User RPG fights - brainstorming and suggestions

[Manko-sensei]

Wow, just wow.

Yeah, everything is wonky and I didn't define everything clear enough.
Thanks for the further insight. Back to the drawingboard.

Given how many systems already exist, it's better to use one and simply adjust small things that don't affect balance to your taste.

 

[BlackGeneral]

Since you've given an example, sit tight as I show all the problems this system faces.​

• Initiative is really important, as it can render useless a defensive strategy the second player has, favouring one-hit characters like @BlackGeneral already did. Simultaneous fighting can lead to both combatants being defeated, and you there's no rulling for that so far.​
• There's also no rulling about how one gets defeated, the number of actions each player can take per turn or the priority of the different actions. This includes Hit Points, taking into account you haven't specified if HP have to be brought to negatives or zero. When this is not specified and, considering that even the first HP costs points, I have to assume 0 HP is still valid to continue fighting (basically, you can choose not to assign any).​
• Since you've added an optimal defensive option such as Shield, anything else is useless. As a cost-effective option, even in a long combat, just use Shield + Magic Bolt.​
• What happens when MP drop to 0? If both combatants reach that number and are not yet defeated, the combat becomes a tie? HP and MP are reset after combat (I assume so?).​

As for the most optimised character for simultaneous turns (what is suggested in the end), here the stats:

• HP: 0/0 (if 1 is the minimum then just remove it from MAP)
• MP: 24
• Skill Slots: 2 (3 points)
• AP: 0
• MAP: 25
• DP: 0
• MDP: 0
• HP Regen: 0
• MP Regen: 0
• Skills: Shield + Magic Bolt (10 points)

This build gives four turns of immunity and 4 magic bolt uses. GG well played?
Edit: I confused one value.

I would take 5Mp regen for infinite shield

 

[a_singular_strike]

Given how many systems already exist, it's better to use one and simply adjust small things that don't affect balance to your taste.

Do you know something that would fit the bill?

 

[a_singular_strike]

I would take 5Mp regen for infinite shield

The min-maxing is real

 

[pandascepter]

this is what a dnd session I imagine looks like.

 

[Manko-sensei]

this is what a dnd session I imagine looks like.

Depends on the GM, in my case I show the door to people that are only interested in powergaming/rules lawying.

I would take 5Mp regen for infinite shield

The funny part is that you don't need to have any magic points to have it, so you can use the same build with strike instead of the magical bolt. The only problem for this is that the system is optimised for short combats, that's worth if you intend to expend 30 points or more on MP (but that decreases the MAP so someone with good magical defence can reduce your damage to 0). But yes, you can have infinite shield.

Do you know something that would fit the bill?

I have for TTRPGs, for strictly slapping each other I don't have any saved. The important part is: do you want some degree of randomness (dices, cards) or entirely numerical values and basically a game of wits?

 

[BlackGeneral]

We should all get infinite shield and achieve world peace

 

[Angry_Panda]

this is what a dnd session I imagine looks like.

Most of the games I get involved in turn into 'how can we derail the DM's plot and go in an entirely different direction instead'.

 

[Manko-sensei]

Most of the games I get involved in turn into 'how can we derail the DM's plot and go in an entirely different direction instead'.

Are you referring to "motorboating the wookiee"? But yes, nowadays the only experiences I hear about are how players actively ignore the game they're playing because they want to impose their own fantasy.

 

[pandascepter]

Most of the games I get involved in turn into 'how can we derail the DM's plot and go in an entirely different direction instead'.

what?

 

[a_singular_strike]

do you want some degree of randomness (dices, cards) or entirely numerical values and basically a game of wits?

I don't really want to add dices/cards because either you have a middleman or the players roll the dice for themselves which doesn't work that well in threads.

Having looked on your previous reply it seems that besides Shield most problem stem from my lack of clear rules and definitions.
While the skills and items were added more for flavor to show how character creation could work, they too could use some work.


As a side note: I don't think it could be that easy to one shot someone on turn 1 (if we ignore the sword he has, it's not balanced). @BlackGeneral and my character as an example, if he attacks me we would calculate 35 modulo 11 = 2; then (2/11) * 35 =~ 6. Granted for some it could be almost their full health but if you aren't a glass canon you should survive this. What doesn't work however is when I attack him because 10 mod 0 is undefined, not optimal , have to change it somehow.

Edit: Made a mistake.

 

[Angry_Panda]

Are you referring to "motorboating the wookiee"? But yes, nowadays the only experiences I hear about are how players actively ignore the game they're playing because they want to impose their own fantasy.

Okay, 'most' might be an exaggeration, but with the groups I tended to play with, there was a certain amount of pushback against the DM railroading the party into the plot. The one guy (now deceased, sadly) whom I still consider the best DM I played with almost never did that, and when he did he was pretty subtle about it. He could also roll with just about anything (except the total party kill referenced in the wookiee incident). One or two other guys who didn't last long as DMs were... not as good at advancing the plot, and suffered for it.

