Tensei Oujo to Tensai Reijou no Mahou Kakumei - Ch. 48

[tuatara1]

I've made my frustrations this arc pretty clear in the comments on previous chapters, so I won't bother rehashing all of that again. Still, I'll never be able to see this fight as romantic. It only makes me sad.

 

[DLRevan]

It does paint an interesting contrast where we as readers want to (and are arguably meant to) sympathize with Anis, because (in brief) she's a magic-less heretical magitec user who abdicated her responsibility, saw her brother burdened, then corrupted, then destroyed by said responsibility, and then Anis is destined for misery as a puppet queen/heir maker, only to be saved by the love of her life who makes the choice to destroy her own humanity and gain the Crown as a demigod immortal.

But as you said - realistically, the system and setting necessitates ruthless attainment and possession of power, and the monopoly of force held by the noble class means any tension thst escalates into actual violence would see widespread suffering and destruction of the commonfolk who are powerless in the face of the ruling class who have every interest in not giving up their power.

In the long term, things can be changed. Arguably, Euphie becoming immortal makes that easier, actually - except the whole "losing her humanity/sense of perspective" thing. If Anis can keep her grounded while she's alive, that's one thing, but once Anis dies, Euphie's tetherless and growing more alien by the day, making the dream of Anis' kind of a nonstarter because the improvements that would help her wouldn't take root in Anis' lifetime, and once thet do, Euphie might have forgotten Anis altogether. The only solace is Anis doesn't live a shit life chained to some noble son consort making heirs while having no power, being detested by the nobility as a magic-less royal.

Knowing what I do of the LN plot, some of this is addressed (or being addressed), but at this point in time of the manga's story, it's a weird moment of "solving some immediate personal problems while kicking the can of macro issues down the road and hoping to sort it out later".

I get why Euphie and Anis fought, their reasons for doing so, and why Euphie winning was best for Anis and the country at large (maybe not necessarily the nobles who like having all the power). But the implications of the Spirit Contract on Euphie's connection to humanity, while Anis remains very much mortal, is a powder keg that poses big issues for their vision of the kingdom's future and how it gets implemented in the short and long (and very long) term.

It may be that all this is further covered by the LN. But I'm just baffled by the lack of awareness of everything you've said, despite that it's mostly been spelled out previously.

We know the nobles have a tight grip on power, religious, economic and military. We know the royals rule by the same, and marriage alliances within a very tight circle to ensure the continuation of that is extremely important. We know that Euphie becoming a contractor both gives her the previously missing legitimacy in anyone but Annis, while becoming immortal will allow her to take the time to change the nation.

We also know that this isn't a perfect solution, the characters have talked enough about the problem of becoming immortal as well.

I think this is all just logical. It's not hard to draw these conclusions. Furthermore, the manga has practically spelled this out. IT hasn't sprinted past explaining all this unlike some adaptations. Yet, it seems the preferred solution to some is still to just make some royal decree or they just shouldn't fight. God forbid the characters disagree with each other over imperfect but necessary and practical course of action.

 

[DLRevan]

Anis wants to use technology to spread magic among the commoners. This will theoretically allow commoners to compete with Nobles for magic power. However, the real-world parallels make me skeptical. Industrialization made people's lives better in many ways (food security, some relaxing of rigid castes) but it also made people's lives much worse in other ways (longer work hours, toxic materials, environmental destruction, more devasting wars). And while it allowed a small set of commoners to change class and become aristocrats, the great majority of people living under industrial societies are still poor.

The basic standard of living is vastly increased since the start of the industrial revolution. This is way too hyperfocused on the potential downsides. A perfect society isn't possible with humans involved anyway, that isn't the goal.

Today people have better health, more freedoms, more rights, greater work opportunities, more conveniences, less privation. We are able to support enormously larger populations, and more people are able to socially and politically influence the world they live in. All this is true, even taking into account the fact that half the world lives in poverty, income inequality is rising and pollution is becoming an unmanageable issue.

