Stop NTR-ing yourself out of this NTR

[anoiniman]

[I've decided to make this a post separate to the manga’s mainthread, both in order to not clutter it up with this massive wall of text, but also, because I think this topic does indeed warrant a thread of its own (this is not the only manga which people surface level evaluate on this website) ; if I’m incorrect in this assessment, please forgive me]

I promised I would write this essay; it has come sooner than I have imagined.
People, me included, are little things living in their own small bubbles; and that sometimes causes them to take less than optimal conclusions in a lot of things, manga reading included.

I’m talking about this manga: [mangadex-link]
The story does indeed contain some NTR elements. But I fear, from the many 1 star reviews left behind; that many of you miss the point of this story, read the first chapter in a hurry (or not even that); and take some unwarranted conclusions.

This is not uncommon, people review-bombing something they don’t like at the most elementary level happens all over the internet. This tendency could be discussed at length; but here I will only explain why in this particular case, with this particular Manga, the reaction is incorrect.

In short: This manga is quite good, has interesting characters, a novel plot, and act as a testament of why the "pornography" tag is not equivalent to lack of artistic talent in any artistic work. I believe that those who pass-up this particular story are NTR-ing themselves of something quite good.

If the mere mention of the term NTR, is enough to make you tremble, maybe even with anger, allow me then to spoil you the ending of this manga so that nothing may surprise you, while coming into this work:

Spoiler: ”This Spoils the Ending”

The guy un-cucks himself in the end, you baka.
In fact this work is not ""actual"" NTR (as ne-torare means "taking away by the means of sleeping with) and the girl is not, in fact, taken away by the means of sex.

Though it may be said that the story has NTR elements it is not NTR in it-self.

Anyway, into the actual essay:
Title: Agawa-san, sluttiness, discipline, and cybernetics, an essay.

[Agawa-san is the name of the Female Lead Character of the work in question]
[When I say "anime" I mean anime culture in general as an umbrella term"]

This essay used to have a system of spoiler tags; the essay it self would only give minor spoilers; and there would be nested spoiler tags to hide the "big ones"; unfortunately my essay was too big and chonky for mangadex (there is a word limit for your posts) and so I had to use a google-doc, and spoiler tags don't work in there; therefore:
It is very spoily.

Spoiler: ”Essay”

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEBgZu9keVBv9C69TZUkFyJKU-worn4Ug_wlXOnVqlM/edit?usp=sharing

^^^^^^^
Essay

The story benefits from some reading in between the lines (you don't need to), but I really do believe that even a minimally attentive reading will make you understand what I am talking about.

The introduction is enticing,
the tension is nerve-wracking,
the resolution is sweet.

It has some issues, it is not a 10/10, but also certainly not a 1/10. (I personally gave it an 8)

So, before you shit on it, give it a read!
Thank you, and see you next time.

Spoiler: ”Final Note”

----SPACER----
Attention this spoils the ending

Spoiler: ”ENDING SPOILERS”

If this story were to end in NTR, it would be quite a different story, and in fact it would be a worse story, as the setting and the characters would feel quite out-of-place, un-resolved, and blueballed if this were to end with the MC fully cucked.

Yet I remain firm in the believe that there is out-there a story, maybe more than one, which features heart-breaking NTR, and yet, still can be said to be good.
I find this knee-jerk reaction to NTR in all forms to be extreme, and sometimes so intense, that will make you miss on good things, or even miss-identify others.

There is a lot of crap NTR, that is to be sure; there is NTR that is only made in order to pander to NTR fans, that is to be sure. But NTR itself can’t be said to be evil, before it is actually applied, either well, or poorly, to a story.

If you want a NTR kind of story, that I also found quite good, but ended in NTR, unlike this one:

Allow me to recommend the erotic (pornographic) anime: “Maid Ane”; it has a beautiful aesthetic, amazing pacing, some pretty cool themes, and non-standard directing.
It is not your standard NTR story. However, I must admit, maybe I just like dream-like weirdly directed hentai, with convoluted plots and fever-dreamish settings; and most people wouldn’t understand what I find beautiful in “Maid Ane”; therefore making this a craptastic recommendation.

My friends have always told me I had weird an esoteric tastes in the arts.
But perhaps you, dear reader, who has come this far, will be a fellow travel companion, in this weird travels.

You can find “Maid Ane” yourself, since I may not personally guide you to it.
xoxo, see ya.

P.S → No, I generally do not enjoy NTR; I am not a NTR fan/fetishist. But if you are, of course, more power to you, my friend.

 

[reu]

I am not a NTR fan/fetishist. But if you are, of course, more power to you, my friend.

Wrong, you're supposed to say

But if you are, may the heavenly hosts use your ass as a sheath and the flames of hellrisen armageddom dance among your pubes till the end of days frees you from your penance

 

[panzerkampfwagyu]

NTR is a based genre, so I feel find having those moralists miss out on things if they cannot contain their normie outrage.

 

[Hitspark]

With NTR you either Sympathize with the NTRist, the person getting NTRd or you're completely indifferent to either.

This is by design. Same logic that Tragedy works under, to try and make you feel one way or another. It's not meant for everyone and from what I've found the people really into it tend to be excessively edgy with few notable exceptions (and they have that reputation). So you've got a few walls to climb if you're gonna try to get people involved.

 

[reu]

NTR is a based genre, so I feel find having those moralists miss out on things if they cannot contain their normie outrage.

