Tondemo Skill de Isekai Hourou Meshi - Vol. 5 Ch. 27 - New Business With the Wife

[primrosea]

@goodhunter
So... Was perfumed soaps/shampoo common in medieval period?

 

[JutlandAngel]

@primrosea I don't know about scented soap, but I know there were pseudo-perfume in ancient Egypt.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Except it's not you who decides that connection.
Even if historical reason exist, if people doesn't even recognizes it, then the association doesn't exist.

And what historical reason? Judging from other people reaction earlier in this thread, it's only you who made that Japanese association.

And contrary to popular belief, not everyone in the internet is a westerner, so I'm not even aware that burning crosses is associated with racism instead of, I don't know, Satanism.
If it's the same thing as Swastika associated with Nazi, and can't be anything but Nazi, then well, I can only see people insisting on that as a crazy fanatic.
And heck, that's even a good counterpoint, even though there's a historical reason to associates Swastika with religion, that's not what people associates it with, no?

Oh, you know what, sure, let's take the specifically Japanese, "Japanese stuff best stuff" as actual trope, a sub-trope of the trope "MC's country stuff best stuff"
And now we're back to the previous argument where the soap might not even be a Japanese product.
Or is that trope actually about that whole Japanese man's burden you're talking about?
Well, you made that point about White man's burden, so that trope should've been associated with White man, not Japanese, no?
Pretty sure there's also variant trope all over the world with their own country, so which one are you talking about?
Did you mean the super-trope (if that even a thing) that encompasses all those variant, "My countrymen the best" kind of trope? That doesn't have anything to do with Japanese.
Specifically the Japanese variants? Well, unless you can give a non-racial reason for that, your point not gonna hold any weight.

On the merchant, the merchant reacted like he had seen soap before. What about the initial reaction made it look like he had seen good quality soap specifically? The merchant was like oh, it smells like flowers. In fact, look at his ACTUAL words. "It smells really good for soap". That means that he EXPECTS soap to not smell that good. He expects soap to be pretty bad (by our standards). That's the opposite of what you claim.

Even you have said that while a good quality soap may exist, most other medieval soap is normally bad.
Just because you've seen a good quality soap, doesn't mean you'd gonna expect every other soap to follow the same standard. What he actually means is something along the line of "It smells really good according to his standard of soap".
And demeanor and choice of words matter. Instead of freaking out, and calling it something he's never seen before like the salt case before, this one merchant act calms, like it's nothing groundbreaking, and just praises it for its quality.
It's like he has seen something similar, like he knows that this kind of soap isn't something impossible to achieve.

And since you brought up Arabian soap, now there's also another possible interpretation for this.
Arabian soap has a strong smell, so it's possible that while it can be considered a good smell, the soap that MC brought, with milder fragrance, can be considered the better one by people of this country.
So still makes sense even in the real world counterpart.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls

Did you read all of the other comments? Some of them were actually in agreement with me. Some of them made jokes but still showed a general agreement. Look at Nk9bjP4A's comment as just one example.

Are you talking about the medieval soap quality, or how Japanese man isn't allowed to look good in any story ever?
Because I'm pretty sure we're talking about the latter, not the former.

And contrary to popular belief, the term "Westerner" is extremely indefinite and kind of useless even here. Cross-burning as a racism issue is specific to the United States. So saying "westerner" is just stereotyping.

Well, yes, that's the joke.

For what it's worth, I expect people to be able to search on the Internet since we're on the Internet, so that's why I used that example even though I know that people on here may or may not know of it.

And you expect someone who just did a 5 minutes search to be able to understand the intricacy and subtlety that cross-burning symbol contains, good enough to be able to have discussion around it?

But that misses the point. The fact that swastikas are associated with Nazis is due to historical reasons. In older times, it was associated with religion. In more recent times, specifically because of historical reasons, the swastika has become associated with Nazis. That literally is a historical reason.

Oh, so you mean the impact kind of historical reason, not the oldest, longest kind of historical reason.
So which historical reason is impactful enough to have isekai trope associated with Japanese propaganda?

This is nonsensical. You do realize that I used it as a comparison, right? I'm saying the trend of isekai series to prop up Japanese culture to the detriment of other cultures is similar to the White Man's Burden. If this were the 1800s or early 1900s, you would have been the kind of person who read popular novels of the time and read news articles talking about how this one person, who just happened to be white, went into this land and improved things. Hey, look! His gunpowder was originally invented in China. His alphabet is from Rome. The rubber he has is from central Africa. That shows that it's totally not just about the white man's burden or anything like that.

It being used as comparison doesn't mean it can't also fits with the trope.
That White Man burden, borrowing your words, is literally the "Japanese stuff best stuff" trope.
Except, given there's even the titular White Man Burden involved, the White Man Burden actually got a historical reason to be associated with the trope, instead of the Japanese man's burden.

