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The Reason Why Raeliana Ended Up at the Duke's Mansion - Vol. 4 Ch. 139
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@Dreadkiwi Tinfoil hats aside, this chapter just presented us a gun right next to unconscious Raeliana. Clearly someone is gonna be shot
OGRae is dumb (everyone is taking a level in stupid in this story tbh) but frankly her story has more pathos than any of the main characters'. People asking "why couldn't she just appreciate what she had?" don't understand that she wasn't just jealous, she was a puppet of fate. She was written to die, and no matter how moral or immoral she was, she'd always end up like that. Hell, you could argue that she only makes immoral choices because that's how "the goddess" retroactively justifies her death, since the element of fate puts every character's agency into question (very meta, if bleak). Pretty much the only good thing this story could do at this point is not kill her, but this is an otome isekai and otome isekai gotta revenge-kill some female antagonists. Yaaaay.
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😃Edit: Since it was a lot of text, I put it like this, just in case you want to move on from my comments quickly 😅
@K_mari But doesn't the same apply to others? If you look closely, none of the characters have everything, each of them lived their own difficulties, she is destined to die, but that was only a future, not reality, the king's son is also destined to die but they saved him, if a baby could be saved from an early death she could also do it, after all her soul is fine, but the problem is that she doesn't seek to save herself, she wants to subplant her own dead friend.
She would be a victim of the witch who changed her bodies, but this witch is already dead, all the crimes she committed were planned by herself, not by the witch and all her crimes injured or killed people who had nothing to do with her life.
Besides, I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way, but that of killing people justifying that she wants to change her unjust destiny so that they love her seems extremely hypocritical, since she doesn't mind killing everyone but asks for their love.
Postscript: The current Rae isn't to blame for this either, as such the goddess does what she wants, but they will kill me for what I am going to say
It would have been nice if she realized her mistake and regretted it, but I think it is a lot to ask of a clear case of psychopath
She would be a victim of the witch who changed her bodies, but this witch is already dead, all the crimes she committed were planned by herself, not by the witch and all her crimes injured or killed people who had nothing to do with her life.
Besides, I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way, but that of killing people justifying that she wants to change her unjust destiny so that they love her seems extremely hypocritical, since she doesn't mind killing everyone but asks for their love.
Postscript: The current Rae isn't to blame for this either, as such the goddess does what she wants, but they will kill me for what I am going to say
What was the use of OG Raeliana living? If only she destroy everything in its path. You reap what you sow.
It would have been nice if she realized her mistake and regretted it, but I think it is a lot to ask of a clear case of psychopath
@GiGiKat Every time this sort of thing comes up in a story I end up getting tagged by someone who's obviously operating on the Thermian Argument. Internal consistency is not a good excuse for having a biased world operating on hardcore protagonist-centered morality. My problem with this destiny thing is that there's clearly an outside force affecting things, but because OGRae is a ""psychopath"" this will get swept under the rug in favor of defeating her. It's a Marvel movie-esque case of having a villain with a perfectly valid motive and an interesting connection to the protagonist, but then tacking a bunch of overblown Evul stuff on just to demonize the motive/ideology and justify killing the villain over solving the big overarching issue. It flattens the story and ends up unintentionally arguing for some questionable things.
I don't think any of the characters within the world itself are to blame for anything — that's my problem with it, really. The element of destiny and how the lovers were fated to find each other regardless of OGRae's actions calls the actual agency of the characters into question — are they really two dynamic, multifaceted people who fell for each other naturally, or are they just fated to fall in love? Introducing that doubt weakens the romance, which wasn't all that strong to begin with, because it's no longer a subversion wherein the irrelevant side character saves herself and bags the main love interest. Their lack of agency becomes even more obvious on a meta level when you can feel the hand of the actual author at work, rushing towards the endgame with contrivance after contrivance regardless of how shrewd these people are supposed to be.
So, no, OGRae's choices never really mattered, and I think that's sad. I also think it's pretty messed up to suggest that she deserved to die all along because she was just a bad person at heart or a "psychopath" (I don't know why y'all throw that word around so much, seriously). This narrative that people are born good or evil and have to die for their inherent sinfulness if they are the latter is … not even regressive, just totally fucked all around. I'm not saying she deserves a redemption arc or anything, just that her character deserved better, more self-aware writing.
