Trigger warnings

[Vofuro]

@Probably_wont_log_in_again
we had that argument. Already. And the reason why these content tags are a good idea has also been posted repeatedly. Please stay on topic...

 

[Probably_wont_log_in_again]

Oh I saw, but youve just repackaged your originally rejected idea in new words and posted it again. If that doesnt warrant a warning, then I dont know what does. Neither the moderating team I suspect.

As for the rest:

>And the reason why these content tags are a good idea has also been posted repeatedly.
Repetition doesnt make the idea itself, or reason for it valid. If you wanna play it like that tho, then as a counterpoint I provided one great empirically validated reason why introducing 'more tags' is a dumb concept. Anecdotal for sure, but its still more tangible and material than anything posted here prior to that.

Which brings us back to what I wrote originally - when youre a sensitive lily, there are already some effective pre-measures you can take in advance to minimize the risk of fragmenting your fragile psyche further. Id say its your personal responsibility to do that.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Probably_wont_log_in_again Really? This is not about that 0.1% of MD readers who need a warning for their trauma, this is about everyone. That's why we're discussing about new tags for all of us, not for the traumatized. You're just repeating yourself at this point thus a circular argument. I'm not going to cater your need to say the same thing with different words so if you don't bring anything new I'm just gonna ignore your posts.

 

[Oeconomist]

I think that the tags “Psychological Abuse” and “Physical Abuse” will run into into overwhelming difficulty in application because of notions of comedy. I think that “Substance Abuse” will prove highly controversial because of tobacco and especially because of alcohol. (Drunkenness figures large in the manga that I have read.)

I would very much like to see use of a “Child Abuse” tag, but I don't guarantee that it won't run into overwhelming practical difficulties.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Oeconomist Now I'm just imagining a 4-koma comedy slice of life to have those two terrifying tags in yellow lol. I think tricking or hitting a character for comedic effect should be an exclusion to the theme vs plot point rule in which we just obviously rule it out. The TLers know how to tag their stuffs so I'm sure this won't be an issue.

Also the substance abuse thing, we probably need a unique rule for this tag specifically. At what point is the usage considered "abuse"? Usually, depending on the story, it's where a prominent character's personality develops negatively due to overusing the substance. A side character shouldn't contribute to the tag. This is where I would draw the line.

We can just implement child abuse and call it a thing. Kinda like gyaru/vampire/monster girl tags, only a portion of the manga world need them but they stand out enough to warrant the tags. I feel like child abuse is in the same category as those "rare but required" tags.

 

[Probably_wont_log_in_again]

I see you decided to keep ignoring point raised about tags. Convenient.

>Really? This is not about that 0.1% of MD readers who need a warning for their trauma, this is about everyone. That's why we're discussing about new tags for all of us, not for the traumatized.
Sorry, what? That you multiplied your imaginary demand base doesnt change the fact that the intent behind the idea, as well as its execution in case of successful implementation wouldve had been similar if not identical to what you perceive my codification of the issue to be. Stop grasping at straws.


>You're just repeating yourself at this point thus a circular argument
No, and definitely a no. Theres no circular reasoning fallacy here, and even if there was, you still woulndt had been able to pick up on it, cause its not how it works.

You dont get to throw a 'thus' out and expect your argument to straighten itself out on its own.

>if you don't bring anything new I'm just gonna ignore your posts.
Suit yourself. Not like anything here matters.

 

[Oeconomist]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN—

A comedy exception might prove workable for interpersonal-abuse tags, though not long ago there was some controversy over whether a series were comedy, and some series become comedies while others cease to be comedies. (Consider Hatsukoi Zombie.)

But, with a “Substance Abuse” tag, I don't think that agreement would be found about how much drunkenness is okay before tagging. (And dust-ups over tobacco would probably be persistent.)

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Oeconomist Well a Grandblue pretty much have a drunk character every other chapter but personally I wouldn't consider it substance abuse (also it can apply under the comedy exception). Neither does a chainsmoking character depending on the context. I think most mangakas know how to write a character who likes alcohol and an alcoholic separately so hopefully there shouldn't be too much drama over the alcohol issue for substance abuse.

On a side note, does tobacco really count as substance abuse? The only scenario I can think off is if a character is dying off of lung cancer and I doubt tons of mangas have that.

 

[Vofuro]

@Oeconomist
thanks for properly replying!

I think that the tags “Psychological Abuse” and “Physical Abuse” will run into into overwhelming difficulty in application because of notions of comedy.

I don't think that's the case for psychological abuse, because it's meant to hurt/break the victim, so you can usually easily tell whether it's just an unhealthy relationship or truly psychological abuse.
But I fear you might be right with "physical abuse", because the lines tend to blur there. There is brutal violence for comedic effect, and there's brutal violence for shock value, and then there's just violence that's a bit over the top.
That's why I was for the tag "torture", but that's like an umbrella term for both of these tags and also really specific. It's also the question of how much the genre "seinen" covers here, now that I think about it. Maybe only over-the-top violence without gore should count as a qualification for this tag. (Rename suggestions?)

I think that “Substance Abuse” will prove highly controversial because of tobacco and especially because of alcohol. (Drunkenness figures large in the manga that I have read.)

See what @DANDAN_THE_DANDAN said, I couldn't have put it any better I also want to add that just smoking shouldn't qualify, unless the character actively suffers from it and/or tries to stop. Otherwise it's, especially in the older mangas, more a sign that the character is supposed to be cool. The character needs to suffer from his addictions and be an addict, otherwise it wouldn't be substance abuse.