Pity there isn't a Aqua projectile vomiting rainbows react
Being as it is I'll do the next best thing and bonk you

 

[panzerkampfwagyu]

Pity there isn't a Aqua projectile vomiting rainbows react
Being as it is I'll do the next best thing and bonk you

LMAO, my fat makes the bonk unusable.

 

[Angelonius]

NTR is a based genre, so I feel find having those moralists miss out on things if they cannot contain their normie outrage.

In other words, you are a cuckold.

 

[panzerkampfwagyu]

In other words, you are a cuckold.

Different direction

 

[HoangDinh]

[I've decided to make this a post separate to the manga’s mainthread, both in order to not clutter it up with this massive wall of text, but also, because I think this topic does indeed warrant a thread of its own (this is not the only manga which people surface level evaluate on this website) ; if I’m incorrect in this assessment, please forgive me]

I promised I would write this essay; it has come sooner than I have imagined.
People, me included, are little things living in their own small bubbles; and that sometimes causes them to take less than optimal conclusions in a lot of things, manga reading included.

I’m talking about this manga: [mangadex-link]
The story does indeed contain some NTR elements. But I fear, from the many 1 star reviews left behind; that many of you miss the point of this story, read the first chapter in a hurry (or not even that); and take some unwarranted conclusions.

This is not uncommon, people review-bombing something they don’t like at the most elementary level happens all over the internet. This tendency could be discussed at length; but here I will only explain why in this particular case, with this particular Manga, the reaction is incorrect.

In short: This manga is quite good, has interesting characters, a novel plot, and act as a testament of why the "pornography" tag is not equivalent to lack of artistic talent in any artistic work. I believe that those who pass-up this particular story are NTR-ing themselves of something quite good.

If the mere mention of the term NTR, is enough to make you tremble, maybe even with anger, allow me then to spoil you the ending of this manga so that nothing may surprise you, while coming into this work:

Spoiler: ”This Spoils the Ending”

The guy un-cucks himself in the end, you baka.
In fact this work is not ""actual"" NTR (as ne-torare means "taking away by the means of sleeping with) and the girl is not, in fact, taken away by the means of sex.

Though it may be said that the story has NTR elements it is not NTR in it-self.

Anyway, into the actual essay:
Title: Agawa-san, sluttiness, discipline, and cybernetics, an essay.

[Agawa-san is the name of the Female Lead Character of the work in question]
[When I say "anime" I mean anime culture in general as an umbrella term"]

This essay used to have a system of spoiler tags; the essay it self would only give minor spoilers; and there would be nested spoiler tags to hide the "big ones"; unfortunately my essay was too big and chonky for mangadex (there is a word limit for your posts) and so I had to use a google-doc, and spoiler tags don't work in there; therefore:
It is very spoily.

Spoiler: ”Essay”

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEBgZu9keVBv9C69TZUkFyJKU-worn4Ug_wlXOnVqlM/edit?usp=sharing

^^^^^^^
Essay

The story benefits from some reading in between the lines (you don't need to), but I really do believe that even a minimally attentive reading will make you understand what I am talking about.

The introduction is enticing,
the tension is nerve-wracking,
the resolution is sweet.

It has some issues, it is not a 10/10, but also certainly not a 1/10. (I personally gave it an 8)

So, before you shit on it, give it a read!
Thank you, and see you next time.

Spoiler: ”Final Note”

----SPACER----
Attention this spoils the ending

Spoiler: ”ENDING SPOILERS”

If this story were to end in NTR, it would be quite a different story, and in fact it would be a worse story, as the setting and the characters would feel quite out-of-place, un-resolved, and blueballed if this were to end with the MC fully cucked.

Yet I remain firm in the believe that there is out-there a story, maybe more than one, which features heart-breaking NTR, and yet, still can be said to be good.
I find this knee-jerk reaction to NTR in all forms to be extreme, and sometimes so intense, that will make you miss on good things, or even miss-identify others.

There is a lot of crap NTR, that is to be sure; there is NTR that is only made in order to pander to NTR fans, that is to be sure. But NTR itself can’t be said to be evil, before it is actually applied, either well, or poorly, to a story.

If you want a NTR kind of story, that I also found quite good, but ended in NTR, unlike this one:

Allow me to recommend the erotic (pornographic) anime: “Maid Ane”; it has a beautiful aesthetic, amazing pacing, some pretty cool themes, and non-standard directing.
It is not your standard NTR story. However, I must admit, maybe I just like dream-like weirdly directed hentai, with convoluted plots and fever-dreamish settings; and most people wouldn’t understand what I find beautiful in “Maid Ane”; therefore making this a craptastic recommendation.

My friends have always told me I had weird an esoteric tastes in the arts.
But perhaps you, dear reader, who has come this far, will be a fellow travel companion, in this weird travels.

You can find “Maid Ane” yourself, since I may not personally guide you to it.
xoxo, see ya.

P.S → No, I generally do not enjoy NTR; I am not a NTR fan/fetishist. But if you are, of course, more power to you, my friend.

Thanks for recommending

 

[beep_repair]

With NTR you either Sympathize with the NTRist, the person getting NTRd or you're completely indifferent to either.

This is by design. Same logic that Tragedy works under, to try and make you feel one way or another. It's not meant for everyone and from what I've found the people really into it tend to be excessively edgy with few notable exceptions (and they have that reputation). So you've got a few walls to climb if you're gonna try to get people involved.

