@Moribden I already stated what the problem is: promoting fear of the other. Everything Frieren says about the demons in this chapter has been said about real people in order to justify every form of oppression, including genocide. And genocide is what she's effectively advocating - though she would deny that by asserting that demons aren't people. Except... that's also how genocide has been justified many times over. "They aren't really people, so it's not murder. If anything, we're doing the world a favor by eliminating their wicked threat."
Sousou no Frieren - Vol. 2 Ch. 14 - Articulate Monsters
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@Midoriha i think it's cause they believe that since morality is relative truly evil beings don't exist, they're just "misunderstood".
Saw the same kind of shit comments when Goblin Slayer came out.
@Moribden yeah even the demon lead "messenger of peace" straight out says they're man-eating predators. Implies they literally only exist to eat humans, and there's people here trying to make it a social issue.
Saw the same kind of shit comments when Goblin Slayer came out.
@Moribden yeah even the demon lead "messenger of peace" straight out says they're man-eating predators. Implies they literally only exist to eat humans, and there's people here trying to make it a social issue.
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too."
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"
Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"
Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."
@BalrogDeMorgoth what I meant in my response was that the predator-prey relationship that animals have in the wild differs from the situation of the demons. my wording was insufficient.
there's nothing evil in animals hunting other animals, as it's only a matter of survival. on page 10, it's mentioned it's not necessary for demons to hunt humans as sustenance hence the reason I disagreed with your assessment that demons acted on the same principle that animals do.
there's nothing evil in animals hunting other animals, as it's only a matter of survival. on page 10, it's mentioned it's not necessary for demons to hunt humans as sustenance hence the reason I disagreed with your assessment that demons acted on the same principle that animals do.
@IlsaTilsaKilsaMilsa i mean we as humans can tame a tiger, a better comparison would be a deer, boar, or monkey trying to tame a tiger into not eating meat.
Or a wolf being tamed by sheep, a fox being tamed by chickens, etc
@Fari well demons or more generally "malevolent spiritual beings" across various cultures typically ate humans as well as caused disasters.
@Tsuki09 no, the town had been at war with them for a long while, according to the chapter. Maybe they didn't have demons attacking like the girl demon in the flashback?
@Bootybug can just literally mean rebuilding her power base cause the heroes smashed it
@greatninja3 she didn't "learn to do evil", demons in this work eat humans because humans are food to them.
@anifd that line was just an assumption by the village chief. After the flashback, Frieren states that her master Flamme, classified monsters who can be well spoken as demons. The demon messenger also admits that they are man-eating predators. Though I think it's worse in that the demons are self aware and just find it hilarious that the lunch special thinks they can get along.
Or a wolf being tamed by sheep, a fox being tamed by chickens, etc
@Fari well demons or more generally "malevolent spiritual beings" across various cultures typically ate humans as well as caused disasters.
@Tsuki09 no, the town had been at war with them for a long while, according to the chapter. Maybe they didn't have demons attacking like the girl demon in the flashback?
@Bootybug can just literally mean rebuilding her power base cause the heroes smashed it
@greatninja3 she didn't "learn to do evil", demons in this work eat humans because humans are food to them.
@anifd that line was just an assumption by the village chief. After the flashback, Frieren states that her master Flamme, classified monsters who can be well spoken as demons. The demon messenger also admits that they are man-eating predators. Though I think it's worse in that the demons are self aware and just find it hilarious that the lunch special thinks they can get along.
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WHY THE RATING DROPPING
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@Stevejust well, they can still be killing and eating out pf the fun of it.
Being not necessarily out of hunger, but just for the sake of it.
Being not necessarily out of hunger, but just for the sake of it.
Uh.. demons have always been demons before. It's just that they've tried to humanize demons as "different and misunderstood".
I wouldn't say it's refreshing to go back to demons are demons. At this point, it ultimately depends on execution, having both sides of the coin pretty much explored well already.
As for people concerned about xenophobia and genocide parallels, I understand their point. Dehumanization is the start of many a horrific evil. However, the manga took pains to makes it unequivocally clear, without room for ambiguity.
