Dex-chan lover
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I mean, the second he's gone Athena nearly died and turned into a hindrance herself, that's kinda hypocrisy in my eyes though
Tsuihou Suru Gawa no Monogatari - Vol. 1 Ch. 3 - Invitation
- Thread starter MangaDex
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It's only hypocrisy if she thinks she's justified. If she believes the same criticisms levied against him should be put against her, then she's being consistent, not hypocritical. Which is the point, she realizes that she's the weakest now and has to change, same as what was happening with him. The difference being that she'll make steady progress, since she isn't a "my op cheat skill does everything" protag, and can train and develop the skills she's supposed to have.
Think of it this way, if you saw a politician saying that people should be tried and jailed if found guilty for X and then they later do X but admit to it, plead guilty, then go to jail without complaint, would you consider them a hypocrite? By definition, no, they wouldn't be. They followed the rules they set.
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Dex-chan lover
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No, what's hypocritical is the fact that she removed him practically being a adventurer, because he nearly died and could die any time (which any adventurer can really) on her own accord without talking to him, or asking how he feels about it, since she's in the same position now he was in, what's the difference ? Why should she be allowed to risk her life, while he isn't? That was my point
Time, time was the difference. This wasn't a new thing. He's been like this for awhile and hasn't made any improvements until his sudden change after leaving.
That's incorrect. The criticisms that I'm reading are from people who did read the party PoV, and are criticizing it on that basis.
From what I see it ends up with a story in which no one is likable. They're all assholes in one way or another.
Let me follow up my earlier point. The main problem here is that the story starts out with a lot of negatives. I come into the comments and find more negatives. I go to novel updates for comments on the WN and it has some of the worst reviews that I've seen and those match the negatives that I see here. So, at this point my expectations for the story are underground. The manga would have to deviate massively from the WN in order to make it readable. Deviating "a bit" isn't going to cut it.The manga has deviated a bit from the novel. So just look forward to how it plays out.
I'd suggest you guys to not read any spoilers or reads the raws as it just ruins the fun for others too.
And again, what I've already seen of the story confirms the problems. (FML kicking Est out of the party in a horrible way, for an idiot-ball reason. Not maintaining a friendship with him outside of the group.)
But lets see what happens next:
- Does Dale explain what happened to Athena?
- Does Athena promptly head off to Est to apologize for the misunderstanding?
- Does Dale also go out of his way to apologize and explain that it's not what it looked like?
- Do they congratulate Est on his new powers?
- Does Athena immediately come clean on her real reason for kicking him from the group?
- Does Athena realize how massively stupid she was to kick Est out in the way she did?
- Does Athena recoil in horror to find that her attempt to protect Est, actually nearly killed him, since he promptly went out to solo a dangerous dungeon in reaction to the way she kicked him?
- Does Athena make clear that she wants to continue their friendship even if Est chooses not to come back?
For skipping, I'm referring to comments made on the chapters in the wn translation. The reviews on novelupdates mostly stick to stuff that's happened in the beginning, which we've covered so far in the manga. What was the criticisms you're referring to?
Yeah, looking at this: Novel Updates on WN. See review by FreddyFeder, Greenriver, WebBookBinge. Those aren't just reacting to Est and their criticisms are aimed at concrete behaviors of the main party.
Checking the 5* reviews, there were two (ankiwi and elbert134) -- but both of those say that their actual rating was 3* -- they just pumped to 5* to compensate for the large number of negative reiviews.
Some of these show a misunderstanding about what's happening. The reason that they gave him for kicking him out was true. It wasn't that they lied, it's that because of the reasons they gave, she is worried about him dying. The party's real reason was what was stated. Her specific reason is the party's plus fear of him dying. She shouldn't be telling him that part either before or after he has a breakthrough.
So, one by one:
1. The one he needs to explain things to is Est. For Athena, he could but if he should or not is debatable.
2. There was no misunderstanding. They knew he wasn't making any progress because he can't use any ability other than enchanting others. If you're talking about Est thinking Dale and her are together, then why? Est and Athena weren't together, it's a one-sided crush he has on her.