@Probably_wont_log_in_again
I make it a point not to reply to "discussions" that are essentially internet wars, where the other just wants to shove his opinion down my throat and quite obviously doesn't want to discuss pro/contra arguments, actually read what I wrote and meant and/or is getting rude/aggressive even while I try to remain friendly. These usually turn out so pointless. Glad to see you approve. And no, I obviously won't read past the first sentence if it's aggressively written, so please, guys, don't bother.
And if you want to take that away as "I'm ignoring opinions I don't like", that's okay, too I absolutely don't care. Seriously.

 

[Oeconomist]

@Vofuro, @DANDAN_THE_DANDAN—

The problem would be in getting an abiding understanding amongst users as to where lines were drawn. My instincts or yours aren't those of everyone.

 

[Vofuro]

@Oeconomist
that's a problem with nearly everything, unfortunately. It's actually a problem sometimes with the demographics, too. Especially whether something is actually a shojo/shounen or seinen. In most cases it's clear, in those that are not, there's usually a note added after some small tagging-round of tagging and deleting said tag. You can only categorize and tag media to a certain point after all.

But obviously the tags should be as self-explaining as possible to avoid needless chaos. Which most of these tags are - I mean abuse is not use. The only problem I see is the tag physical abuse, that could be misused.

 

[Probably_wont_log_in_again]

>And no, I obviously won't read past the first sentence if it's aggressively written, so please, guys, don't bother.
>"where the other just wants to shove his opinion down my throat and quite obviously doesn't want to discuss pro/contra arguments, actually read what I wrote and meant and/or is getting rude/aggressive even while I try to remain friendly."

Masterpiece.

Youre quite oblivious to what you are, arent you? Nevermind then, I also am not interested in 'discussions' with disingenuous dullards abusing 'reductio ad -um' escape card. However, given the presented left-right hemisphere cognitive dissonance, you dont get to play virtuous figure of reason.

>I absolutely don't care. Seriously.
You absolutely do, like a typical example of busybody capable only of spreading certain type of ideas. Boring, but it cant be helped - world is full of philosophical zombies craving status. One more doesnt make much difference.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Oeconomist Fair enough. I'm kinda considering a HH style tag labelling where you can just put your mouse over the tag so that you can read its description. MR style where you tap the tags to read a quick description along with the top mangas with said tags below it works just as well. The two can also be implemented at once since they don't compete in position. The description will either be to explain what the less-obvious tags are and/or explain the rules of implementation. So far there's only the theme vs plot point rule nd the comedy exception rule so the list should be fairly short.

@probably_wont_log_in_again What you are trying to say is that the implementation of tags for general users will be exactly the same as implementing trigger warnings in the first place and thus making the point that "trigger warnings are bad" brought up previously valid again, am I wrong?

Honestly why should we bother? It's up to the traumatized's decision to listen or not to said tags, right? Not implementing a system which helps the majority for the sake of a minority is selfish.

Edit: I just looked that fallacy up. How exactly is this reductio ad absurdum? The opposite of not having these tags does not lead to absurd conclusions, it will have no effect. We're trying to add to the tags, not change it.

 

[Vofuro]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
That sounds like a technical solution which the devs should comment/consider if they would want to implement, as it means more change than just adding some comments.
But it certainly doesn't sound like a bad idea, you can even implement short information on all the necessary tags so newbies can learn about the different genres, too.

 

[mustardhobo]

This is so stupid, I love it.

 

[Vofuro]

@mustardhobo
either you laugh or you cry, right? Anyway, want to add some comment on the tags we proposed? I think we've got some good ones.

 

[Yautja]

@Oeconomist
Yea, out right lying and refusing to source claims and going "I said so" is not substantiating.

 

[kenx]

Quoting someone when asked to put more rules on content:

grow a spine

Also, see my profile. Think about it. The tags in this manga are already enough. If you still persist, it's on you.

Also, if you insist on adding TW, I suggest putting an option in the settings to activate it, and put it between Demographic and Genre. If it isn't activated, it won't bother you. If it is, it's on you.

 

[yldDavid]

@Vofuro
You know if it was the me 5 years ago I'd probably laugh and cringe at this idea but now I agree.
There are certain things I simply can't handle mentally anymore.
I still manage, even if I stumble upon it, so I don't expect the people running this site to go out of their way to implement it. If they wish to, I would be for it, if not, that's fine too.

 

[Vofuro]

@yldDavid
I really appreciate your comment, but I should warn you there are some (intolerant) people on this thread that will make fun of you for it. (It's a bit of a nightmare, really)
A list of the current suggested tags is posted on the last page; would you mind looking them up and giving your opinion?


@kenx
glad to see you actually added some content in your edit.
I'll just quote your profile here:

If you don't like something, don't read it. Or at least don't persist in its lecture. A simple concept, yet one that seems lost in many. Even worse if you think it'll suddenly change to fit your tastes (it may change, but for one that does, many won't).

You see, the point is that some additional tags will help avoid or find stuff we want to read. Less people complaining then, too, hopefully

But yeah. There should be the option to deactivate the themes if you don't want to see them. But that's actually another suggestion altogether. This thread is for discussing additional content tags for sensitive material.
Feel free to open such a thread, I'm not opening another suggestion thread anytime soon, I've been having my hands full with this one.