Can this be a socio-political right wing statement? Perhaps.
Or perhaps some people are just reading too much into this.
I wouldn't say it's refreshing to go back to demons are demons. At this point, it ultimately depends on execution, having both sides of the coin pretty much explored well already.
As for people concerned about xenophobia and genocide parallels, I understand their point. Dehumanization is the start of many a horrific evil. However, the manga took pains to makes it unequivocally clear, without room for ambiguity.
Can this be a socio-political right wing statement? Perhaps.
Or perhaps some people are just reading too much into this.
@tuatara1
Yeah. And time and time again the demons proved Frieren to be right. The demon himself says she's right, but noooo. "iT wAs UsEd To JuStIfY gEnOcIdE". It's not a question of morality. Because human morality literally doesn't exist for demons. It's "us or them" type of thing in that world. Either demons are wiped out completely, or humans are forced into the role of cattle.
In this particular case hatred and fear are completely justified. And should be promoted a thousand times over so there's no idiots that think that welcoming demons is a good idea.
Yeah. And time and time again the demons proved Frieren to be right. The demon himself says she's right, but noooo. "iT wAs UsEd To JuStIfY gEnOcIdE". It's not a question of morality. Because human morality literally doesn't exist for demons. It's "us or them" type of thing in that world. Either demons are wiped out completely, or humans are forced into the role of cattle.
In this particular case hatred and fear are completely justified. And should be promoted a thousand times over so there's no idiots that think that welcoming demons is a good idea.
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As much as I wanted a "flawed hero" scenario, I feel like this works out almost just as well. Like it would be cool to see a story where maybe the protagonists were wrong in their judgement, but in this case, it would completely undermine everything we've known up to this point about the Hero, his companions, and their journey.
Maybe I'm reading into this too much but this is sort of a 'return to form' in that demons are just that, DEMONS. They aren't another race we can communicate with, instead, they are our mortal enemies. Why? Who knows for other stories, but in this one, it's clearly defined and shown. They are the predator to humanity... and so for us to live, they must die.
But damn. That line about using "mother" is convenient was just... DAMN... Fucking. Ruthless. And I loved it.
Edit: Scratch that part about reading into this too much. ALL Y'ALL ARE THE SAME! ... AND I LOVE IT! 🤣
Edit2: Wow. Okay. I was not expecting this when I just wanted to post a random comment on my thoughts about this glorious chapter and then jump ship to catch up on other manga. There is a LOT to digest with this whole thread. But my main thing is that people are taking these... how should I put this... ideologies a bit, no, WAY too far. I personally don't see this as analogous to human A vs human B. I definitely see this as sheep accepting a wolf (that they've seen on numerous occasions tear their friends and family limb from limb, devour their flesh and organs down to the bones, and then piss on their skeletons just because they can, aka to show dominance) into the herd just because the wolf went "baaaaah baaaaaaaaah" a couple, a few times. This isn't an ethnicity or race difference, no no no, THIS IS A DIFFERENCE OF SPECIES. Actually, no, taxonomically speaking, this is a difference of ORDER, maybe even CLASS.
I understand where some people are coming from, I really, truly do, but this manga, more specifically, THIS CHAPTER, is not the place to be having this discussion. The demons themselves even say it, THEY. ARE. MAN EATERS. There is no argument, or at least, there SHOULD be no argument over this FACT (in this world, anyway). This chapter LITERALLY gave us an example of what would happen to humans with the ideology of 'demons can be redeemed' or whatever in the village chief. Demons don't understand the human language. They may be able to imitate it, BUT IT'S FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DECEIT. I don't have a good way to end this so...
Maybe I'm reading into this too much but this is sort of a 'return to form' in that demons are just that, DEMONS. They aren't another race we can communicate with, instead, they are our mortal enemies. Why? Who knows for other stories, but in this one, it's clearly defined and shown. They are the predator to humanity... and so for us to live, they must die.
But damn. That line about using "mother" is convenient was just... DAMN... Fucking. Ruthless. And I loved it.