I don't think any of the characters within the world itself are to blame for anything — that's my problem with it, really. The element of destiny and how the lovers were fated to find each other regardless of OGRae's actions calls the actual agency of the characters into question — are they really two dynamic, multifaceted people who fell for each other naturally, or are they just fated to fall in love? Introducing that doubt weakens the romance, which wasn't all that strong to begin with, because it's no longer a subversion wherein the irrelevant side character saves herself and bags the main love interest. Their lack of agency becomes even more obvious on a meta level when you can feel the hand of the actual author at work, rushing towards the endgame with contrivance after contrivance regardless of how shrewd these people are supposed to be.
So, no, OGRae's choices never really mattered, and I think that's sad. I also think it's pretty messed up to suggest that she deserved to die all along because she was just a bad person at heart or a "psychopath" (I don't know why y'all throw that word around so much, seriously). This narrative that people are born good or evil and have to die for their inherent sinfulness if they are the latter is … not even regressive, just totally fucked all around. I'm not saying she deserves a redemption arc or anything, just that her character deserved better, more self-aware writing.
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Edit: Since it was a lot of text, I put it like this, just in case you want to move on from my comments quickly 😅
]@K_mari Well first of all I'm sorry if I made you feel bad, that wasn't my intention to label with cruel terms, you are not the first to think this way about this character.
Now, I usually answer with the same and that is: Isn't it the same with others?
What I am referring to is that not everyone has a life written by the goddess of destiny? Iosa referred to her as a bad playwright who did what she wanted, after all she would be above any law or physics in general. If I have to compare her with someone, she is very similar to EA's Vita with the difference of this goddess if they make it clear to you she can be cruel or good (which isn't the case with Vita), since she does what she wants.
If we look at it like this, that means that she writes the future of the people, but why does she need a specific soul to be in the body for the role of the character to be fulfilled? From what I see, destiny doesn't dictate people a path that they cannot go, but rather that they are given a path where it is 98% likely that they will take it voluntarily.
That is why Beatrice's destiny fits MC and not OG Rae, since Beatrice was a cheerful, kind, tenacious and dazzling beauty that when she smiled she captivated people, OG Rae is a more refined person, she hardly laughs never and she only watches over her own life, she doesn't fit the role of Beatrice, so she would never have the destiny that was for MC.
On the other hand, MC fits the role of Beatrice like a glove, it's almost identical in personality to her with small differences but that because she comes from a world with modern politics, without magic, with comforts and technological advances, for which MC It would be a Beatrice of the modern era, apart from the fact that she loves Noah and vice versa, so despite the dark idea of having a predetermined path, if you look at it well, it's a life that she wouldn't cost her to lead since she adjusts, on the other hand, OG Rae would only have suffered much more if he managed to kill the current Rae, since she would not have the same path as MC and Noah wouldn't love her at all.
Let's remember that Noah fell in love with MC's personality, apart from the fact that he only accepted his feelings when he saw that MC cared about him, which no woman did with him because they only wanted him for his pretty face or money, that doesn't work against Noah who is suspicious and cunning.
I realized this when it was said that stirring souls will make the work a disaster, but that means that she cannot change how the person who has free will acts or feels, she can only write them a future according to his way of being. But there is the question. What did the real Raeliana do to make her have this destiny? I only find 3 answers to this question:
Uff, this was too long, sorry, the last thing would be to answer the question: Why do they call the current Beatrice psycho? That is easy, I think that for no one in sound mind I would make a pact with a dark witch to change your body with your childhood friend to have the life that he had, after all you should give up your own life, parents , acquaintances and comforts .................... and I also don't think that someone healthy in the head would burn a palace with people inside just to kill one person ...
Now, I usually answer with the same and that is: Isn't it the same with others?
What I am referring to is that not everyone has a life written by the goddess of destiny? Iosa referred to her as a bad playwright who did what she wanted, after all she would be above any law or physics in general. If I have to compare her with someone, she is very similar to EA's Vita with the difference of this goddess if they make it clear to you she can be cruel or good (which isn't the case with Vita), since she does what she wants.