It's not that I don't appreciate the work the DM does building the story arc, it's that ham-fisted advancement of that arc isn't particularly enjoyable. It becomes more about the DM's plot than the play experience, and they're just dragging the players along for the ride at that point.

 

[Manko-sensei]

Okay, 'most' might be an exaggeration, but with the groups I tended to play with, there was a certain amount of pushback against the DM railroading the party into the plot. The one guy (now deceased, sadly) whom I still consider the best DM I played with almost never did that, and when he did he was pretty subtle about it. He could also roll with just about anything (except the total party kill referenced in the wookiee incident). One or two other guys who didn't last long as DMs were... not as good at advancing the plot, and suffered for it.

It's not that I don't appreciate the work the DM does building the story arc, it's that ham-fisted advancement of that arc isn't particularly enjoyable. It becomes more about the DM's plot than the play experience, and they're just dragging the players along for the ride at that point.

Of course railroading is a similar problem, I was simply referring to "I came here with my fetished min/maxed character to slam everything open whimsically". That's why I've always asked my players what they wanted to play or I proposed options with all the possibilities in each adventure/system. Yes, it's a shame they're no longer alive, I'm still in touch with those I've been more comfortable (both GMs and players).

@a_singular_strike about the formulae you're using, I don't recommend using parameters similar to RPGMaker or similar as they're intended to get big numbers and perform many automatised calculations, for a simple system try to work with more intuitive values. No matter the numbers, what matters is being able to create different strategies/builds.

 

[Angry_Panda]

Of course railroading is a similar problem, I was simply referring to "I came here with my fetished min/maxed character to slam everything open whimsically". That's why I've always asked my players what they wanted to play or I proposed options with all the possibilities in each adventure/system.

Yeah, genuine min/maxing is crap and ruins the experience. Kinda wish more DMs understood the 'ask the group what they want to do' concept.

Yes, it's a shame they're no longer alive, I'm still in touch with those I've been more comfortable (both GMs and players).

Sadly, there are a couple guys in that group who have passed - there was no small amount of recreational drug use in that circle and the attendant lack of self-care that comes with it.

 

[panzerkampfwagyu]

Yeah, Session Zero is a rather important thing to do to get everyone on the same page in terms of what they seek.

 

[a_singular_strike]

Back I am, hopefully with a better version. I am asking @Manko-sensei to once again be harsh.

First up, to clarify HP starts at 1, so a KO happens when you have less than 1 HP remaining. All the other Stats start at 0.

Second, we do away with the formulaes and keep it simple -> Damage = Attack - Defense
If no one can defeat the other (=Attack too low to harm each other) a stalemate is reached and you can pat yourself on the back. Naturally, we don't want that, so onto the next one.

Third, character creation was changed to disincentivize this.
Starting points: 40
Points after succesful battle: 4

• HP: 1 Point
• MP: 2 Points
• MP Regen: 3 Points
• Offensive Powers (AP, MAP): 2 Points
• Defensive Power (DP, MDP): 3 Points
• Skill Slots (costs for each slot individually):
  • 1.: 2 Points
  • 2.: 4 Points
  • 3.: 7 Points
  • 4.: 12 Points
  • 5.: 17 Points
  • 6.: 24 Points

Skills (subject to change if needed):

• Offensive:
  • Heavy Strike (AP; 3 MP; 4 Points): +2 to your AP for this attack; -1 to enemy DP for your next attack
  • Backstab (AP; 4 MP; 4 Points): After normal Damage calculations deal 2 Damage to your opponent (ignores DP)
  • Stun (4 MP; 5 Points): Enemy gains [Stunned] and can't act on his round (regenerative/harming effects still happen); can only be used again after 2 turns
  • Shield Bash (AP+DP; 6 MP; 5 Points): Add both current DP and AP for this attack
  • Enchant (AP+MAP; 6 MP; 6 Points): Add both current AP and MAP for this attack
  • Magic Bolt (Magic; MAP; 3 MP; 5 Points): Deal Magic Damage
  • Corrosion (Magic; MAP; 6 MP; 7 Points): Deal Magic Damage against enemy DP; after the attack the enemy receives -2 DP for the next 2 turns
  • Magic Fire (Magic; MAP; 4 MP; 6 Points): After attacking inflict the enemy with [Burning]; at the beginning of his turn he takes 2 Damage (ignores DP/MDP); this effect lasts for 2 turns
• Defensive:
  • Thorn Shield (DP; 4 MP; 4 Points): lasts for 3 turns; +1 to your DP and each time your enemy attacks, he receives 1 Damage (ignores DP/MDP)
  • Magic Barrier (MDP; 3 MP; 3 Points): lasts for 3 turns; add +2 to your MDP and +1 to your MAP
  • Blink (5 MP; 5 Points): Skill only takes effect after your next round; nullifies all damage; can only be used again after 4 turns (cooldown begins after the turn the skill was cast)

Unless specified, all effects do NOT stack, but refresh their duration!
You can have more skills than you have skill slots. The skill slots represent the number of skills you can take into battle. Naturally you can't change these mid-battle. (chosen skills are marked with -))
If anyone has suggestions for changing skills/cost or adding new ones, feel free to do so.