Edit: Scratch that part about reading into this too much. ALL Y'ALL ARE THE SAME! ... AND I LOVE IT! 🤣
Edit2: Wow. Okay. I was not expecting this when I just wanted to post a random comment on my thoughts about this glorious chapter and then jump ship to catch up on other manga. There is a LOT to digest with this whole thread. But my main thing is that people are taking these... how should I put this... ideologies a bit, no, WAY too far. I personally don't see this as analogous to human A vs human B. I definitely see this as sheep accepting a wolf (that they've seen on numerous occasions tear their friends and family limb from limb, devour their flesh and organs down to the bones, and then piss on their skeletons just because they can, aka to show dominance) into the herd just because the wolf went "baaaaah baaaaaaaaah" a couple, a few times. This isn't an ethnicity or race difference, no no no, THIS IS A DIFFERENCE OF SPECIES. Actually, no, taxonomically speaking, this is a difference of ORDER, maybe even CLASS.
I understand where some people are coming from, I really, truly do, but this manga, more specifically, THIS CHAPTER, is not the place to be having this discussion. The demons themselves even say it, THEY. ARE. MAN EATERS. There is no argument, or at least, there SHOULD be no argument over this FACT (in this world, anyway). This chapter LITERALLY gave us an example of what would happen to humans with the ideology of 'demons can be redeemed' or whatever in the village chief. Demons don't understand the human language. They may be able to imitate it, BUT IT'S FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DECEIT. I don't have a good way to end this so...
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Frieren's right in that demons evolved and adapted to be able to prey on humans. The demon pretty much said so at the end.
I think if the humans and demons truly wanted to live together in peace, it would be really difficult to have rules that make sense for both humans and demons, as demons seem to have a different moral standard than humans
I don't think the chapter is necessarily saying that if someone is different from another, they just can't live peacefully no matter what.
I know other people have explained this much better, but I feel like this discussion is actually interesting (as long as it centers around fictional races and no one is trying to translate this kind of rhetoric to apply to real offline humans I guess) so I wanted to chime in hehe.
edit: slapped some spoiler tags because I'm wordy help
And I think although Frieren is not human herself, a lot of her morals align more with humans'. (This might be because she's lived and worked alongside humans for some time.) Thus, it makes sense that she sees them more as predators than a race that humans can coexist with. And it would make more sense for the humans to see the demons as such as well. (Even if what the demons are doing is not necessarily evil because if humans are their natural prey, doesn't it make sense for them to eat them like humans hunt other animals as food?)
I think if the humans and demons truly wanted to live together in peace, it would be really difficult to have rules that make sense for both humans and demons, as demons seem to have a different moral standard than humans
(which makes sense because they are fundamentally not human). Most of the rules would probably be have to center around protecting humans from demons, and even then the demons might adapt to still eat humans. Rules work if everyone has a common goal and agree on how to reach that, but we see in this chapter (based on what the demon says at the end) that it might not be the case, even in this town where humans think they are successfully living in peace with the demons.
I don't think the chapter is necessarily saying that if someone is different from another, they just can't live peacefully no matter what.
If it is, then I don't agree with that. We see other races, such as elves and dwarves, coexisting with humans just fine. And although Frieren does not understand other races completely (as we see how flippant she is about the page of time), she still tries to some extent to understand them so that she doesn't cause unnecessary harm. However, the difference here is that humans, dwarves, and elves don't seem to be natural predators and prey of one another. And demons, even when presented with the opportunity, ultimately do not seem interested in trying to create a society in which both they and humans can thrive. (As I know I've mentioned a ton above lol.)
I know other people have explained this much better, but I feel like this discussion is actually interesting (as long as it centers around fictional races and no one is trying to translate this kind of rhetoric to apply to real offline humans I guess) so I wanted to chime in hehe.
edit: slapped some spoiler tags because I'm wordy help
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Demons are ACTUALLY evil in this manga? Holy shit. My theory is right. We're bored of the demons being evil back then and decided to make demons good/neutral. Now that we're quite used to the notion that every mythical-race have their own personality, now we're presented with the OG Demon, straight from hell, deceiving and screwing over sapiens, acting demon-like.
