what a wall of text! Even I (frequently guilty of making Walls of Text) am amazed. But this reply will be (relatively) short.

First their relationship is quite healthy (though more is ahead obviously). Before getting to that...

Goujou is the exemplar of craftmanship. Though it's true that he is making the costumes at Marin's request, the absolutely fundamental reason that he's making them is that he is a craftsman and artist. He's making them because he is driven to make beautiful things. That he gets to make them for the girl he likes (loves) is an added plus.

Ask yourself; what does Gojou do for Marin? He makes her costumes, forgoing sleep, study, and even his own ambitions to do so. He cooks for her. He acts as a social bond to another cosplayer that can't stand Marin herself. He spends what must at this point be hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of yen to make her as happy as she can possibly be in her hobby.

Marin is furthering his ambitions. Effectively what she is doing is suggesting projects that catch his attention and allow him to go hard mode creator. He's not forgoing sleep for her, he's doing that because that's what he wants to do as a craftsman/artist. (Isn't this completely obvious??)

Social bond to another cosplayer that can't stand Marin... Are you talking about Inui? Inui likes Marin. (Yes, Marin's personality hits the reclusive Inui kind of hard, but Inui also benefits from and appreciates Marin's effusive personality.)

Marin pays for the materials used in the costumes. This is a basic plot point that's covered early on. Incidentally, Marin works as a competent professional. One of the major points here is that Marin herself is a skilled an competent professional -- modelling isn't that simple -- and Marin is able to step into the roles of the characters that she plays even when those characters are quite different from hers. This is one of the major points of the Haniel cosplay -- that Marin is also a skilled professional.

As for cooking... That's fairly typical comedy. And she does try. And it's not that much effort for Goujou and grandfather to make an extra serving. And Marin (as I recall) compensates them for the extra ingredients used.

What does Marin do for Gojou?

As for what she provides for him: emotional and social input that he absolutely needs. Her very early statements of philosophy of independence is also crucial to him. It's a gift that turns his life around. That combined with her deep and real appreciation for his work is also crucial to his needs. In addition, her social nature compensates for his reclusive nature, sparking him into contact with other people -- which he deeply needs, but isn't able provide for himself.

Goujou is an introvert, and on top of that, focused on his work. So, no surprise that he doesn't have much for outside interests. So, no surprise that most of the social outings are at Marin's instigation. But he likes and enjoys those outings. He's not being dragged along.

The suggestion that Marin is using him is just... whack. I don't think the girl has a single manipulative bone in her body.

... I asked specifically what Marin actively chooses to do to for the purposes of helping Gojou out with his life.

Again, I think that you're misunderstanding that the costume making is something that Goujou is doing for Marin. His fundamental driver isn't Marin, it's craftsmanship/artistry.

As for the way Marin sees it, it's something that they do together because they're friends and their interests overlap. And it's because Marin is in love and likes being with him.

Marin never compromises on what she wants. Compromising your desires is for Gojou.

Again, this comes down to complete failure to recognize why Goujou is making costumes. Again, Goujou is not compromising his desires; it's the opposite -- she is helping him to realize them. (I could say that this is not intentional, and she probably is a bit selfish, but she absolutely would not continue with any of this if she saw that he didn't like doing it. And she is definitely emotionally sensitive enough to realize if he didn't like it.)

She's a teenager with basically no self-control (she spent thousands of dollars on a DSLR camera because it's model name started with the same letter as her own!), no ability to manage her life (shown by her eating habits),...

No self control? She diligently worked so that she could buy it herself, rather than ask her father for it! And she cut back on her eating because she gained a little weight.

(I'm starting to wonder if someone asked an AI chatbot to churn out anti-Marin flame material. I'm still surprised by how off-base this entire wall of text is. It's just one obviously wrong interpretation after another.)

Final point: Craftsmanship and artistry. The drive to create something wonderful. That's the primary text of Dress Up Darling. It's the mangaka saying "This is what drives me. This is what drives other artists. This is what drives Otaku." It befuddles me that anyone can miss this point and interpret it in such a twisted way.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top