People say this a lot, but I don't think it's true in any broadly applicable sense.

In most cases and for most readers, fiction's narrative structure clearly defines the reader's point-of-view and, in the process, guides emotional identification w/in the story frame.

Take, for instance, this hypothetical netorare shizz:

1. Soggy sponge man wuvs the well-rounded woman so much. It's actually gross.
2. They good, basically, but you can tell she's only maybe 70% into it. Like 75 at most.
3. Sponge man worries about this, and we (the readers) get to "hear" his flaccid thoughts.
4. Suddenly, a leering beef arrives w/ beach hair & SLAMS round woman to the mattress pad!
5. Watching helplessly from w/in a sunken closet place, sponge man bums SO HARD & touches it.
6. Insert twelve pages in which, well... You know. But NASTY. Plus plenty more sad sponge think & fap.
7. Round woman trades up! And the drib of sponge tears poetically echoes the drib of sponge, well... You know.
8. ~ fin ~

Even w/o drawing pix, the POV is obv. We see only as the sponge sees. He am the camera. We can even feel his flaccid thought tubes via cloud bubblification.

Round woman is just kind of there, dangling abundantly at the far end of sponge man's intangible view-stalks. Sadwant.

And beef ain even that. He's just a tooth-ed leer seen 1nce upon entry ("hej bb"). Followed by a phat dong plunging roundness for twelve pages. The idea that a reader might identify with this is semi-ridic. Dude's barely dang human. If one were to average the total beef representation across all relevant pgs, the product would = a phat dong w/ 6 beach hairs & a tooth.

 

[beep_repair]

[content]

I’m talking about this manga: [mangadex-link]
The story does indeed contain some NTR elements. But I fear, from the many 1 star reviews left behind; that many of you miss the point of this story, read the first chapter in a hurry (or not even that); and take some unwarranted conclusions.

[content]

In short: This manga is quite good, has interesting characters, a novel plot, and act as a testament of why the "pornography" tag is not equivalent to lack of artistic talent in any artistic work. I believe that those who pass-up this particular story are NTR-ing themselves of something quite good.

[content+]

Seconded. It's decent. While the art verges on bad, the characters & story pick up the slack. They're far enough outside the romcom norm to be interesting, but not out of "appealing & relatable" bounds. Plus it's a very quick read.

That said, I don't think it rises much above decent. And even its curiosity value as a saleable NTR variant is slight. Not to rain on the cuck parade...

 

[Hitspark]

In most cases and for most readers, fiction's narrative structure clearly defines the reader's point-of-view and, in the process, guides emotional identification w/in the story frame.

This is verifiably untrue. You can plan the story, you push the intent but the reader is not subject to how you want them to feel. If someone sees a villain you're meant to hate but sympathizes with them instead, then they are acting counter to the intent of the writer.

The reader has to

A: Have an interest in sympathizing with your targeted character

And

B: Be WILLING to sympathize with them. You're going to have a harder time getting people to sympathize with a rapist than an underdog.

Something you also need to remember is that readers have morals too, they are not blankly reading things in a vacuum independent of their own personality, history and ethics.

Take, for instance, this hypothetical netorare shizz:

1. Feeble, spongy man loves well-rounded woman soooo much. It's actually gross.
2. They good, basically, but you can tell she's only maybe 70% into him. 75% at best.
3. Sponge man worries about this, and we (the readers) get to "hear" his brain thoughts.
4. Suddenly, a leering beef w/ beachy hair arrives & pins round woman to the conjugal bed!
5. Watching helplessly from within the sunken closet place, sponge man bums hard & touches it.
6. Insert twelve pages in which, well... You know. But NASTY. Plus lots more sad sponge think 'n' fap.
7. Round woman trades up! And the dribble of sponge tears matches the dribble of sponge, well... You know.
8. ~ fin ~

Even w/o pix, the POV is obv. We see only as the sponge sees! He am the camera. We even feel his brain thoughts via their narrative bubblification.

Round woman is just kind of there, dangling roundly at the far end of sponge man's intangible view-stalks. Want.

And beef isn't even that. He's just a tooth-ed leer seen once upon entry ("hej bb"). Followed by a fat dong plunging roundness for twelve pages. The idea that a reader might identify with this is semi ridic. He's barely dang human. If one were to average the total beef representation over all relevant pages, the product would = a fat dong w/ 3 hairs & a tooth.

Honestly it just sounds like you don't understand the concept of wish-fulfillment (not to be insulting). You wanna know why Isekai is a genre that keeps blowing up? Because even if the characters and supporting cast are shallow, the intent is for the READER to imagine themselves in that situation if they so desire. Their blankness is intentional because it's easier to imagine yourself in someone without traits counter to your own. It's the same reason SAO, Twilight and subsequently 50 Shades of Grey was a big hit over a decade back. They were designed that way intentionally.

NTR, by definition, is a Wish Fulfillment Genre. From the Alpha Dog wannabes to the actual and legitimate practitioners of cuckoldry, it has a very specific set of audiences in mind. It's made for them for a reason.

If you are not in that audience, you are not going to follow along with the tropes, themes and characters the story lays out.