Sure, if they don't change and move forward, they'll probably avoid devastating world wars, pollution, dominance of new elite classes and mass social decay. I'm sure they'll be better off dying young, having no choice of jobs, working for little or no pay, always reliant on their betters for the simplest of amenities, subject to arbitrary incarceration or even execution, and where societal collapse is one hereditary mad or moronic monarch away. Not all of these are likely for every person living in a medieval society, but compared to a modern one?

But it's not just downsides vs downsides either. It's so easy to say, oh we're inundated with things like stress from long work hours or our health suffers from toxic materials. Yet the global life expectancy has literally doubled since the industrial revolution started. When you look at it objectively and quantifiably, life is measurably better. Just because its not a perfect world where you can literally pick and choose from a plethora of major issues doesn't take away from the fact that we're better off. And I emphasize that word, "fact". Quantifiable, proven, independent of your personal beliefs and interpretation or mine.

 

[UdenEmpati]

It may be that all this is further covered by the LN. But I'm just baffled by the lack of awareness of everything you've said, despite that it's mostly been spelled out previously.

We know the nobles have a tight grip on power, religious, economic and military. We know the royals rule by the same, and marriage alliances within a very tight circle to ensure the continuation of that is extremely important. We know that Euphie becoming a contractor both gives her the previously missing legitimacy in anyone but Annis, while becoming immortal will allow her to take the time to change the nation.

We also know that this isn't a perfect solution, the characters have talked enough about the problem of becoming immortal as well.

I think this is all just logical. It's not hard to draw these conclusions. Furthermore, the manga has practically spelled this out. IT hasn't sprinted past explaining all this unlike some adaptations. Yet, it seems the preferred solution to some is still to just make some royal decree or they just shouldn't fight. God forbid the characters disagree with each other over imperfect but necessary and practical course of action.

I think the only thing I touched on that differed from what you wrote here, is lamenting the personal plight and cost to Anis specifically at this juncture of the manga because of Euphie's actions.

Nothing about the situation of the kingdom and the reasons for this dispute between Anis and Euphie are a mystery to me, and I stated as such.

The only thing I expressed regret over is that Anis, at this point, now has to contend with the love of her life giving up her humanity, and without anything changing, she's destined to now die while Euphie lives on amd eventually forgets her. On its own, that's just depressing for Anis. It'll be a net good for the kingdom at large given the new ways Euphie can better things and change what needs changing. But Anisz personally, loses something important in Euphie's decision here, and that Contract will poses issues for her and Anis going forward without something changing the calculus on Anis' own lifespan.

If you meant a different comment of mine, then fair I guess, but calling me bafflingly unaware feels harsh and somewhat unnecessary, looking between the comment you quoted and your own.

 

[raineight]

she's destined to now die while Euphie lives on amd eventually forgets her

Well, normally, she was destined to die, with Euphie having a 50% chance of dying after her

Like, I'm not sure where the extra sadness comes in. "Instead of growing old and dying (and 'forgetting' me because dead), Euphie will live forever and maybe forget me"

Seems like a strict improvement to me. Your loved one lives on, to do whatever with their life.

It'd be different if Euphie was losing out on some cool afterlife, but I don't recall any mention of such beliefs.

 

[outinthegardener]

The basic standard of living is vastly increased since the start of the industrial revolution. This is way too hyperfocused on the potential downsides. A perfect society isn't possible with humans involved anyway, that isn't the goal.

Today people have better health, more freedoms, more rights, greater work opportunities, more conveniences, less privation. We are able to support enormously larger populations, and more people are able to socially and politically influence the world they live in. All this is true, even taking into account the fact that half the world lives in poverty, income inequality is rising and pollution is becoming an unmanageable issue.

Sure, if they don't change and move forward, they'll probably avoid devastating world wars, pollution, dominance of new elite classes and mass social decay. I'm sure they'll be better off dying young, having no choice of jobs, working for little or no pay, always reliant on their betters for the simplest of amenities, subject to arbitrary incarceration or even execution, and where societal collapse is one hereditary mad or moronic monarch away. Not all of these are likely for every person living in a medieval society, but compared to a modern one?

