Tag labelling system

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Mentioned this here, thought I could get further discussion of the idea in a new thread.

Background:

Spoiler

while talking about possible implementation of new tags, a question arise from the discussion of "how can people know what the tags are for, especially with some being either not-obvious or is being ruled under certain constrictions?" I proposed the idea of a labelling system to talk about the tags on their own.

Basically it's like HH where you just drag your mouse over the tags and you can see the description as a small pop-up. Yeah this feature is functionless on mobile but hey desktop users can be pleased.

 

[MadeOfMagicAndWires]

This is technically already implemented to some extend (example) it's just little known.

Some tags still need to be given a proper description though, and I don't know who has modification rights (whether it's all contributors or just staff).

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

What about a bit of a rewrite for the ones that need updating? Any suggestions?

 

[MadeOfMagicAndWires]

Most of them seem to be copied from anime planet so might as well stick with that as a base.

 

[Oeconomist]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN—

I think that, if good arguments are presented, then staff would be quite open to specific changes to specific descriptions or to specific wording for missing descriptions; but that an abstract proposal to begin a general programme of reform is going to be ignored or explicitly rejected.

 

[Vofuro]

So essentially, you can click on them, but the information is missing? I always figured there wasn't any description of the tags per se. Welp, that explains a lot.

I think it would be a great idea to add that information, because as it is, I'm still confused on some tags. Namely the loli one. It's used here whenever a little girl is in the main cast, regardless whether it's sexual or not, whereas in MangaUpdates it's usually loli when sexualised. For newbys to manga it would be great, too.

So I think both are a great idea: Adding in the information on the tags themselves, and adding a shorter explanation when you hover over them with your mouse, which about half the people here will see (about half use mobile, apparently).
Also, I think it's not that hard to implement? It's just hover-over text. The other one is already there, after all.

 

[Teasday]

Should probably do this, sure. Not all tags have a description or definition yet though.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@AbyssalMonkey

The fact that it was isekai had made no bearing on the story until this recently released chapter 15. People forgot that it was isekai. Does such a series deserve to actually be tagged as such?

That's just bad writing, it's not the tag's fault that a bad isekai is still isekai.

The space-time travel thing, yeah arguably still isekai but not what the community normally associates as isekai. So for simplicity's sake, let's just say they're not isekai but rather sci-fi. We actually already had a discussion about this.

Also, new idea. Regular readers don't need to know how to implement tags, only uploaders do. Rather than the description having both the explanation of the tag as well as rules of implementation, why not make it so that you can only see the latter if you're trying to upload? That way it'll cover less space. It will also hopefully reduce mistagging cause the rules of implementation are more in-your-face.

BTW can someone collect all the tags that are missing description or arguable outdated?

 

[Vofuro]

Alright, I'll just put a list in here of all the stuff you can filter:

Content: Echhi, Gore, Sexual Violence, Smut

Format: 4-Koma, Adaptation, Anthology, Award Winning, Doujinshi, Fan Colored, Full Color, Long Strip, Official Colored, Oneshot, User Created, Web Comic

Genre: Action, Adventure, Comedy, Psychological, Crime, Drama, Fantasy, Historical, Horror, Isekai, Magical Girls, Mecha, Medical, Mystery, Philosophical, Shounen Ai, Yaoi, Romance, Sci-Fi, Shoujo Ai, Slice of Life, Sports, Superhero, Trhiller, Tragedy, Wuxia, Yuri

Theme: Loli, Reincarnation, Magic, Animals, Aliens, Cooking, Crossdressing, Delinquents, Demons, Genderswap, Ghosts, Gyaru, Harem, Mafia, Incest, Martial Arts, Monster Girls, Military, Monsters, Post-Apocalyptic, Police, Office Workers, Music, Ninja, Supernatural, Shota, School Life, Samurai, Reverse Harem, Zombies, Virtual Reality, Video Games, Vampires, Traditional Games, Time Travel, Survival

Alright, now to check it through if I missed something, will add an edit if I did. So, no, checked twice, shouldn't have missed anything.