If you are morally appalled by such acts (or as panzer called them moralists), you're going to sympathize with the guy getting NTRd just on principle. Maybe you're someone who just has a lot of empathy. God forbid you ever actually experience a similar set of cheating because you picked a hoe of a girlfriend or wife as well (especially since cheating is so excessively common nowadays), or even if you know someone who did go through something similar, also if you just so happen to have a certain set of beliefs about women then that's not gonna help you get into the genre any easier. You see where I'm going with this?

This is stuff your editor or writing friends/teacher will tell you to consider when making your story because other people have lives and values outside of your own and they will intersect with your work at some point.

In fact in "Nut Master" there is a dad and daughter having a falling out. The daughter is the one who gets all the attention, all the effort and backstory and all the screen time. You know who I ended up sympathizing with? The dad, because his circumstance was more relatable. Daughter is pissy because he has a job she doesn't like, well he still has to provide for his wife, the people who work under him, the city he lives in and his job is a constant reminder because it caused the death of someone close to him.

I wanted to kick his daughter in the throat. Clearly that was not the intent because ALL of that stuff isn't mentioned or even glossed over. I simply looked at him, his life , thought about it for a second and came to a realization that his kid was a prick. The daughter the author tried to make me sympathize with.

"They're barely human" only means something to you.

 

[beep_repair]

This is verifiably untrue. You can plan the story, you push the intent but the reader is not subject to how you want them to feel. If someone sees a villain you're meant to hate but sympathizes with them instead, then they are acting counter to the intent of the writer.

The reader has to

A: Have an interest in sympathizing with your targeted character

And

B: Be WILLING to sympathize with them. You're going to have a harder time getting people to sympathize with a rapist than an underdog.

Something you also need to remember is that readers have morals too, they are not blankly reading things in a vacuum independent of their own personality, history and ethics.



Honestly it just sounds like you don't understand the concept of wish-fulfillment (not to be insulting). You wanna know why Isekai is a genre that keeps blowing up? Because even if the characters and supporting cast are shallow, the intent is for the READER to imagine themselves in that situation if they so desire. Their blankness is intentional because it's easier to imagine yourself in someone without traits counter to your own. It's the same reason SAO, Twilight and subsequently 50 Shades of Grey was a big hit over a decade back. They were designed that way intentionally.

NTR, by definition, is a Wish Fulfillment Genre. From the Alpha Dog wannabes to the actual and legitimate practitioners of cuckoldry, it has a very specific set of audiences in mind. It's made for them for a reason.

If you are not in that audience, you are not going to follow along with the tropes, themes and characters the story lays out.

If you are morally appalled by such acts (or as panzer called them moralists), you're going to sympathize with the guy getting NTRd just on principle. Maybe you're someone who just has a lot of empathy. God forbid you ever actually experience a similar set of cheating because you picked a hoe of a girlfriend or wife as well (especially since cheating is so excessively common nowadays), or even if you know someone who did go through something similar, also if you just so happen to have a certain set of beliefs about women then that's not gonna help you get into the genre any easier. You see where I'm going with this?

This is stuff your editor or writing friends/teacher will tell you to consider when making your story because other people have lives and values outside of your own and they will intersect with your work at some point.

In fact in "Nut Master" there is a dad and daughter having a falling out. The daughter is the one who gets all the attention, all the effort and backstory and all the screen time. You know who I ended up sympathizing with? The dad, because his circumstance was more relatable. Daughter is pissy because he has a job she doesn't like, well he still has to provide for his wife, the people who work under him, the city he lives in and his job is a constant reminder because it caused the death of someone close to him.

I wanted to kick his daughter in the throat. Clearly that was not the intent because ALL of that stuff isn't mentioned or even glossed over. I simply looked at him, his life , thought about it for a second and came to a realization that his kid was a prick. The daughter the author tried to make me sympathize with.

"They're barely human" only means something to you.

I think we actually agree more than disagree. But I'm trying to say at least one thing with which I suspect you will disagree, and perhaps even find offensive (though I hope not).

The "untruth" you identify is, I believe, a product of poor communication on my part. While certainly untrue, it was not present in the argument I had intended to make.

Like you, I reject the notion that narrative intent compels or restricts reader interpretation. I agree with your claim that, "...the reader is not subject to how [the writer wants] them to feel."​

I attempted to imply this by hinging my prior post on the phrase, "In most cases and for most readers..." I meant by this that my argument is conditional. It depends on two underlying claims:​

1. All readers have total freedom to interpret any text an any manner.
   
   
2. Provided that they understand and enjoy them, most literate readers will in most cases adopt much of the POV framing and identification guidance of competently-constructed, character-driven, narrative texts.

We both accept the first condition, which I left unsaid. I touched on the second throughout my prior post, albeit in a jokey & half-assed way. You don't seem to have been convinced, but that's fine. There will obviously be many cases in which it doesn't apply at all.​

The potentially offensive part:

While I don't doubt the integrity of any specific individual account, I doubt that a substantial percentage of netorare fans identify with the seducer, not the cuck. I say this because netorare manga seems designed to invite and facilitate reader identification with the cuckold, and, I believe, social pressure strongly discourages any admission of such identification.​

Notes:

Cuckold-identification, which most netorare stories strongly encourage, is deeply shameful. It's shameful in netorare's fictional/erotic context, because the experience of shame lies at the heart of the kink. But it's also shameful, arguably more shameful, in society at large. That shame, I believe, restricts honest public discussion of the kink. On nhentai, for example, I may never (?) have seen a comment from an netorare fan that openly embraced being cuckolded and its intrinsic shame.​

​

Cuckolding is a common straight male kink, but you don't see much evidence of it in public culture (movies, TV, books, music, theater). Perhaps this is, in part, because it subverts what straight men are expected to be. The cuckold embodies passivity, weakness, submissiveness, incapacity and failure.​

Both cuckolding and netorare manga are fixated on the strong, sexually dominant, ultra-virile alpha male​

Good talking & non-alcoholic cheers 🍻

 

[Hitspark]

Here's the potentially offensive part:
While I do not doubt the integrity of any specific individual account, I strongly doubt and am therefore inclined to reject the broad validity of the suggestion that it's super-common for dedicated netorare fans identify with the seducer, not the cuck.

