Sousou no Frieren - Vol. 2 Ch. 14 - Articulate Monsters

[AvidWebFan]

TL;DR I'm not too jazzed about the portrayal of demons in this so far, but the author has so far demonstrated quite polished skills, so I tentatively have faith in where they're taking this so far.

Here's my main problem with writing demons as inhuman monsters wearing human disguises - although fantasy has the excuse of magic and otherwordly forces to explain it away or whatnot, there is no real-world equivalent of something shaped like and sounding like a human not actually being human. It just makes me very uncomfortable when seeing what by all accounts looks like people be mercilessly cut down and then justifying it. Maybe that's just my idealism reacting viscerally against violence and horror, but IDK if portraying it as a good thing can ever be done "well", and that's not even getting into justification. Was Frieren right that demons should be exterminated without prejudice? Maybe, but I don't like that that is a question that has to be asked at all. Fantasy races always tackle the issue of "personhood" with a measure of awkwardness, in my experience. "What Measure is a Non-Human" and all that. Still, the writing in this series has been right up my alley up until this point, and we still don't know how this plotline is going to play out, so maybe there's some meaningful twist coming later that makes me look back at this chapter differently. Who knows?

 

[RevereShin]

@balenol @tikibo I felt the same way coming into this comment section.
... And left feeling very different because I decided to stick around too long. lol

 

[balenol]

@areticentreader what happened when the demons is an actual spawn of hell? I think the fact that dwarves, elves, humans, etc. can intermingle within a society shows that demons are demons, because they're coming from totally different background/world. So this one is not about race, it's about pure genetics and culture.

A.D.A.B. (all demons are bastards) posters when?

 

[anifd]

@SunSun why do you think it's an assumption and not established fact? would there not be a basis for his statement that would come from humanity's collection of experiences and information throughout the history demons have plagued them? cant say i can respond to your second point with certainty being that, while i am aware that the the translator has a tendency at times to make minor tweaks to the original dialogue/wording (i dont read the raws often but like really inconsequential changes in wording such as drunk -> corrupt), the use of "predator" may totally be correct and accurate on the translator's part. therefore, it would be useless to argue based on wording.

"doesn't necessarily need to eat people," however, leaves less room for misinterpretation since i doubt the villagers would agree to let her in if it was otherwise. it shows that the demon girl lived with the villagers for some time. if she really needed humans for sustenance, that wouldn't be possible in the first unless she was secretly killing humans. which i also find unlikely seeing that she just outright burns the village chief's house and kills him so i doubt she would feel the need to hunt humans in secret to survive since she sees nothing wrong with killing in public. i assume the author will expand more on demons later which could possibly overturn this, who knows?

 

[Bana]

@AvidWebFan

It just makes me very uncomfortable when seeing what by all accounts looks like people be mercilessly cut down and then justifying it.

i suppose you saw Himmel's experience with demons in this chapter? he was where you are now. but after seeing how the demon really saw things, he had to change his mind. it isn't enough to judge everything by how they look. observing how they act and understanding how they really feel/behave is more important. i won't say that your beliefs are wrong, they certainly are necessary for a peaceful and kind world, but they are hard to stand by in a world that isn't peaceful and kind. just as Himmel found out, and even then he refused to kill after recognizing the threat. it seems like you want everyone to be relatable and have the same values you do; chances are that there are at least a few people who do not, and this chapter plays on that because everyone assumes, "they're just humans with horns because they look like us and speak like us," and Frieren is all like, "wtf are you talking about," because she's the only one who has actual experience with a race with totally alien culture and beliefs.

there is no real-world equivalent of something shaped like and sounding like a human not actually being human.

maybe. depends on what you mean by human. psychopaths and sociopaths are biologically human, but have a state of mind that is outside what we might consider normal human behavior. they operate on a different system of beliefs and values usually to the detriment of normal people around them. they aren't necessarily evil, they just don't understand the world and consequences the same as normal people would. maybe they would be a model for you to understand what these demons in the story are like?

 

[areticentreader]

@balenol I feel like I'm misreading your response a little bit. or maybe I didn't express myself well enough, so you misunderstood my point. so I'm not really sure what from my comment you're responding to or why you're responding like that because I feel like we're somewhat saying the same thing? I'm saying that depending on the perspective, demons may or may not be evil. For humans, demons are evil because they're the natural predators of humans. They're biologically predisposed to be harmful to humans, basically.

On second glance, I can see that it might have seemed like I was saying demons with the way they are now are simply choosing not to live with humans peacefully. so maybe that's what you're responding to? I meant more that the demons prey on humans so they wouldn't really want to live peacefully with them the same way humans would want to. also I did say race, but I meant race more as a synonym for species, which would agree more with your point

 

[Taerene]

dam, wasnt really expecting that

 

[Edixo]

A competent elf and actual evil, monstrous demons?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTUUVlTEV4

 

[Shinobu]

wow people are really over analyzing the whole demons are just beasts thingy. They just happen to be capable of learning, deception and social struture but are still no different than just another monster whose decisions are totally influenced by their nature to prey on humans. Pretty much the cliche evil villain race but not entirely I suppose.

 

[Lightbrand]

Only pretty little girl demon can get away with this cliche.