 

[Vofuro]

Stuff that's missing a description:
Sexual Violence, Gore

Long Strip, Adaptation, Web Comic, Full Color, Official Colored,Anthology, Award Winning, Fan Colored, Oneshot, User Created

Sports, Tragedy, Crime, Superhero, Philosophical, Thriller, Wuxia, Isekai, Magical Girls, Shounen Ai, Slice of Life, Shoujo Ai

I'll only look at the following themes: Loli, Reincarnation,Genderswap, Gyaru, Monster Girls, Shota, Reverse Harem and Harem, Traditional Games. The rest should be self-explanatory, honestly. Missing are:
Genderswap, Gyaru, Monster Girls, Shota, Loli, Traditional Games, Reincarnation
Reverse Harem and Harem: Reverse Harem doesn't have a description, the Harem description doesn't define the gender and would cover Reverse Harem, actually.

I also want to point out that the descriptions there are, most of them are from Anime-Planet. There were about two that weren't from there, actually.

The question now is: Who defines this stuff? Some of them really, really need a description, because even I don't know what's Gyaru and Wuxia are actually supposed to be. Loli and Shota obviously need to be defined, as well as Isekai. Would it be fine if people here just suggested descriptions and the devs add them, if they fit?

 

[MadeOfMagicAndWires]

I scraped this so the output is a bit weird but here's the list

Spoiler

https://mangadex.org/genre/04 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/11 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/16 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/21 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/24 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/25 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/28 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/30 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/31 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/33 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/35 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/36 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/40 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/41 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/42 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/43 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/44 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/45 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/46 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/47 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/48 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/49 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/50 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/51 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/52 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/53 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/54 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/55 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/56 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/57 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/58 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/59 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/60 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/61 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/62 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/63 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/64 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/65 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/66 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/67 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/68 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/69 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/70 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/71 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/72 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/73 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/74 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/75 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/76 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/77 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/78 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/79 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/80 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/81 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/82 has no description
https://mangadex.org/genre/83 has no description

This should be accurate, unless someone has added placeholder descriptions

edit:
at least Mafia has a placeholder one, so human eyes are probably required.
The ones mentioned above are all definitely missing descriptions though.

Also @Mods pls don't ban ip.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

There's a mafia tag?!

Also I think we can discuss possible new descriptions and/or update them since the premise of the tag is indeed about tag labels, which arguably extend to the description. I say let this be a place to discuss new tag descriptions instead of fifty new threads for every individual tag.

Anyways, imo, we need a clear line between shoujo-ai and yuri and the yaoi counterparts if we do want to enforce a stricter tagging policy, which would bring up the old argument about what counts as what. I suggest we work on that first. And now onto another discussion:

@AbyssalMonkey

(I'll discuss the double standard thing another day cause it's already late for me.)

I strongly disagree. ...

Yeah fair enough. I guess we can just make it so that tag descriptions will be the only thing that pops up and implementation will appear when you click on the tags themselves.

Off-topic, but I'll indulge. Isekai is outdated. ...

Ngl I really like your argument, but I'd have to disagree. This doesn't follow the traditional definition of isekai. The thing about updating tag definitions is that everyone has to agree with it.

Why am I so pessimistic? trust me I've tried to change their minds but the idea didn't catch on. That said, I think we can adopt my new definition of isekai if you're trying to scratch that itch.

"Anything that includes a character being suddenly transported into a foreign world, no matter the method, can be classified as isekai"

This is the new definition I proposed for isekai to be able to encompass sci-fi as well. This can be opened up as the following:

1. MC must be suddenly transported. We can assume that this is done by a single action or short chain of events such as: dying and transported, walking into a portal, etc; and not through multiple, intuitively long series of actions such as: using a spaceship to travel to another planet, etc.
2. Into a foreign world. This omits the sci-fi themes that features but not exclusively includes:
-Using a teleporter to instantly move to a chosen location,
-Time travel paradoxes where something plot-relevant but not universally-dramatic changes,
-Traveling to the past where its history is already recorded (this implies that non-recorded history is foreign and thus classifiable as isekai)
-Traveling to a predictable or predicted future (this implies that if said future has been predicted using a plot device or sufficiently foreshadow as it is not meant to be the introduction of the story, those are not isekai as it is no longer foreign) (it also implies that MC would have to time travel to a distant future where it is no longer predictable by modern day predictions) (and once again it implies that transportation must occur at the introduction of the story as any good isekai would usually do and omits the possibility that transportation during the middle or the ending would be isekai)
-etc.