I'm not not accusing you of having said that, by the way. I know you haven't. I'm sure that some netorare fans really do identify with the ostensible villain. But also I believe that such claims are, in many cases, defensive denials of the truth.

That, of course, is unverifiable. It's merely my opinion, and perhaps I'm letting prejudice cloud fair judgement in attaching so much weight to it. But for what it's worth, I have put some thought into this subject in recent years.

If you'll bear with my rambling, here are a few of the ideas informing my perspective:

• Cuck-identification, which most netorare stories strongly encourage, is deeply shameful. It's shameful in netorare's fictional/erotic context, because the experience of shame lies at the heart of the kink. But it's also shameful, and arguably much more shameful, in the context of society at large. Public discussions of netorare material exemplify this. On nhentai, for example, I rarely see comments from netorare fans that openly embrace cuck kink and its intrinsic shame. Few users chime in to say, "it was so HOT when the husband saw his wife get ganged, and she said they were all better than him, then promised to be their cumslut preggo slave forever, and he cried." Shame profoundly restricts honest public discussion of the kink.

So I see what you're saying here but the problem is two fold. The first is that online, anonymity exists and thus allow people to share their opinions at large regardless of shamefulness. Panzer's comment should be proof enough of this, if that's not then the amount of expressive Lolicons on this site should be enough. When you're viewing people online, their anonymity already gives them the ability and the courage to speak publicly. You are more likely to get a raw opinion from a username than a face.

The second issue is that we know who the reader is identifying with or at least who they are intended to identify with. I've known some mean-spirited mangaka who use this trope and paint their detractors as the cuck (who is not always the hero). There is an implicit understanding there that the reader is supposed to side with the Netorare villain because to do otherwise is to be insulted directly by the author. In these instances I have seen people in large numbers root for the villain.

• Cuckoldry is a very, very common straight male kink. Much more so than men's public claims about their sexual tastes would ever lead one to suspect. This is plainly obvious in dedicated, semiprivate kink communities, with which I have some experience/familiarity. Personally, I suspect that the actual popularity of the kink and the shamefulness that keeps it super-secret are two sides of the same coin: cuckoldry radically subverts everything that men are expected to be. The cuckold embodies passivity, weakness, submissiveness, incapacity and failure. One might say that the cuckold rejects the entire construct of "masculinity". But even his rejection is passive, and therefore shameful. To sharpen the point, there is no way to publicly embrace the kink and "be a man" at the same time.
• In my experience, men drawn to cuckoldry are often given, in their public lives, to "traditional masculinity". The concept of the "strong, sexually dominant, ultra-virile alpha male" speaks to them. He is what they idealize and what they try (or at least want) to be. Men who don't value or otherwise care about traditional masculinity seem a bit less interested in the kink. With this in mind, it's unsurprising that both real-life cuckplay and cuck fetish material like netorare are so totally - almost obsessively - fixated on the "strong, sexually dominant, ultra-virile alpha male". The cuckold idolizes that guy. And likes watching him bang the tits off the old lady.

I freely admit, again, that none of the above is verifiable fact. It's a patchwork of thinly supported opinion, observation and conjecture. I offer it not because I think you or anyone else should find it convincing, but just to show where I'm coming from. And sure, maybe in the hope that someone out there will find it interesting.

I'd argue the same reason the kink has become so popular has little to do with it's subversion and more to do with it's base resting in what we know about the audience. I've seen it's readers talk, they're not thinking about true cuckoldry. They're spiteful and angry more often than not and we've seen this time and time again.

From some comments I found online perfectly demonstrating the conversation what I mean. When someone asked why a user liked NTR here was the response.

Because manga is self-insert fantasy for incels. There is no world in which a 10/10 girl would actually fall for and date some average(at best, usually below average) loser Yamada whose only defining trait is that he's """kind""".

NTR corrects this make-believe bullshit in a definitive fashion. The 10/10 girl ends up with a hot dude instead and the loser Yamada gets nothing. Is that not how it should be? Is that not fair for everyone involved?

The author of the comment expressly states exactly as we've discussed. He identifies with the villain, not because of any intrinsic quality to his own world view, but because he DISLIKES fantasy of the plain guy getting the girl. His comment is clearly spiteful of the IDEA itself.

And this behavior is the reason we see a lot of people distance themselves from the group.

I tend to avoid comments from people who enjoy NTR, as the ones I've seen are all just them acting like them liking it makes them better than people who don't, and seen overall toxic, and I skip to the end of any NTR story beforehand to see how it ends before I'll even consider going through the story itself, because if it has an ending I like, I'll be interested in seeing how it got there, but if it doesn't, then I know it's not worth my time.