Had it been a grotesque male demon saying mother won't help his survival chances after he ate that couple's daughter.

 

[Yanagi]

IDK why someone would trust a guillotine to be bringing peace.

 

[c1]

Finally, a manga that treats demons like demons.

 

[SunSun]

@anifd You're assuming that humanity's collective knowledge of demons is intact and uncorrupted, as well as distributed to everyone. However look at the information the manga shows. Flamme, Frieren's master, was still physically in the world about a thousand years ago. And it was Flamme who classified monsters that spoke, as demons, going so far as to say that those monsters were the ancestors of demons, after the flashback.

Which then makes the entire scene where the village chief says, "not necessarily eat humans to survive", just him talking out of his ass cause they don't want to kill something that looks like a young girl, who just a moment ago, called out "It hurts...mother", that stopped even the couple who lost their daughter to this monster from saying anything.

Now yes the scene showed the demon living with people for some time, however given the girl had not grown much and neither did the seasons appear to change, it wasn't a long period of time. And remember now in the real world that predators don't always need to be constantly eating; most can go for some period of time without food. Take the Phantom demon in one of the previous chapters, his actions drastically cut down the people who showed up in his hunting grounds, but he still survived long enough to pick off the few that did come to the mountains, and was described as exclusively consuming humans. So one cannot assume that the demon girl was secretly feeding off humans, OR that she doesn't need to eat humans to survive because of her missing a few meals.

I mean nevermind predators, vast majority of living creatures can go hungry for a long time before dying. Humans can last 30-40 days with just water before starvation symptoms set in.

Regarding demon ecology, it is safe to assume that A) there are multiple demon species and B) all have specialized to hunt humans to some degree. What isn't clear is whether demons need humans to survive, or humans ended up being preferred prey like how Orcas prefer eating other whales but can also eat fish, seals, sea lions, sharks, penguins, etc

Now with multiple demon species, that's easy enough to figure out by looking at Qual and the Phantom demon, compared to the demon girl, the messengers, and Aura's appearance. The chapter with the Phantom demon even specifically emphasizes it's a unique species of demon.

With regards to specialization, how the girl and messengers behave and look, is no different than real world predators using mimicry to better ambush their prey. The phantom demon takes it a step further by using actual lures in the form of phantoms and likely some mind reading magic.

Finally, I can understand Kirei Cake making some few changes cause context changes things. Yeah the text may have said, "drunkard priest" but both Freiren and others reference the God/Goddess smiting or punishing him for drinking all the time...which would make him a corrupt priest that doesn't follow the teachings of his own deity.

 

[Kizuro]

Giving me another perspective on Demon, nice one author

 

[Midoriha]

@tuatara1
Jesus fucking Christ dude.
It's a fucking manga, it's not a socio-political statement about what's happening the ***CURRENT YEAR***.
Demons are Demons? Big whoop. Are you 12 or something that this is the first time you've seen a black and white situation on fiction? Is it the first time You've seen DEMONS being DEMONS instead of poor misunderstood edgeboys and God is the big bad meanie poo poo head? It's fiction, primarily for entertainment, not everything has to be ambiguous, not everything has to have a big deep message so you can feel smart and wank yourself about how moral and a good person you are. I bet you are the same kind of idiot who says "Everything is politics" without understanding the meaning of the word "nuance".
Get of the internet for a day or two, or even a week, and get a grip in reality.

 

[Leomonade]

This was a good chapter... and I don't know what some of you are so upset about. People will always treat livestock as a food and material source and nothing more. They are living beings but we see no wrong in profiting from them. Demons in this series see humans as food. Have you ever felt bad that you ate a tomato?? It's just food, right? There isn't a reason for the demons in this series to feel bad about devouring humans. It's not that deep.
It's just human arrogance to think that creatures that resemble us in appearance should be treated like humans.
What makes humans "unique" in the first place is our morality and how it's very different compared to most creatures.
Frieren is right in this situation. It's like mice trying to make peace with cats.

 

[comedyxtragedy]

@Petnavis

Yeah, they're nature won't change either. I can understand your point. Co-existence maybe not the answer, but I think more of segregation.
But what makes me wonder is the fact that they do want peace. Perhaps not in peace as relationship, but peace in not being disturbed. I think it's more in line with "You do what you do and we do what we do, but we're going to need rule for that."

 

[seviesp]

We have seen the monster that use dead persons appearance to eat and nobody cried, but when is a Demon who tricks people to eat and kill it, is bad because reason?I usually hate the "You are only a food like cows" cliche but right now is use well because is human falling for a trick and not the Kyubbei/shiki rip off trying to sound deep.
They probably will find a good or at least a decent demon, tho.

 

[orangpelupa]

This manga is so awesome! I think it's the first manga I've ever read where it showed that demons are not humans despite they can speak and looks like humans

. They have totally different values and way of thinking than human. Their morality also totally different.

Yes they are sentient, but that's doesn't mean we can discuss things with them with human mindset.

Heck, even manga with alien or isekai never do that! Aliens and isekai monsters etc always have similar mindset etc as human.

This manga is si refreshing

 

[welcome2atlantis]

She had wisdom of the ages. They should have listened to her before throwing her to jail.
And next chapter, maybe the consequences