If we look at it like this, that means that she writes the future of the people, but why does she need a specific soul to be in the body for the role of the character to be fulfilled? From what I see, destiny doesn't dictate people a path that they cannot go, but rather that they are given a path where it is 98% likely that they will take it voluntarily.
That is why Beatrice's destiny fits MC and not OG Rae, since Beatrice was a cheerful, kind, tenacious and dazzling beauty that when she smiled she captivated people, OG Rae is a more refined person, she hardly laughs never and she only watches over her own life, she doesn't fit the role of Beatrice, so she would never have the destiny that was for MC.
On the other hand, MC fits the role of Beatrice like a glove, it's almost identical in personality to her with small differences but that because she comes from a world with modern politics, without magic, with comforts and technological advances, for which MC It would be a Beatrice of the modern era, apart from the fact that she loves Noah and vice versa, so despite the dark idea of having a predetermined path, if you look at it well, it's a life that she wouldn't cost her to lead since she adjusts, on the other hand, OG Rae would only have suffered much more if he managed to kill the current Rae, since she would not have the same path as MC and Noah wouldn't love her at all.
Let's remember that Noah fell in love with MC's personality, apart from the fact that he only accepted his feelings when he saw that MC cared about him, which no woman did with him because they only wanted him for his pretty face or money, that doesn't work against Noah who is suspicious and cunning.
I realized this when it was said that stirring souls will make the work a disaster, but that means that she cannot change how the person who has free will acts or feels, she can only write them a future according to his way of being. But there is the question. What did the real Raeliana do to make her have this destiny? I only find 3 answers to this question:
1) It is due to the free will of Francis Brooks and Jake Langston, as you will all see, Vivian died in an unfair way since her original destiny was not this, she died because current Beatrice decided so, what if the same happened here, only that the goddess took advantage of her death so that Beatrice from the novel returned to the kingdom? After all, the one who would bear the death of Raeliana would be Francis and Jake.
2) It was a punishment that he has to serve for another life, in this story they make it clear that all souls have to go from body to body until they die permanently, perhaps it is a case similar to Elise de Clorance from Dr. Elise, where she was a horrible woman who committed serious crimes, in the next life, she goes from being an orphan, living a miserable life until she finally redeemed herself and returned to the first world but before she committed crimes. But well let's stop talking about Elise, maybe OG Rae is carrying something that she didn't necessarily do in those life.
3) She had to die precisely to prevent the story we are seeing, what if this was inevitable? What if the true destiny of OG Raeliana was to steal the body of her friend and cause chaos in the kingdom, if you compare this story with the little that has been told about the novel that MC read you will realize that it is much darker and grotesque the current story than the original. It may be she died at a stage where her soul still possessed a certain innocence to prevent her from becoming the monster we know as the true Raeliana.
2) It was a punishment that he has to serve for another life, in this story they make it clear that all souls have to go from body to body until they die permanently, perhaps it is a case similar to Elise de Clorance from Dr. Elise, where she was a horrible woman who committed serious crimes, in the next life, she goes from being an orphan, living a miserable life until she finally redeemed herself and returned to the first world but before she committed crimes. But well let's stop talking about Elise, maybe OG Rae is carrying something that she didn't necessarily do in those life.
3) She had to die precisely to prevent the story we are seeing, what if this was inevitable? What if the true destiny of OG Raeliana was to steal the body of her friend and cause chaos in the kingdom, if you compare this story with the little that has been told about the novel that MC read you will realize that it is much darker and grotesque the current story than the original. It may be she died at a stage where her soul still possessed a certain innocence to prevent her from becoming the monster we know as the true Raeliana.
Uff, this was too long, sorry, the last thing would be to answer the question: Why do they call the current Beatrice psycho? That is easy, I think that for no one in sound mind I would make a pact with a dark witch to change your body with your childhood friend to have the life that he had, after all you should give up your own life, parents , acquaintances and comforts .................... and I also don't think that someone healthy in the head would burn a palace with people inside just to kill one person ...