"Suddenly transported"

-A single action done on/by the MC to be transported
-A series of intuitively short series of actions done on/by the MC to be transported

"Foreign"

-A "world" that MC has either no previous knowledge of or cannot be predicted using common sense by the readers; but imagination is fair game.

"World"

-A home.
--"Previous world" can be defined as "a comfortable place to live for the MC"
--"Foreign world" can be defined as "a place where MC is out of their elements"

Still, I doubt people will like it. I mean, America is still using inches although metric is clearly superior cough cough so people like things that are already familiar to them.

Sorry for a copypaste dump, spoiler tag don't work if quote tag is inside it so I can't hide everything.

 

[Vofuro]

Actually, if you add in the video game bit most isekai tend to have, with levels and the like, I'm all for your definition of isekai. Otherwise it's Reincarnation for me. As it is, I can think of some historical time travel manga that really aren't isekai but would fit the bill. Red River I believe?
Otherwise, totally agree that some isekai can be sci-fi, even if I've only seen one of those.

Also, yes, we've got a mafia tag. I personally find the monster girls one highly specific and amusing as well.

 

[kaza_hesto]

Kissing can definitely be in "shounen ai". Last time this was brought up, someone suggested general BL and GL tags with additional tags for the content, like smut or whatever. I still think that makes the most sense here, reduces subjectivity somewhat, while for BL at least also aligning better with how the terms are used in Japan.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Well this is way past my bedtime. Eh I can wake up at 8:30 am this morning anyway.

@Vofuro I guess video games and otome can be spliced into the definition. I made this while focusing on sci-fi specifically, also the otome subgenre wasn't popular yet at the time.

Well first, let's dissect all the possible isekais:
1. Reincarnation
2. Summoning
3. Fantasy portal
4*. Video game
^{* Otome fits into video game isekai}
5*. Sci-fi time travel or teleporter
^{* Arguably possible but not popular}

1, 2, 3, and 5 can fit into my definition so all that leaves is for video game isekai to fit.

With video games, there's an argument that it's no longer an "unfamiliar world" thus breaking my definition.

Spoiler

If anyone pointed that out during that debate thread I could've lost.

However, I'm arguing against that. Being transported to a video game world you are familiar with brings with it an unexpected layer or reality where certain things exist/disappear and all NPCs are intelligent, etc. Thus it's not exactly 100% familiar due to unforseeable or unpredictable characteristics. I'd argue that video game isekai can also count into my definition.

If all else fail you can always implement the "video game isekai exception" rule anyways so we don't need to worry bout this.

@AbyssalMonkey Yeah, I agree that it's double standards but is it really a problem? Just the other day on the Trigger Warning thread there was a point made about how while gore can just show the slightest hint of guts to be tagged as such, however, the possible physical abuse tag have strict rules preventing comedy and shounen from being tagged with it. This is a clear example of double standards but clearly, in the respective context of their own, it's the best way for it to work.

That said, school-life and isekai should be judged differently as they are different genres anyways.

@kaza_hesto I like this idea. Just have one of each own to make things less confusing.

 

[MadeOfMagicAndWires]

@AbyssalMonkey

Removing the Isekai tag because there are "Fantasy" and "Reincarnation" tags is a terrible idea. It removes users ability to block (or specifically search for) Isekai titles without also removing (adding) swathes of unrelated titles they might (not) want to include.

Additionally, Isekai is pretty much a (sub)genre at this point (god help us all) and genres are a lot more malleable than other tags such as say, "werewolves". Titles don't have to include all of a genre's conventions to still be a part of one, and the reverse is also true: a title can include all of a genres hallmark elements and still fit more squarely in another one.