I would call it out anywhere that I see it. Here, it's about Japanese culture. If there were a story that featured the white man's burden, I would call that out too. This particular one is about Japanese culture.
[...]
As I said above, I would point it out regardless of whatever culture it is. A non-racial reason for pointing it out? I have literally the same reasons as you. The soap could be from another culture. The gunpowder could be from another culture. Alphabet, rubber, etc., etc. It's basically trying to wrongly give credit where credit is not due. Most of your reasons are my reasons.

Finally, would you look at that, in the end, it's all just about the trope.
What even is all that things about special connection between the trope and Japanese through some historical reason?
There ain't even any need to differentiate between the different country variant in the first place, especially specifically singling out the Japanese variant by emphasizing over and over how MC being Japanese is so important.
Because in the end, the exact nationality doesn't matter, they're all equally as bad, no?

While I don't necessarily share your view and there's an argument to be made, but now we can finally going back to like, 7 posts ago before you brush off everything by saying I missed your point.

The wife and the merchant freak out AFTER the merchant used the soap. The wife certainly freaked out. So, why did she freak out? She doesn't know the price that Mukoda wants to sell it at, so it can't be that. She is wealthy (through her husband, at the very least; for all I know, maybe she's independently wealthy). You'd think that she'd be able to purchase her own perfumed soaps from other places if they existed. The conclusion is that they don't exist. Just like Shakur's thinking. The conclusion is that medieval people didn't have access to good soaps, regardless of if you are a very wealthy merchant. The conclusion is that Mukoda's soaps are simply much better than other soaps.

If it's after they use it, then the reason is simple.
It's because Mukouda soap is actually even better that even our own modern soap.
You know, the whole thing about Otherworld item getting buffed and stuff.
Though that buff should only be apparent after you use it, since there's no precedent of things he brought having an always active AoE effect, so before using it, the soap should mostly behave like modern soap.
And again, judging from how the merchant judges it when it's still perceived as a normal modern soap, it implies that soap on par with modern soap exist.

Let me say this. Yes, your interpretation is entirely possible. I am not denying that. However, what is the likelihood of that actually being the case? I don't need an actual number or anything like that, but I want you to actually consider it. Now, after thinking about it, I believe you would say it's a fairly low likelihood. I think it is unlikely that the wife wanted a milder smelling soap.

Well, mate, you really need to understand how strong the fragrance we're talking about here.
It's like you can smell it from 50m apart. I say it's comparable with Durian in how strong the fragrance is. You know, the thing that's banned in public transportation due to how strong its smell is.
And the Arabs likes to layer perfumes on top of that.

Now, think about what I'm saying. You may think that it's a fairly low likelihood that what I have said is correct. That's fine. I understand. But it's the same kind of thing. You and I seem to disagree on the likelihood of these things, but if you accept that they did, in fact, happen, then it makes sense.

I don't know, man, like, all this time it's you who's denying anything that isn't your interpretation.
Like, the author can't be not wrong or something.
Even though there's an interpretation that would makes sense of the story.
A story is made to makes sense after all, so an interpretation that makes sense of the story is more likely than an interpretation that would makes the story stop making any sense, no?

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Well, mate, buddy, pal.
That's not the kind of historical reason you're building up with your example.
That's just personal historical reason, a cognitive bias due to personal experience. You know, the same thing that makes Illuminati fanatics find connection to Illuminati from every little thing.
The context you're talking about, that connects isekai to Japanese propaganda, is just a personal context, shared by hardly anyone else.
Sure, there might be a lot of isekai with Japanese propaganda, but there's way more isekai without that Japanese propaganda. It's your bias making a connection when it's there's none that blows up the proportion.
It's the water gun equal gun case all over again.

On to the merchant topic, you forgot that Mukouda also tends to be rather slow and even forgot that the buff exist.
Like, he still gives Anpan and other confectionery to Feru as he like even after the 50% buff accident. Without even checking their stats.
And it's also the first non-food item he introduced to the locals, so he might not even aware that it'd be buffed. Even though there's a precedent with Sui eating otherworld garbage.

You personally can easily dismiss how strong the smell is, but it is a fact that this sign exist.

Spoiler

Enough people complains that they need to put it everywhere.
And if I recall correctly, there's even a historical record of medieval European traveler hating the strong smell, giving us some insight on how the medievals might perceive strong fragrance.
In medieval times, the Arabs might perceive it as a good smelling perfumed soap, but Europeans won't necessarily share the same opinion.

And again, it's not a normal (modern) soap once you judge its function.
Oh heck, you know what, let's take the Wife's assessment in to account. She says the hair product works instantly. Supporting the possibility that the buff actually exist.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Because it's just like that water gun is a gun example.
Unless you can prove that the connection isn't merely a superficial connection, then it's just that. A superficial connection.
And you've done nothing of the sort all this time.