@GiGiKat Again, you are arguing on completely different terms and completely missing the point. The in-universe justification doesn't matter to me. The story still concludes that people belong in certain predetermined roles based on innate characteristics, which completely flies in the face of the usual appeal of otome isekai stories about women rewriting their own fates. You can tack whatever eeeevil characteristics you want onto Beatrice, but in the end she's ultimately being punished by the narrative for trying to rewrite fate whilst not being the protagonist (who is allowed to rewrite some of fate, but only because she's the protagonist). Part of that narrative punishment is framing her as an evil "psychopath" with no sympathetic qualities, all so the audience will more easily agree with the idea that fate is some kind of neutral good and that people belong in the roles that "fit" them, even if their role is to die in the first act.
And fwiw, don't worry, you didn't make me feel bad! I just think you should evaluate whether you're arguing on Watsonian or Doylist terms before going any further in any kind of fandom debate. Also, my problem with people throwing around the word "psychopath" is that the term itself is more of a pop cultural buzzword than a legit diagnosis of an antisocial personality type. All you're really saying is that you think she's mentally wired to be "evil," which isn't functionally different from saying that people are born good or bad. And again, if it's just about being "healthy in the head," then you should definitely question whether the narrative of a woman deserving to die because of inherent mental illness is really an ethical one for an author to spread.
And fwiw, don't worry, you didn't make me feel bad! I just think you should evaluate whether you're arguing on Watsonian or Doylist terms before going any further in any kind of fandom debate. Also, my problem with people throwing around the word "psychopath" is that the term itself is more of a pop cultural buzzword than a legit diagnosis of an antisocial personality type. All you're really saying is that you think she's mentally wired to be "evil," which isn't functionally different from saying that people are born good or bad. And again, if it's just about being "healthy in the head," then you should definitely question whether the narrative of a woman deserving to die because of inherent mental illness is really an ethical one for an author to spread.
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😃Edit: Since it was a lot of text, I put it like this, just in case you want to move on from my comments quickly 😅
@K_mari Well, I think you didn't understand anything I said or you have taken it differently, but I think that separating the morality from her actions would easily make this nonsense, I still think that Beatrice changed her destiny only to get that she isn't done for her instead of making her own way, but I don't think she has earned the hatred of the fandom just because she is an enemy of MC, which was unnecessary, since if she had not done the change of bodies they would have easily been friends.
The end justifies the means, but the best question would be what are the ends so that the means are worth it, according to Beatrice, her end is to have Beatrice's life so that she no longer feels miserable, no matter who gets her head blown into her path ......... about mental illness, well if I don't know what to tell you, but I feel like you're a bit upset that 98% of the fandom hates her, you can't do much if she has such a selfish thought that the public dislikes, now if we count everything he did to be Beatrice, it is disgusting, this reminded me of Shou Tucker from FMA, only of course this guy is much sicker than Beatrice who still has a hint of " conscience"
Now if you think that I despise you because you feel sorry for Beatrice's character, you are very wrong, I respect your opinion a lot, but I will say it again I don't believe that she is a victim in all this and that she is hated just because she doesn't get along with MC, Vivian didn't get along with MC either but the fandom feels very bad that she died at the hands of Beatrice, as many sympathized with her due to her regret
The end justifies the means, but the best question would be what are the ends so that the means are worth it, according to Beatrice, her end is to have Beatrice's life so that she no longer feels miserable, no matter who gets her head blown into her path ......... about mental illness, well if I don't know what to tell you, but I feel like you're a bit upset that 98% of the fandom hates her, you can't do much if she has such a selfish thought that the public dislikes, now if we count everything he did to be Beatrice, it is disgusting, this reminded me of Shou Tucker from FMA, only of course this guy is much sicker than Beatrice who still has a hint of " conscience"
Now if you think that I despise you because you feel sorry for Beatrice's character, you are very wrong, I respect your opinion a lot, but I will say it again I don't believe that she is a victim in all this and that she is hated just because she doesn't get along with MC, Vivian didn't get along with MC either but the fandom feels very bad that she died at the hands of Beatrice, as many sympathized with her due to her regret
@GiGiKat Look, I can't explain this to you if you insist on ignoring my Doylist standpoint and inferring motives that I don't have. Characters aren't real people. They don't exist in a vacuum or make their own independent choices; they are simply tools to tell a story. I don't have any special attachment to Beatrice as a character, I just think that the message the story conveys through her character is poorly conceived and intentionally or not refuses to critique this system of "fate," which can really be a stand-in for any sort of system that favors certain people and discards others for their innate traits. I think Beatrice has an actual degree of pathos that the main characters don't because she is fighting against something truly inevitable, but I'm not against her being selfish on principle. I just think it would be better for a story like this to show her some compassion instead of turning her into a cartoon villain whose defeat and likely death we're supposed to celebrate uncritically.