3. In the wn, he was more annoyed or disappointed at him for running without talking or confronting him. Manga's like you see here, he chases him but gets nowhere talking to him.
4. Yes, they congratulate him when they meet.
5. Come clean about what? and to do what? They gave the reason, sans the emotional stuff. Adding that back in would just be begging for him to come back, that's why you don't include stuff like that when firing someone.
6. she does regret it but she wasn't wrong. It's a plot convience that he suddenly brokethrough and can enchant himself right after. He's been unable to do anything else since they first started learning magic as kids. The sudden change doesn't mean everything beforehand was a lie.
7. I'm not sure if Est ever even brings up that he almost died but then what do you expect from her? Their way of firing him wasn't overly harsh, it was pretty normal. It's his reaction that's excessive since he loved her.
8. no because that's not the plan. It's suppose to be a clean break. Normally, if you're fired, you aren't supposed to go back and hang out. She made the decision to not stay friends so he doesn't get wrapped back up in it.
2. There was no misunderstanding. They knew he wasn't making any progress because he can't use any ability other than enchanting others. If you're talking about Est thinking Dale and her are together, then why? Est and Athena weren't together, it's a one-sided crush he has on her.
3. In the wn, he was more annoyed or disappointed at him for running without talking or confronting him. Manga's like you see here, he chases him but gets nowhere talking to him.
4. Yes, they congratulate him when they meet.
5. Come clean about what? and to do what? They gave the reason, sans the emotional stuff. Adding that back in would just be begging for him to come back, that's why you don't include stuff like that when firing someone.
6. she does regret it but she wasn't wrong. It's a plot convience that he suddenly brokethrough and can enchant himself right after. He's been unable to do anything else since they first started learning magic as kids. The sudden change doesn't mean everything beforehand was a lie.
7. I'm not sure if Est ever even brings up that he almost died but then what do you expect from her? Their way of firing him wasn't overly harsh, it was pretty normal. It's his reaction that's excessive since he loved her.
8. no because that's not the plan. It's suppose to be a clean break. Normally, if you're fired, you aren't supposed to go back and hang out. She made the decision to not stay friends so he doesn't get wrapped back up in it.
So, one by one:
Freddy's: Still mostly the beginning. There are two things beyond that that they mention, the sympathy extended to others besides Est (which is immediately after the beginning), and Dale's training. This is also a misunderstanding of what the problem is and what's been happening. After Dale joined(he was the last of the initial four), he's been training them on the basics of being adventurers. He later starts training them in combat but that wouldn't change anything for Est. Est can't do the training. He physically cannot because he can't use any of the combat magic or technics he teaches them. He can just enchant others. Even when he can enchant himself, he can just boost his stats with it. It doesn't make him able to do the techniques he teaches. This is also why the others seem to get more sympathy, because while Est hasn't been able to improve since he was a kid, the others improve or change with each lesson/beating(in the case of the dragon girl).
Greenriver: this one is exclusively about him being kicked out.
WebBookBinge: They're preoccupied with them not apologizing for kicking him out. That assumes they were wrong to do so, they weren't. His sudden powerup after doesn't change his state and problems before. Their reaction to Est was good, no begging or false apologies. They congratulate him and leave to sort their own problems out.
Greenriver: this one is exclusively about him being kicked out.
WebBookBinge: They're preoccupied with them not apologizing for kicking him out. That assumes they were wrong to do so, they weren't. His sudden powerup after doesn't change his state and problems before. Their reaction to Est was good, no begging or false apologies. They congratulate him and leave to sort their own problems out.
For the 5* ones, yeah, it's not that great but it has it's own charms. It's just that that seems to get overlooked because of Est getting kicked. There isn't a nice way to fire someone.
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Dex-chan lover
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Yeah, I think I'm dropping this... doesn't seem the worth.
Dex-chan lover
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If the "banisher" party that truly care about Est, they could have helped him training more, hiring more adventurers, or better yet, asking the veterans for advice how to improve him. But nope, they didn't try any of those, just kicked him out without his saying, in a cruel and unjust roundabout way (just speaking the truth, how hard could it be you fucking retard?).