But it's not just downsides vs downsides either. It's so easy to say, oh we're inundated with things like stress from long work hours or our health suffers from toxic materials. Yet the global life expectancy has literally doubled since the industrial revolution started. When you look at it objectively and quantifiably, life is measurably better. Just because its not a perfect world where you can literally pick and choose from a plethora of major issues doesn't take away from the fact that we're better off. And I emphasize that word, "fact". Quantifiable, proven, independent of your personal beliefs and interpretation or mine.

I think we agree more than we disagree, but I'll push back and clarify some points. I was not trying to claim that Medieval Technology or lifestyle was better or worse than the Modern Lifestyle, but that they each have pros and cons. And those pros and cons vary depending on which caste you belong to, and the existence of castes is a problem itself that industrialization did not fix. Neither was I trying to make a complete list in a few paragraphs. I wasn't hyperfocused, I was hyper-generalizing.

It's difficult to make claims that one is strictly better than the other. In certain specific and isolated categories, it can seem obvious, but the wide view can obscure the subjective and objective judgments needed to say one is better than the other. For instance, specifically, life expectancy is much higher. But in the wide view we also have many problems with poor elder care, medical debt, low pay for elder care workers, etc. To say "higher life expectancy is better" is an oversimplification. Ideally, we'd look for ways to have longer lifespans and work to correct the challenges it brings.

Freedom is another one that I always bristle at. We are freer in some aspects, and less free in others. Serfs were freed to choose their work, but they lost the freedom to find unused land and homestead once all the land was enclosed. People who can afford to buy land are free to do so, but people without means are not. I'm able to travel farther and faster by automobile, but I'm less safe if I choose to travel by bicycle. In the United States everyone is free to try and influence our government (well not if you're a convicted felon, or a native american), but the extremely wealthy have so much additional influence that the extremely poor have close to none. Freedom is an incredibly murky thing to rate, always trapped in positive and negative outcomes.

This is probably a fundamental difference in epistemology, but I don't think Objectivity or Fact are very reliable concepts. It's a fact that people disagree on facts all the time. It's the Modernism vs. Post-Modernism argument about whether you think the world can be rationally observed and sorted to arrive at factual knowledge, or if you think that rationality is impeded by assumptions and mistakes and social pressure to conform to acceptable knowledge. I follow the latter, because I can observe how "known fact" has always changed over time and context. Shoutout to Bruno Latour! We were never modern.

To steer it back to my original post, these questions are important for what Euphie and Anis are trying to do. I can't say "magitech will make everyone's lives better" because it will probably make some people's lives much worse, too. The challenge is to keep seeking improvement for the most people.

 

[UdenEmpati]

Well, normally, she was destined to die, with Euphie having a 50% chance of dying after her

Like, I'm not sure where the extra sadness comes in. "Instead of growing old and dying (and 'forgetting' me because dead), Euphie will live forever and maybe forget me"

Seems like a strict improvement to me. Your loved one lives on, to do whatever with their life.

It'd be different if Euphie was losing out on some cool afterlife, but I don't recall any mention of such beliefs.

Sure, but that sounds like a judgment call from your own perspective and values and it's a different view for everyone, and it's not just because of things like a hypothetical afterlife. Anis herself didn't want Euphie to go through with this, hence this fight taking place at all.

I know what happens in the LN, and none of this ultimately matters. But right here in this moment of time for Anis, Euphie's giving up her humanity, and that was a terrible enough future that Anis fought a duel with her over the chance to prevent it.

Saying "but Euphie lives on and gets to do stuff that'll improve things years down the line after Anis is dead" kinda throws Anis' efforts over this past arc in her face, from where I'm sitting.

Euphie's reasons and the consequences for the kingdom from her actions are a net good, and that includes for Anis, even if she were to grow old and die. But the point that I am continuously attempting to make clear, is that I simply feel for Anis and the anguish she is going through in this moment, because she doesn't know the future from where she sits in her present moment within the narrative.

If I can make that more clear somehow, let me know and I'll try again.

 

[hamberserk]

Wow wow wow this is adapted so well