Not judging those who likes NTR but get why others don't, but it'll never be for me.

A completely different person puts it properly. They avoid the fans being because they are often toxic or edgy, as I said they often are. These comments are from two different threads but one perfectly describes the other. Because that is often how many members choose portray themselves, the very first comment SHOWS this level of spite towards the status quo.

So it's fine that you have your thesis, but remember that this is a community of people who more often than not express themselves with incredible vitriol. These are not people saying "I have a kink and this is for me" and looking for a place to express it to avoid shame. Arguably it's MORE shameful to identify with the NTR protag than the guy getting cucked. These are people saying, openly, that it's just better and they're just better and that the fantasy is stupid and blah blah blah. These people are openly and expressly glorifying the villain because they identify with the way they see things need to be.

Like try to understand, you are arguing a fictitious personality style when the community of people in the real world who like this stuff is right there and they're more often than not, not even interested in real cuckoldry. They just don't like the Persona of the person getting cucked.

While you're free to argue and believe that it's deeper than we think I would simply say, if you've ever interacted with a number of these people, you'll see it's not. It's not Black And White, no, but it's nowhere near as deep as you're making it out to be.

 

[beep_repair]

So I see what you're saying here but the problem is two fold. The first is that online, anonymity exists and thus allow people to share their opinions at large regardless of shamefulness. Panzer's comment should be proof enough of this, if that's not then the amount of expressive Lolicons on this site should be enough. When you're viewing people online, their anonymity already gives them the ability and the courage to speak publicly. You are more likely to get a raw opinion from a username than a face.

The second issue is that we know who the reader is identifying with or at least who they are intended to identify with. I've known some mean-spirited mangaka who use this trope and paint their detractors as the cuck (who is not always the hero). There is an implicit understanding there that the reader is supposed to side with the Netorare villain because to do otherwise is to be insulted directly by the author. In these instances I have seen people in large numbers root for the villain.

I'd argue the same reason the kink has become so popular has little to do with it's subversion and more to do with it's base resting in what we know about the audience. I've seen it's readers talk, they're not thinking about true cuckoldry. They're spiteful and angry more often than not and we've seen this time and time again.

From some comments I found online perfectly demonstrating the conversation what I mean. When someone asked why a user liked NTR here was the response.

The author of the comment expressly states exactly as we've discussed. He identifies with the villain, not because of any intrinsic quality to his own world view, but because he DISLIKES fantasy of the plain guy getting the girl. His comment is clearly spiteful of the IDEA itself.

And this behavior is the reason we see a lot of people distance themselves from the group.


A completely different person puts it properly. They avoid the fans being because they are often toxic or edgy, as I said they often are. These comments are from two different threads but one perfectly describes the other. Because that is often how many members choose portray themselves, the very first comment SHOWS this level of spite towards the status quo.

So it's fine that you have your thesis, but remember that this is a community of people who more often than not express themselves with incredible vitriol. These are not people saying "I have a kink and this is for me" and looking for a place to express it to avoid shame. Arguably it's MORE shameful to identify with the NTR protag than the guy getting cucked. These are people saying, openly, that it's just better and they're just better and that the fantasy is stupid and blah blah blah. These people are openly and expressly glorifying the villain because they identify with the way they see things need to be.

Like try to understand, you are arguing a fictitious personality style when the community of people in the real world who like this stuff is right there and they're more often than not, not even interested in real cuckoldry. They just don't like the Persona of the person getting cucked.

While you're free to argue and believe that it's deeper than we think I would simply say, if you've ever interacted with a number of these people, you'll see it's not. It's not Black And White, no, but it's nowhere near as deep as you're making it out to be.

It's true that online anonymity is liberating. But I think you underestimate the degree to which male culture restricts men's behavior. The online lolicon gets to feel ballsy, brave, shocking and free. Just like a real man! Or at least a bad boy. This because masculinity permits men to take pride in all manifestations of heterosexual libido, giving fucks neither for offended moms (e.g. yours) nor busted shit (e.g. child porn laws & taboos). No cucks in the clubhouse tho. The cuckold, as was once commonly said, has been "unmanned", and to its exiles, male culture denies all pride. So of course cucks hide where uooohs boast, even online.

On reflection, I admit that I've overlooked netorare's potential appeal to hate readers. And yes, the genre does in many ways validate the worldviews espoused by incels and self-proclaimed realists. But would that, in itself, make fans of many incels? No matter which character he'd like to be, the netorare triangle itself would seem to salt the incel's existential wound. And ouchless affirmations exist elsewhere. I mean, relentlessly bullied people might find "truth" of a similar sort in bad end tales of sadistic abuse. But they don't line up to insist, "the Junko Furuta story is actually empowering... If you identify with the bullies."

The "realists" are key. They swarm like plague rats online, and I agree that they might identify with netorare's seducing/raping villains by default, without incel angst. Seeing as they're [checks notes] "lupo sigmoid stongmans who reject the boobie lies that coodle beta cucks." Hmmm... Okay, that last part was weird. But the stuff before still makes sense. At least it offers a plausible theory for both the pervasiveness of the villain-identification message and the seething simplicity of its messengers.
Hmmm...

I'll probably keep rolling my eyes when I see it, because that's kind of my thing. Hashing it out with you has been helpful tho. Thanks again.