This is the problem you're running into but that is not to say genres have no use or should be removed. Reincarnation itself might not play a big role in the example you mention, but it sure has all the pulpy, JRPG inspired, power fantasy and wish fulfilment hallmarks of the Isekai genre. We're not working with a checklist here and exclusion based on a slight twist is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Vofuro]

Also, just wanting to point out that because isekai IS evolving and getting new sub-genres (like that fun otome thingie), we might want to keep the explanation simple.

Also, how about adding that isekai uses the knowledge of the past "life"? That and that there's usually video game or fantasy elements. So the definition could be something like:

In an isekai one or multiple persons are unexpectedly transported or reincarnated into another, foreign world. The protagonist remembers his past life and uses his advanced knowledge to progress in this new environment, which typically resembles either videogames or fantasy.


yes? no?

 

[BestBoy]

@Vofuro Biggest problem I see with that are isekai manga that have MCs that don't use knowledge from their past life. Saihate no Paladin being the big one. It has little relevance on the plot outside of the MC occasionally having bad memories stoked by events around him. There's also Sekkaku Cheat and Wrong Way to Use Healing Magic. In those being transported is just a way to give the characters their powers. They don't use knowledge of their original world at all. There's even isekai where the character's transportation isn't unexpected. I think keeping the definition as general as possible is best. An isekai is a manga where the characters are brought to a new world.

We're going to run into similar problems with Gyaru as it's an incredibly broad fashion movement. https://gyaru-109.fandom.com/wiki/The_Gyaru_Wikia

 

[Vofuro]

@BestBoy I really don't count my beloved Paladin manga as an isekai. It's like someone here said that a horror manga starting in school isn't school life. I'm not even sure whether the MC has much memories, if any at all from his past life. (Please don't spoiler me if that changes - I still want to read the books in the near future! You can still add the tag if that changes, too)
(I don't know the other isekai, sorry, even though I like isekai)

According to that definition, Red River should be isekai. And I'm not sure I'm happy with that, as that's some old smut time travel manga that's nothing like the isekai of today. I mean, we could add self-awareness of their isekai-status for the protagonists, but that's only the case for the newer generation of isekai.
Do those isekai protagonists you mentioned not use any of their knowledge at all? Not even references to the contemporary world? Because isekai, to me, is a blend of both worlds. Be it through references or comparisions or actual using knowledge for progression, there's always still the past life somewhere in it.

Oh right, also about the shounen ai/yaoi and shoujo ai/yuri debatte. I'm actually against throwing them together and adding the smut tag, as a) additional tag chaos and b) to me smut means lots of sex. That's not the case for yaoi/yuri. Shounen Ai/Shojo Ai is about the romance - Yaoi and Yuri throw in at least one sex scene, but that's it. If there's like one sex scene per chapter, it's usually smut to the yaoi/yuri as well. People look for different stuff, so it might be better to simply clarify the tags here.

Edit: Also. I forgot Gyaru. Now I remember that I once googled it. I... still do not understand what it means. And I'm not sure why it's relevant to either plot or story... guess I'll leave the description attempt to someone else in that area.

 

[BestBoy]

@Vofuro To me, as long as it fulfills the Japanese translation of the word, it counts. I don't think the analogy to that horror (I thought it was a battle fantasy manga) manga is equivalent at all. That example is much more similar to an isekai that starts out in the new world and sends the characters back to their original world. What makes an isekai is the transportation to the new world and the new world itself so as long as the characters are in it, I feel it always applies. There's always that question of, "Will they start looking for a way to return?" that is integral to isekai.

Do those isekai protagonists you mentioned not use any of their knowledge at all? Not even references to the contemporary world?

As far as I can remember, they don't. Their knowledge isn't necessary to their roles in their respective stories. In Sekkaku cheat, the MC uses an overpowered healing skill to make potions to sell so he can visit brothels. In Wrong Way to Use Healing Magic, the main characters are heroes in a war. Their knowledge from their time as high school students doesn't apply at all. I suppose you could argue that their overall lack of prejudice towards certain races is a reference to contemporary sensibilities, but it's never mentioned outright and nothing seems on the nose about it.

Gyaru is a rejection of the traditional Japanese woman so characters that are gyaru often have different opinions regarding traditional Japanese values. That's kind of how it's relevant to plot or story.