To further clarify: I don't think the audience's reaction to Beatrice is the fault of the audience, but the fault of the writing itself for encouraging that reaction. Any criticism I have of the series is ultimately a criticism of the author, not a criticism of you.
Also, I specifically assured you before that you didn't make me feel bad, so I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I'm deeply hurt and think you "despise me" for having a different opinion. In fact, I'm starting to think you keep projecting those feelings onto me because you want me to be upset. If that's the case, uh … maybe don't? This is the comment section of a chapter of an illegally scanlated manhwa, not some heated political stage. Nothing is at stake here. I'm gonna engage with the story on my own terms whether it bothers you or not, so there's no need to turn this into A Thing.
(btw, the word you're looking for is "conscience.")
Edit: misspelled "own" as "on"
To further clarify: I don't think the audience's reaction to Beatrice is the fault of the audience, but the fault of the writing itself for encouraging that reaction. Any criticism I have of the series is ultimately a criticism of the author, not a criticism of you.
Also, I specifically assured you before that you didn't make me feel bad, so I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I'm deeply hurt and think you "despise me" for having a different opinion. In fact, I'm starting to think you keep projecting those feelings onto me because you want me to be upset. If that's the case, uh … maybe don't? This is the comment section of a chapter of an illegally scanlated manhwa, not some heated political stage. Nothing is at stake here. I'm gonna engage with the story on my own terms whether it bothers you or not, so there's no need to turn this into A Thing.
(btw, the word you're looking for is "conscience.")
Edit: misspelled "own" as "on"
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😃Edit: Since it was a lot of text, I put it like this, just in case you want to move on from my comments quickly 😅
Postscript: Thanks for correcting my mistake, I misspelled conscience, Goodbye
@K_mari What I wanted to say is that the value of the characters comes from their complexity and nuances, but not they're necessarily role models or take them seriously. If we remove a part of them, it automatically loses the meaning of its existence, so it's better to look at what is shown of them well, but with this I want it to end because I don't want you to misunderstand me.
I'm attacking you? I think I didn't take care of my vocabulary correctly. I'm sorry that you are offended and you see it like I'm attacking you or want to make you angry, I thought we were only talking about Beatrice, I know the criticism goes to the comic, not to me, I don't know what I do to you feel like that, that you would take it personal and put yourself that way, so I withdraw, I thought we were talking about the comic, again, I'm sorry.
I'm attacking you? I think I didn't take care of my vocabulary correctly. I'm sorry that you are offended and you see it like I'm attacking you or want to make you angry, I thought we were only talking about Beatrice, I know the criticism goes to the comic, not to me, I don't know what I do to you feel like that, that you would take it personal and put yourself that way, so I withdraw, I thought we were talking about the comic, again, I'm sorry.
Postscript: Thanks for correcting my mistake, I misspelled conscience, Goodbye
@GiGiKat Again, I wasn't offended and never said you were "attacking me"(???), but at this point it does seem like you're deliberately trying to annoy me or highkey projecting because my comments upset you. You're the only one who's been trying to make this argument personal, probably because you aren't interested in my actual argument at all. You haven't responded to any of my points on their own terms; you just keep circling back to how you feel about the characters' choices and personalities from a Watsonian standpoint.
If you aren't interested in thematic implications and whatnot and just want to enjoy the characters the way the author wants you to, that's totally fine! But no one is obliged to consume media the same way you do. Don't get into debates with people if you aren't actually going to listen to their POV.
If you aren't interested in thematic implications and whatnot and just want to enjoy the characters the way the author wants you to, that's totally fine! But no one is obliged to consume media the same way you do. Don't get into debates with people if you aren't actually going to listen to their POV.
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