 

[Hitspark]

A couple thoughts:

What you say about online anonymity is true, but you perhaps underestimate the extent to which male culture (masculinity) restricts male behavior. The outspoken online lolicon gets to feel ballsy, brave, shocking and free - just like a real man, or at least a bad boy. Masculinity allows men to take pride in displays of straight desire, even when they break taboos. But there's no room in masculinity for the cuck fetishist. The cuckold is, as has often been often said, "unmanned". No form of pride is available to such a person. It's therefore no surprise that cuckolds hide where lolicons boast, even online.

As you suggest, I've overlooked netorare's possible appeal to hate readers. Incels and "realists" would likely find their views validated by the genre. It's hard to believe, however, that many incels would become netorare fans as a result. Relentlessly bullied people might feel similarly validated by tales of sadistic abuse. But I doubt that many seek out such stories to vicariously enjoy bullying others. "Realists" are different matter. They might naturally tend to identify with netorare's seducing/raping villains, seeing them as strong men unbound by the lies that comfort yet imprison the weak (e.g. cucks).

Fortunately, we can test that theory. Some quick googling reveals

Reddit Has several Cuck-related subreddits. One of which has 1.3 million members.

One subreddit asks if they're ashamed or afraid of admitting it.

The responses are, majoratively, that they are not ashamed and some even show pride in their cuckoldry, for example this one comment.

I will always tell my partner and help her every step of the way I even have bull friends who are std free so she is safe.

The google search for "Cuckold Forum" generates 9,040,000 results.

One website even lists that Cuckolding and NTR aren't really the same thing as one is done behind the back of their partner and that true cuckolding requires permission and the person getting cucked enjoys it.

Essentially what is being brought up here is that cucks will cuck and they don't seem too afraid to admit it online and some seem very open about it in the Real World, too. Your position that NTRs greatest appeal is to cucks does not seem to add up when you're actually talking to cucks because it, apparently by it's definition, is antithetical to their position and kink. It seems to me that the answer to the question of "who does NTR appeal to" is the same as the people you're trying to say are a minority.

 

[Scinded]

People say this a lot, but I don't think it's true in any broadly applicable sense.

In most cases and for most readers, fiction's narrative structure clearly defines the reader's point-of-view and, in the process, guides emotional identification w/in the story frame.

Take, for instance, this hypothetical netorare shizz:

1. Soggy sponge man wuvs the well-rounded woman so much. It's actually gross.
2. They good, basically, but you can tell she's only maybe 70% into it. Like 75 at most.
3. Sponge man worries about this, and we (the readers) get to "hear" his flaccid thoughts.
4. Suddenly, a leering beef arrives w/ beach hair & SLAMS round woman to the mattress pad!
5. Watching helplessly from w/in a sunken closet place, sponge man bums SO HARD & touches it.
6. Insert twelve pages in which, well... You know. But NASTY. Plus plenty more sad sponge think & fap.
7. Round woman trades up! And the drib of sponge tears poetically echoes the drib of sponge, well... You know.
8. ~ fin ~

Even w/o drawing pix, the POV is obv. We see only as the sponge sees. He am the camera. We can even feel his flaccid thought tubes via cloud bubblification.

Round woman is just kind of there, dangling abundantly at the far end of sponge man's intangible view-stalks. Sadwant.

And beef ain even that. He's just a tooth-ed leer seen 1nce upon entry ("hej bb"). Followed by a phat dong plunging roundness for twelve pages. The idea that a reader might identify with this is semi-ridic. Dude's barely dang human. If one were to average the total beef representation across all relevant pgs, the product would = a phat dong w/ 6 beach hairs & a tooth.

You generalize a lot. The world isn't all black and white like you think. I like NTR in small doses when it has a statement to make, whether that statement is delivered by a balding fat dude or an archetype of one thing or the other, makes no difference to me as long as it makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Not everybody who enjoys NTR is a cuck, incel, or whatever. Some enjoy it as fiction which is what it is supposed to be.

 

[beep_repair]

Fortunately, we can test that theory. Some quick googling reveals

Reddit Has several Cuck-related subreddits. One of which has 1.3 million members.

One subreddit asks if they're ashamed or afraid of admitting it.

The responses are, majoratively, that they are not ashamed and some even show pride in their cuckoldry, for example this one comment.



The google search for "Cuckold Forum" generates 9,040,000 results.

One website even lists that Cuckolding and NTR aren't really the same thing as one is done behind the back of their partner and that true cuckolding requires permission and the person getting cucked enjoys it.

Essentially what is being brought up here is that cucks will cuck and they don't seem too afraid to admit it online and some seem very open about it in the Real World, too. Your position that NTRs greatest appeal is to cucks does not seem to add up when you're actually talking to cucks because it, apparently by it's definition, is antithetical to their position and kink. It seems to me that the answer to the question of "who does NTR appeal to" is the same as the people you're trying to say are a minority.

I would have predicted exactly that. No offense, but it's not germane to our conversation

A kink forum is a "safe space", as they say. It's the online equivalent of the IRL swing & kink communities I mentioned earlier, when I said more-or-less what you just did. I'm not a veteran expert, but from what I've seen, no one is ashamed of cuck fetishism in good kink communities & clubs. They're explicitly designed to be accepting and policed to enforce it.