And you know what, I bet they will do all of the above that could have proved that they truly care about Est,make their party the strongest, just like now hiring the dragon girl, like a selfish, hypocritical bitches they are.
And you know what, I bet they will do all of the above that could have proved that they truly care about Est,make their party the strongest, just like now hiring the dragon girl, like a selfish, hypocritical bitches they are.
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can some one plz tell me will this be ntr will the girl fall for daru or daru fall for her (will this be ntr in any kind of way ) plz answer me
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i just read the raw and i can tell uall its not worth it at all . and about the "ntr" short answer is no there is none
the first half is drama ( kicking out ist and adapting to the change part ) the other half is ( just one fight that goes on for the last 10 chaters (this manga is 30ch))
You're misreading it, which is odd because it's pretty obvious. Her fundamental presentation in kicking him out is that she doesn't care about him at all, and is kicking him out because he's useless and is holding them back. Then as soon as he leaves, she reveals that she does care about him and the real reason for kicking him out is that she doesn't want him to die. And it's confirmed again as she wander around town and listens to comments from townfolks.
"All of us have decided to remove you from the party." That was a lie. She was the one who decided it. Elf was fine with that, but Dale voiced an objection. Even if they had both agreed, the impetus for the decision was hers, not the group's.
"You are just holding me back" Another lie. She knows perfectly well that his enchantment magic is important to her performance. Now, she could have argued that his magic, while useful, is like a crutch that she needs to live without, but that's not what she said.
The author's pretense here is to first have her present as a bad guy, then turn around and "show" that she's not a bad guy because she kicked Est because she was concerned for him. But this pretense is absurd and contrived.
Alternatively the author could have presented her as not caring about Est at all -- in which case the reaction after Est left would have been relief all around. ("Finally rid of the deadweight!" "Yeah!" "Whew!") But of course, in that case, they're revealed as assholes, and most of the audience would bail.
That makes no sense to me. It's the reverse. If the truth is "I care about you and don't want you to die," then obviously she should tell him. This is basic friendship. You have a buddy, you go on a joint venture with him, but it doesn't work. In that case, discuss it with him in private, make clear that though the venture isn't working, you don't want to lose them as a friend, and continue on as friends, but not business partners. What freaking lunatic thinks that the best way to handle it is to treat him like shit, claim you don't care about him, and toss him into the street?
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1. Not at all debatable. Dale is the only person understanding of the situation, and it's going to result in a severe misunderstanding by Est which will drastically impact Athena's relationship with Est. Yes, Dale absolutely has to explain it to her.
2.It is a misunderstanding because Est thinks that Dale and Athena are sexually involved when they are not. Even if Athena isn't romantically interested in Est, then she's at least strongly interested in him as a friend. And Est states clearly that he thinks that this is the real reason he was kicked out. So a double misunderstanding, which if there's any friendship, or even basic human decency, should be cleared up.
3. So... He makes no effort. (But you don't think that there's any need to clear things up.)
4. Ok. Good.
5a. Goes back to our disagreement over the kicking.
5b. Your "begging him to come back in" doesn't make sense to me. Such a sequence should be: "We're kicking you because you can't do X." Two days later, "I can do X now." "Great! Can we get you back in the group?" Or maybe: "Great! Now we can drop that new chick who is a complete and utter PITA!"
6. Goes back to our disagreement over kicking.
7a. What would I expect of her? Well if she's a friend, then she should be asking how it happened. Even if she weren't a friend, then ironic curiosity would kick in: "Damn! We were waiting all that time for you to breakthrough! Timing sucks! How the heck did it happen? ... You what? Oh SHIT!!!"
7b. Seems that you have bad experience with people being fired, because not only is that firing method not normal, it's incredibly stupid. There should be plenty of warning (i.e. actual discussion re the problem ahead of time), and the firing should be done as amicably as possible. The dude that you're firing today -- you might have to work with (or even for) sometime in the future.