And then there's also this whole concept of "Innocent until proven Guilty" and all.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Why yes, you said all that while thought policing me, applying an arbitrary restriction that somehow makes a mindset wrong to have.
Who even decides that there needs to be a punishment for a mindset to apply? It's just a simple way of thinking that everything is right until proven otherwise.
Surely it must be a healthier mindset rather than thinking that everything is wrong until proven otherwise.
And it's the exact opposite of thought policing and all. After all, the only way to prove someone guilty is by their action, otherwise, it's all gucci.

And nah man, we're not talking that kind of institutional bias. There's no clear hierarchy between "the whole" and "the parts" after all.
What you're doing is trying to make something guilty by association.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Why yes, except I never once said that your position is wrong.
Debates and discussion is also not about proving the other side is wrong. It's about laying out your view and understanding other's view, no?

And now it's my turn to say that you missed the point.
The mindset is not about deciding right from wrong, much less about appealing to nature.
It's about making assumption.

And who ever debates the existence of those White Man burden's trope? Their existence is not what have been talked about all this time.
And it's really amazing seeing you try to make the term "guilty by association" guilty by association.
Sure, the term guilty might be "guilty" but, half borrowing your words, the whole can means a wholly different thing than the sum of its parts.
Guilty by association is a term used in argument analysis.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls How'd you explain playing the devil's advocate then?
And not really, I'm not saying that this manga is not biased. Heck, have I ever put any specific opinion regarding this manga?

And not really, no. Never did I say that it's wrong to have that certain assumption.
I just brought up that there's this concept that exist. And that you should be aware which parts of your point is just that, based on assumption.

Well, yeah, you've brought up the existence for a while now, even though I've acknowledged its existence from the very first time you brought it up, you still insist on bringing that up over and over as if its existence has been doubted.
And no, man, I've been doing the explaining all this time, all I'm doing here is trying to understand how you got that connection after all, by trying to put an explanation for that.

And seems like you mixed up things there. You know what, while that doll example isn't directly applicable to this discussion, sure, let's use that as example.
There's this black doll.
You've been saying that this black doll is-not-as-good-as-white-doll. For convenience's sake let's shorten that to the black doll is non-quality.
You're saying that there's a "historical reason" for that, there's a lot of other black doll that's non-quality, and even in the context, with the racial segregation still ongoing, the black doll should be non-quality.
And this black doll does nothing that would make it break from the mold of being a black doll, it's colored black and all.
All I've been saying is that the doll being black isn't what makes the doll non-quality, and that you're what you're doing is trying to make the doll guilty by association.
Ignoring institutional effect? How's that even relates to the whole guilty by association thing.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls But the devil's advocate isn't supporting their position.

Exactly. It's been acknowledged, you've explained why the connection exist, and I've explained the kind of reason that makes you think the connection exist.
It's guilty by association kind of connection.

But the discussion isn't about the author here.
It's about the products. The black doll. The manga.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Nah, not really. Devil's advocate isn't really trying to advance their (debate) position as to advance their real position.

Nah, man, you missed the point. 1) Guilt by association is a real connection and 2) Guilt by association is also a real issue. Racism is a case of a guilt by association connection.

You can easily swap the product and the trait, and it'd still applies, but you know what? Here you go.
There's this white doll.
You've been saying that this white doll ridicules the existence of other doll. For convenience's sake let's call that the white doll is racist.
You're saying that there's a "historical reason" for that, there's a lot of other white doll that's racist, and even in the context, with the racial segregation still ongoing, the white doll should be racist.
And this white doll does nothing that would make it break from the mold of being a white doll, it's colored white and all.
All I've been saying is that the doll being white isn't what makes the doll racist, and that you're what you're doing is trying to make the doll guilty by association.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Woah, finally, you realized that particular branch of discussion doesn't matter.
Congratulation.

Well, mate, you need to actually face the reality. You need to stop escaping by dismissing what others said as their escape way, a way for them to ignore reality.
It's just a term, it's used to categorize things, it can't hurt you. And it's not related with that whole being biased issue you seems so passionate about.
In fact, this discussion isn't really related to that issue.

Nah man, that ain't a caricature. And yeah, that's one of the way a human psychology can works. To be specific, that's how cognitive bias works.
Is it logical though? That's another matter entirely.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls But you're the one that brought up the whole thought police things. Still salty about that one remark I made in a jest?
And you try to use that to somehow disproves the original point? That's some advanced strawman you got there.

What actual issue? You know what, sure. I've been exercising the whole "innocent until proven guilty" and treat the connection you made as a logical connection, but if you keep insisting on it just being a psychological connection, then sure, I'll treat it as one.
It's a bias. That's what that connection is.