Our conversation takes place a thousand miles from that. It revolves around a common theme in user comments attached to sexually explicit, straight male-targeted netorare material on public manga sharing sites. These are not safe spaces designed & policed to guarantee broad kink inclusion. They're at best gently moderated "boy's club" spaces occupied almost entirely by males, many of them very young, and ruled almost entirely by masculine vales/codes.

The truth of this is made clear by your research. People into cuckolding are out there somewhere. Tons of them, in fact. Some of them probably read netorare smut on nhentai & MangaDex, at least occasionally. But they're not visible at all. Why? Perhaps because cuck-identification is not "normal" in these places, and it's not welcome. Attached to every serving of netorare smut are identical piles of raging, hateful keyboard battery from users who feel totally free to announce their utter, violent loathing of cuckolding and anyone who might like it. The only opposition comes not from people into cuckolding, but from those who insist - as we've been discussing - that NTR is great if you hate the cuckolded guy and want to be the seducer who steals his girl.

You couldn't design a less welcoming place for people into cuckolding if you tried.

Again, I mean no offense, but this conversation does have a context and focus. I mentioned kink communities earlier to make clear that they're very different from what we're talking about - and that the differences may reflect structural factors we should consider in discussing this stuff. You can't reduce it to "different things are different so I win!"

 

[beep_repair]

You generalize a lot. The world isn't all black and white like you think. I like NTR in small doses when it has a statement to make, whether that statement is delivered by a balding fat dude or an archetype of one thing or the other, makes no difference to me as long as it makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Not everybody who enjoys NTR is a cuck, incel, or whatever. Some enjoy it as fiction which is what it is supposed to be.

I'm in pretty much the same place as you.
I'm not fan of netorare, in fact I often hate it. But I still read some here & there.
Sometimes I like it. Good stories and art are good.

But the running conversation went like this this:

hitspark - "you can identify with either guy depending on what you want"
beepre - "people always say that, but the pred-ID dudes are fronting"
hitspark - [offers support for some pred-ID dudes being actually not fronting]
beepre - "that's true but they still are mostly becuz so many pred-ID and..." [wanders off to jupiter]
hitspark - [offers more support and finally reveals that evil dicks exist]
beepre - "i did not know. evil dicks maybe do pred-ID" [secretly thinks the same as before mostly]
hitspark - [offers stats extracted from bottom]
beepre - [loses shit]

^ That's why incels and realists and cucks came up.
hitspark was trying to tell me who they think really does ID the pred, and I was trying to stretch my head around it the long way.

 

[Hitspark]

I would have predicted exactly that. No offense, but it's not germane to our conversation

A dedicated kink community is a "safe space", as they say. It's the online equivalent of the IRL swing & kink communities I mentioned earlier, when I said more-or-less what you just did. I'm not a veteran expert, but from what I've seen, no one is ashamed of cuck fetishism in good kink scenes & clubs. They're explicitly designed to be accepting and policed to enforce it.

Our conversation takes place a thousand miles from that. It revolves around a common theme in user comments attached to sexually explicit, straight male-targeted netorare material on public manga sharing sites. These are not safe spaces designed & policed to guarantee broad kink inclusion. They're at best gently moderated "boy's club" spaces occupied almost entirely by males, many of them very young, and ruled almost entirely by masculine vales/codes.

The truth of this is made clear by your research. People into cuck kink are out there. Tons of them. Some of them certainly read netorare smut on nhentai & MangaDex, etc. But they're not saying shit. Why? Because cuck-identification is not "normal" in these places, and it's not welcome. Attached to every single serving of netorare smut are identical piles of raging, hateful keyboard battery from users who feel totally free to announce their utter, violent LOATHING of cuckoldry and anyone who might like it. The only opposition comes not from cuck fans, but from those who insist - as we've been discussing - that NTR is great if you hate the cuck but want to be the bull.

You couldn't design a less welcoming place for actual cuck fetishists if you tried.

Again, I mean no offense, but this conversation does have a context and focus. I mentioned kink communities earlier to make clear that they're very different from what we're talking about - and that the differences may reflect structural factors we should consider in discussing this stuff. You can't reduce it to "different things are different so I win!"

OK I get what you're saying but it's on the assumption that these sites are "safe" when that's not really a thing online, right? In fact, nothing is stopping me from making a fake account with a fake email and so on to get onto these sites and star lambasting these users. The worst they do is ban the account and if I have a VPN or Proxy they can't even ban me properly, so there is no real safety here so it still takes a level of courage to post on these sites. The only barrier is the time I'm willing to put in to make my stance known or mess with some people.

In fact the opposite is also true. I could easily make a throwaway account and be as brave as I want because it doesn't matter what's said, no one knows who is on the fake account but me. So what's the fear there, if any?

There's also the issue in that, as mentioned before, NTR doesn't seem to overlap with Cuckoldry since NTR is behind the back while cuckoldry is with permission and enjoyment. Right? We can't forget that distinction, that cuckoldry doesn't believe in behind the back sexual exploits unless permission is gained first and NTR generally doesn't ask. So it doesn't really even appeal to true cuckolds on a major level. So while yes, there are people arguing in those threads (the moralists as were referred to earlier) these places shouldn't likely be the kind of thing to scare away legitimate cucks because they're probably not there in the first place. Your core audience might be more closely related to rape fetishists or cheating fetishists and the aforementioned hate readers and so on, rather than legitimate cucks. It's a weird dynamic that's for sure.