8. And now you're in the position of "Athena wasn't friendly towards Est." Which is contradicted by the background (childhood friends who formed the party together), and by her clearly shown reaction after firing him. Again, the author could have presented her as not caring about Est ("Goodbye deadweight!"), but he does the opposite in the opening.
2.It is a misunderstanding because Est thinks that Dale and Athena are sexually involved when they are not. Even if Athena isn't romantically interested in Est, then she's at least strongly interested in him as a friend. And Est states clearly that he thinks that this is the real reason he was kicked out. So a double misunderstanding, which if there's any friendship, or even basic human decency, should be cleared up.
3. So... He makes no effort. (But you don't think that there's any need to clear things up.)
4. Ok. Good.
5a. Goes back to our disagreement over the kicking.
5b. Your "begging him to come back in" doesn't make sense to me. Such a sequence should be: "We're kicking you because you can't do X." Two days later, "I can do X now." "Great! Can we get you back in the group?" Or maybe: "Great! Now we can drop that new chick who is a complete and utter PITA!"
6. Goes back to our disagreement over kicking.
7a. What would I expect of her? Well if she's a friend, then she should be asking how it happened. Even if she weren't a friend, then ironic curiosity would kick in: "Damn! We were waiting all that time for you to breakthrough! Timing sucks! How the heck did it happen? ... You what? Oh SHIT!!!"
7b. Seems that you have bad experience with people being fired, because not only is that firing method not normal, it's incredibly stupid. There should be plenty of warning (i.e. actual discussion re the problem ahead of time), and the firing should be done as amicably as possible. The dude that you're firing today -- you might have to work with (or even for) sometime in the future.
8. And now you're in the position of "Athena wasn't friendly towards Est." Which is contradicted by the background (childhood friends who formed the party together), and by her clearly shown reaction after firing him. Again, the author could have presented her as not caring about Est ("Goodbye deadweight!"), but he does the opposite in the opening.
I'll probably stop there since I think our respective points are clear.
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Elf agreed to it under the idea that protecting him wasn't worth it and they could find someone better. They voted and Dale lost the 2-1 so that makes it the party decision, regardless of the source of impetus.
This one's not a lie but a misunderstanding on her part. She's always fought with him, so she doesn't know yet that she isn't that strong yet without him. Everyone else is fine, but, yeah, this wasn't intentional on her part. The end were they get into their childhood dream is her misunderstanding but the statements leading up to there about his role in the party was the actual situation.
Normally, if you are fired, you shouldn't try to maintain relationships there or return. It usually ends with you being escorted out. That's also an exaggeration, he wasn't treated like shit. The reasons they gave were true, he knew they were true as well, he's been worried that they would have this exact conversation for awhile. Which, if you aren't assuming the party is just arbitrarily being assholes, would normally be the case. When things aren't going well and someone's about to get fired or the CEO is about to do a bunch of lay-offs, everyone can tell. The only thing that wasn't true was her saying he's holding her back when they started arguing about their childhood dream. This wasn't that bad but, just like with the reviews, we are still here and still arguing about him getting kicked.
1. It's a matter of Est's crush and him showing up at their place in the middle of the night and getting upset at what he saw while peeking in. If I were to argue for telling her, it would be because this is a problem and they might have to do something if he's going to keep showing up. Either way, his relationship with the group is suppose to be over, you don't have to report on him.
2. But Est isn't all that interested in listening and this is about two relationships, between Dale and Athena and Est and Athena, which don't exist. Est isn't in a position to be getting a report on what relationships she's having or not.
3. He made an effort in this version. Listen, Dale's an old dude, I'm an old dude, this is teenagers going through drama. If the boy would rather run away and be bitter about it rather than hear you out, that's fine.
5a. Because being emotional about it isn't the way to go when firing someone.
5b. The decision was made, you shouldn't fire and bring back people over and over again. Even worse if they are doing well after they leave. This is also part of why you try not to be emotional about it. Don't be wishy-washy about it and make it sound like there's a route back in. In the same token, if they turn it around afterwards, oh well, you didn't win that bet. You do not go back and forth with this kind of thing.