And Who ever ignore the facts of how psychology works? But sure, you do that. End this whole discussion like that.
Not only that isn't related to the discussion in the first place, it's an appeal to the nature of psychology to try to prove something is logical, and also admitting that the connection you made is not a logical connection.
Do it.

Or heck, I'll just concludes it here for you.
The doll is white and thus racist because that's how psychology works and it is more illogical to ignore the facts of how psychology works.

 

[goodhunter]

@primrosia From what they docu's said, not really. At best, the oils from certain herbs and such they use will have it's natural scent. So in that sense, yes there had scented oil. But such a product is something only the rich would use as extracting such oils and such is a process that makes it too expensive for everyday folks to use. The kinds of scent we have in our soaps and hair products today are something you won't ever find back in those days. You'll only have natural scents at best if you're rich (but that isn't to say that they were bad smells, like for example olive oil was used since ancient times to clean and olive oil smells pleasant in itself), but aside from that any other soap would actually not smell pleasant or not have much particular scent as a whole.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Except innocent until proven guilty is relevant to the discussion. While that whole thought policing isn't.
Directly in response to what I said? What direct response? Your direct response is just you arbitrarily decided that it isn't applicable.
See, now you're trying to distract the whole discussion again.

And, again, the existence of those bias isn't what's been discussed. Focus, man.
Bias exist, it's been proven in the real world. No one denying that.
The whole Japanese media is biased? Sure, it's not what has been discussed, I never denied nor supported that claim, but sure, let's assume that as the truth.
All that still doesn't make your biased judgment of this work in particular any less biased.

And really, appealing to the real world? Because it is the way it is in the real world, it's okay?
Ad hominem?
Mate, you're better than that.

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Exactly my man. You don't just say something is bad until you prove that it's bad.
That movie is bad because there's this things that made it bad, not because it's a movie.
It actually makes you complain less, since you need an actual reason to complain.
Now you finally get it.
It's not a concept to decides what is right and wrong. It's a method to approach things.
Have nothing in common with thought police except you deciding that it makes you look like a thought police, another guilt by association, eh?

See, still hung up about the existence of the bias, hm? Just how many times do I need to tell you that I acknowledge their existence before you realized that that "discussion" has already long resolved?
Bias exist. Institutional racism exist. Japanese man's burden exist in media.
I'll even go out a limb and agree with you that Japanese media is also biased to make their Japanese MC looks good, while making other country looks bad.
It's all exactly because of those thing existing that you got your biased judgment of this series after all.
Oh, looks like it actually is relevant to the discussion, it's the source of your bias!

Also, I didn't say all, I say the whole. ...Is that another reason of your bias? You think they're interchangeable? Even though you're saying all that thing about the whole greater than the parts' sum?

And y'see, never have I ever say things don't exist in this discussion. Where did you even get that impression? Mixed up your strawman?
Oh, on ad hominem? Does having no idea what an ad hominem is rings a bell?

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls Ah, yes, seems like you don't get it. Back again.
I never say that it's the only method to approach things. It's okay to approach things differently.
By approaching with multiple method, you can recognizes any bias that may exist quite easily. Like in this discussion.
So, what thought police?

And sure, if you've given your reason, that is.
All you're saying is how this isekai Japanese manga is biased because it's an isekai Japanese manga.

And yeah man, put words in my mouth, keep running away saying others just don't get it.
It's okay, I understand. It's hard accepting your own bias, hm?

 

[mage_goo]

@givemersspls See? Back again.
What have you even said that contrast with the whole "innocent until proven guilty"?
And you really need to read. There's guilty in "innocent until proven guilty". Even the court, after all, can judge that someone is guilty.
And how many times do I need to say that it's not a method to judge a method? Where do you even get that impression? Is it the whole connotation with how the court is only allowed to use that method and nothing else? Well, my bad then, should've worded it as "pass until proven ass" even though it ain't really a common term.

Oh and that's also my bad, I worded it wrong.
It's not "all you're saying", it's "all that you keep saying"
We've resolved the discussion of the other reason. It's just one of the possible interpretation of this works.
That's the whole reason we're moving on to this topic after all, the reason why you choose that interpretation specifically.
And why you keep putting emphasis on being Japanese, but that's already resolved.

And oh yes, the legendary "people that follows me, e.g. my people, is the best, others sucks ass" trope. The givemersspls' man's burden.
Amazing.

 

[mage_goo]

Ah yes.
Still trying to get the last words.

But sure, even you have admitted that your reason is just a bias.
You've laid out your view, and I have gained understanding of it.
A last ditch effort to appeal to the onlooker is just the perfect way to end this.

 

[shamster]

Recently came across this manga and am glad I was able to binge read it. Good work so far, LHtranslations!

^{Never thought this much "discussion" could come up, but that's just that, I guess. Nothing to do with me.}