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Holy shit what a pay off.
Sousou no Frieren - Vol. 3 Ch. 22 - Scales of Obedience
- Thread starter MangaDex
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Wuuuuuuuuuw that's so satisfying. Frierin be like "Urm no oh, yo aint worth any sweat"
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@rrolo1
Isn't it why fieren's master decided to keep her concealing magic a secret? Great Demons didn't even think their opponents would hide their mana.
Imagine if the concealing magic is known it could change the order of Demons.
Also that's an unnecessary long essay. But I agree to most of your humble opinions.
Isn't it why fieren's master decided to keep her concealing magic a secret? Great Demons didn't even think their opponents would hide their mana.
Imagine if the concealing magic is known it could change the order of Demons.
Also that's an unnecessary long essay. But I agree to most of your humble opinions.
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power fantasy done right +1
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That is not what we meant when we say "kill yourself"
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FRIEREN!! FRIEREN!! FRIEREN!! YEAAAAAAH!
@zanonyn
First, nothing of what I said had anything to do with them being beings like us ( ok, shouldn't have used the word "animals" .I used it as in "animated" . Will use creature from now on to avoid confusions ). Taking that aside, the point I wanted to say with that first quote you made of mine is that they , like you say , evolved , as in , they changed with time, and, as they learn with time, they can get more proficient in what they do ... and that they can learn ( Aura learned that her spell could be resisted by people with their head on their necks, didn't she ? ).
Second ,when I mentioned evolutionary pressures, it was definitely not in the sense of foodstuffs, famliy and whatever. Evolution is just a process of selection of the more adept to external pressures and it is not in any way restricted to biology ( computer programs can also be made to evolve, for a example ... it is like that AI neural networks are trained after all: good results will tend to stay around in training while less good results will end up disapearing ) and I meant in the sense that demons with better life stategies will probably do better ( tautology alert
) and that , as demons learn, good strategies will be copied if possible.
Because, as you point out, demons are not biological, any evolution they can suffer will be behavioural . I just pointed out that, the demons behaviour inside their society will be shaped by evolution as much as animals bodies are, and that given some premises , there were some things that did not link together well if you applied some game theory to it ( evolutionary theory uses a lot of game theory after all ) . Given that ....
Third, what premises I pointed out were false and came from my head canon? The text says demons evolved ( you literally posted that one above ) ... not necessarily biologically, but even computer programs can evolve, so that is a moot point ; the text says demons come to be and can be killed ( chapter 14 for the first, multiple chapters, including this one with Aura for the latter ); the text says demon society is organized by mana levels ( this chapter, specifically ); they don't care about their young ( again, chapter 14 ) ; demons can't or won't restrict their mana output ( this chapter ) and mana output will be reduced with usage even if temporarily ( in previous chapters, when the dying demon was wondering why Fern mana was not shrinking and that was what led him to reason Fern was limiting her mana output ) . EDIT : Forgot about the one where demons learn by experience and that their mana levels also increase with it ( this chapter )
Those were my stated premises ... and because you apparently have no issue with my reasoning since you haven't complained about it and only quibble with my premisses, may I ask again: which of the above is a lie of mine and a product of my elaborate head canon? The only one you had a stated quibble was from a admitted miscommunication of mine that I hope I made clear. Any others?
To end, Fourth. Again, I should had been more precise ( sorry about that ). When I meant evolutionary stable, I was using a term that states there is a certain ratio between users of diferent strategies ( like the two I mentioned in my post ) that would be stable if you started there and that if you start with other numbers it will tend to aproach that, without necessarily getting there ( the technical term is atractor , if you want to know more )... in fact the most normal scenario is that number bouncing up and down around that atractor, never hitting it exactly . My point was that, in my scenario and coming from my premises ( again, if you point me out what premises of mine are wrong, it would be helpful ), a 100% honest about mana levels at all times population , while self perpetuating ( if everyone is honest, no one will do in average better than others with the same skills ), would not be and atractor and the insertion of some less honest demons would make sure that it would never get back to a 100% honesty scenario.
THAT is what I meant to by the term evolutionary stable. It has very little to be with a complete set of values and beliefs a society has and in fact I was deliberately simplistic and reduced the whole thing to honest about mana/ not honest about mana in a society filled with beings that come to be with potentially finite time set and with a high incentive to maximize their place in society when that place is decided mostly if not completely by mana output.
First, nothing of what I said had anything to do with them being beings like us ( ok, shouldn't have used the word "animals" .I used it as in "animated" . Will use creature from now on to avoid confusions ). Taking that aside, the point I wanted to say with that first quote you made of mine is that they , like you say , evolved , as in , they changed with time, and, as they learn with time, they can get more proficient in what they do ... and that they can learn ( Aura learned that her spell could be resisted by people with their head on their necks, didn't she ? ).