Items (one can be used without ending the turn; unless specified, the item is consumed upon use):

• Healing Potion (3 Points): Heals half of your HP; healed amount is rounded if necessary
• Bottled Grace (automatic; 5 Points): prevents death once and sets your HP at 1; you can't have more than one at a time
• Stun Powder (4 Points): enemy gains [Stunned] and can't act on his round (regenerative/harming effects still happen); can only be used again after 3 turns
• Armoured Bug (4 Points): gain +2 to your DP/MDP for the next 2 rounds; can only be used again after 4 turns

Same thing here, suggestions are welcome.


Before the battle starts players decide with a coin toss who goes first. For the first turn only, the second player gets a temporary bonus defense (half of the other players Attack) added. This should ensure that no one can oneshot others by simply being first.


Again, here an example character:

Elf, Distributor of Coal	AP: 4 MAP: 0 DP: 2 MDP: 1	Skill Slots: 1 -)Heavy Strike	Items: -
Points: 1	HP: 8/8	MP: 3/3	MP Regen: 1

 

[a_singular_strike]

Note:
Forgot to mention that a player has now the following options to choose from when it's their turn:

• Attack (AP): simply attacks
• Skills
• Item
• Rest (1 MP regenerates)

Note 2:
You can't assign more Points to your AP/MAP than to the rest during character. (=No dumping in AP/MAP at the beginning)

 

[BlackGeneral]

 

[Manko-sensei]

@a_singular_strike it's not being mean baka, part of any game design is breaking down mechanics! This time there are not major imbalances but, instead, there's a huge chance of draw by mutual destruction. This time I'll make a scummy character:

• HP: 8
• MP: 4 (8 points)
• AP: 0
• MAP: 6 (12 points)
• DP: 0
• MP: 0
• Skill Slots: 1 (2 points)
• Magic Fire (6 points)
• Stun Powder (4 points)
• MP Regen.: 0​

Explanation: following the current costs, defensive values and skills are too expensive for a 40 point build, which means you can address a one-shot one while having enough HP to resist a character attack with some care for self-preservation. The first round is clue: a 10 base damage character with +2 extra damage is not able to one-shot you by going first, while you can do it automatically by going second. If you go first, you can decide not to attack (if you don't kill by their next turn) and use "Stun Powder" so they can't act on the first round, meaning you go first in the second one and you deal full damage. It doesn't matter if the actions are announced in advance (they remain secret until both player have decided) or the second player chooses their action. Note that you can both use a skill and any number of items, so having "Stun Powder" is clue for deciding the outcome. Backstab is also a valid option as it grants 2 extra damage and you can have an extra AP, but from a maximum of 9 you deal more with Magic Fire (10). If for some reason the other character has high HP/MP values, you have enough time to recover MP by resting and dealing a second attack (and you can use Stun Powder again to counter a long fight build).​

 

[a_singular_strike]

@a_singular_strike it's not being mean baka, part of any game design is breaking down mechanics! This time there are not major imbalances but, instead, there's a huge chance of draw by mutual destruction. This time I'll make a scummy character:

• HP: 8
• MP: 4 (8 points)
• AP: 0
• MAP: 6 (12 points)
• DP: 0
• MP: 0
• Skill Slots: 1 (2 points)
• Magic Fire (6 points)
• Stun Powder (4 points)
• MP Regen.: 0​

Explanation: following the current costs, defensive values and skills are too expensive for a 40 point build, which means you can address a one-shot one while having enough HP to resist a character attack with some care for self-preservation. The first round is clue: a 10 base damage character with +2 extra damage is not able to one-shot you by going first, while you can do it automatically by going second. If you go first, you can decide not to attack (if you don't kill by their next turn) and use "Stun Powder" so they can't act on the first round, meaning you go first in the second one and you deal full damage. It doesn't matter if the actions are announced in advance (they remain secret until both player have decided) or the second player chooses their action. Note that you can both use a skill and any number of items, so having "Stun Powder" is clue for deciding the outcome. Backstab is also a valid option as it grants 2 extra damage and you can have an extra AP, but from a maximum of 9 you deal more with Magic Fire (10). If for some reason the other character has high HP/MP values, you have enough time to recover MP by resting and dealing a second attack (and you can use Stun Powder again to counter a long fight build).​

Wow again
Don't worry Sensei, your posts give valuable insight.

Three things:

1. Would it help if items that inflict the enemy with a harmful effect end the turn (like the Stun Powder here)? This, however, does make them a bit worse than the skill variant, because of their one-time use.
2. Should some skills be made "easier" to obtain at the beginning for increased variety?
3. Because as it stands now the fights only last a short amount of turns, would it help changing the HP Point cost to 2 HP per Point and/or give everyone some starting DP/MDP?