6. I'll just reiterate, Est physically could not do the job. He suddenly could after but he was never able to until then.
7a. And that is none of her business after firing him. I feel like we have a very different understanding what it means to get fired.
7b. Again, this isn't out of the blue. Est knew this was coming. Again, this wasn't overly harsh, just a statement of how he can't do the job. It wouldn't have been personal at all if he didn't bring up the childhood promise. Yes, I've had bad experiences with firings, people with actual, personal, vendettas. If it's a problem enough get rid of me, just state the facts and leave it at that. It's just insulting if they try and say it's for your sake or it's for the best.
8. Not "wasn't friendly" the relationship was cut off. It's "was friends, not now". That statement doesn't mean they weren't friends before but you can end a friendship.
2. But Est isn't all that interested in listening and this is about two relationships, between Dale and Athena and Est and Athena, which don't exist. Est isn't in a position to be getting a report on what relationships she's having or not.
3. He made an effort in this version. Listen, Dale's an old dude, I'm an old dude, this is teenagers going through drama. If the boy would rather run away and be bitter about it rather than hear you out, that's fine.
5a. Because being emotional about it isn't the way to go when firing someone.
5b. The decision was made, you shouldn't fire and bring back people over and over again. Even worse if they are doing well after they leave. This is also part of why you try not to be emotional about it. Don't be wishy-washy about it and make it sound like there's a route back in. In the same token, if they turn it around afterwards, oh well, you didn't win that bet. You do not go back and forth with this kind of thing.
6. I'll just reiterate, Est physically could not do the job. He suddenly could after but he was never able to until then.
7a. And that is none of her business after firing him. I feel like we have a very different understanding what it means to get fired.
7b. Again, this isn't out of the blue. Est knew this was coming. Again, this wasn't overly harsh, just a statement of how he can't do the job. It wouldn't have been personal at all if he didn't bring up the childhood promise. Yes, I've had bad experiences with firings, people with actual, personal, vendettas. If it's a problem enough get rid of me, just state the facts and leave it at that. It's just insulting if they try and say it's for your sake or it's for the best.
8. Not "wasn't friendly" the relationship was cut off. It's "was friends, not now". That statement doesn't mean they weren't friends before but you can end a friendship.
And I will probably still discuss this with people until I either feel like I've gotten a fair trade of engagement for the time I spent reading or I find people having actual discussions about any of the novels I spent more time on. Which I won't because the ones that took the most time and have the most to discuss were korean.
Dex-chan lover
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The story of Star Dust after Est is expelled isn't at all enjoyable. Not is Est's own fate after redeemable. I can see why folks downgraded it. People admitting they overrated it is paying lip service to their own desires rather than acknowledging the market's feedback.
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Dex-chan lover
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I wonder why Frey even wants to be in a party. Maybe it's because she can't earn enough money alone to cover her food bills. So, she joins a party and insists food must be a communal expense. That way she can keep eating like an incarnation of Gluttony, for a little while, until the party realises every single coin of their quest rewards goes toward feeding Frey. She will be kicked out. Not discouraged, she will look for the next victim party.
Double-page supporter
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At the end she is hypocrite and selfish.. at least in e manga the way she broke the party her childhood friend as if he was the scum of the world... a true friend said the true and after a fight they would dunk a beer together... there were some manga like that, the mc was Banished by the party, but after the leader drunk with him since they were friends since kids and give money and other things... and mc understand the reason, the separate way, but still kept as a friend... no drama and fck shit like that... '-'
To me it was only a excuse of hypocrisy and selfish...
in those manga, the banished one didn't get into an argument when they heard they were being kicked out. They accepted the situation and had other goals like training an adventurer territory. Est didn't and was the first to lose his cool. He was also still fixated, to the point of almost killing himself, on continuing a lifestyle and profession that he had not be able to manage without the intervention of plot. This separation was inevitable, and Est did the most to make it on bad terms.
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