Second ,when I mentioned evolutionary pressures, it was definitely not in the sense of foodstuffs, famliy and whatever. Evolution is just a process of selection of the more adept to external pressures and it is not in any way restricted to biology ( computer programs can also be made to evolve, for a example ... it is like that AI neural networks are trained after all: good results will tend to stay around in training while less good results will end up disapearing ) and I meant in the sense that demons with better life stategies will probably do better ( tautology alert
) and that , as demons learn, good strategies will be copied if possible. Because, as you point out, demons are not biological, any evolution they can suffer will be behavioural . I just pointed out that, the demons behaviour inside their society will be shaped by evolution as much as animals bodies are, and that given some premises , there were some things that did not link together well if you applied some game theory to it ( evolutionary theory uses a lot of game theory after all ) . Given that ....
Third, what premises I pointed out were false and came from my head canon? The text says demons evolved ( you literally posted that one above ) ... not necessarily biologically, but even computer programs can evolve, so that is a moot point ; the text says demons come to be and can be killed ( chapter 14 for the first, multiple chapters, including this one with Aura for the latter ); the text says demon society is organized by mana levels ( this chapter, specifically ); they don't care about their young ( again, chapter 14 ) ; demons can't or won't restrict their mana output ( this chapter ) and mana output will be reduced with usage even if temporarily ( in previous chapters, when the dying demon was wondering why Fern mana was not shrinking and that was what led him to reason Fern was limiting her mana output ) . EDIT : Forgot about the one where demons learn by experience and that their mana levels also increase with it ( this chapter )
Those were my stated premises ... and because you apparently have no issue with my reasoning since you haven't complained about it and only quibble with my premisses, may I ask again: which of the above is a lie of mine and a product of my elaborate head canon? The only one you had a stated quibble was from a admitted miscommunication of mine that I hope I made clear. Any others?
To end, Fourth. Again, I should had been more precise ( sorry about that ). When I meant evolutionary stable, I was using a term that states there is a certain ratio between users of diferent strategies ( like the two I mentioned in my post ) that would be stable if you started there and that if you start with other numbers it will tend to aproach that, without necessarily getting there ( the technical term is atractor , if you want to know more )... in fact the most normal scenario is that number bouncing up and down around that atractor, never hitting it exactly . My point was that, in my scenario and coming from my premises ( again, if you point me out what premises of mine are wrong, it would be helpful ), a 100% honest about mana levels at all times population , while self perpetuating ( if everyone is honest, no one will do in average better than others with the same skills ), would not be and atractor and the insertion of some less honest demons would make sure that it would never get back to a 100% honesty scenario.
THAT is what I meant to by the term evolutionary stable. It has very little to be with a complete set of values and beliefs a society has and in fact I was deliberately simplistic and reduced the whole thing to honest about mana/ not honest about mana in a society filled with beings that come to be with potentially finite time set and with a high incentive to maximize their place in society when that place is decided mostly if not completely by mana output.
@Rift
Sorry for the long essay. I tend to be ... long winded when I start elaborating on my arguments
That said, what this chapter hints to is that Flamme was somehow aware that atleast some Demons could , not only conceive that someone could limit their output, but that could detect it by measuring any fluctuations in mana output and that is why she made Frieren to train her mana limiting skills in the way we see, like when we use some shoes so often we actually feel unconfortable when using others Alteast , that is what Frieren reasons during the battle ...
I feel that is other bit of this thing that fits badly with the whole "Demons can't/won't fake their mana output" thing, but I already posted about that elsewhere :/ But, yeah, if demons started being smarter about the mana level they show to other demons , their suposed society values would take a twist and a half, that is for sure
Sorry for the long essay. I tend to be ... long winded
when I start elaborating on my arguments That said, what this chapter hints to is that Flamme was somehow aware that atleast some Demons could , not only conceive that someone could limit their output, but that could detect it by measuring any fluctuations in mana output and that is why she made Frieren to train her mana limiting skills in the way we see, like when we use some shoes so often we actually feel unconfortable when using others
Alteast , that is what Frieren reasons during the battle ...I feel that is other bit of this thing that fits badly with the whole "Demons can't/won't fake their mana output" thing, but I already posted about that elsewhere :/ But, yeah, if demons started being smarter about the mana level they show to other demons , their suposed society values would take a twist and a half, that is for sure
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it makes me sad when she said she has lived for at least a millenium but well go frieren fuck her
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1000 years and she still don't look like a grown up. I wonder how long her lifespan is?
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