Vinland Saga - Ch. 215 - Thousand Year Voyage Part 24

[JosebaZilarte]

For a manga promoting near-Christian pacifism, Vinland Saga impressively consistently features fairly brutal and naturalistic guro battles. But I don't mind

I would not consider it "guro" because the characters do not enjoy the violence (and sometimes, it seems like they do not even register it). As you say, that level of violence is just... natural in this context. A Viking with an axe (or two) would absolutely cut down people in that way. But that doesn't mean that they can not stop and ask themselves if that is what they actually want to do.

 

[Actual_Dio]

Ah yes... Distilled misery right into my brain... I dont know why I am surprised by it everytime, I know its coming...

 

[Eighty-six]

See, up until now, the violence was very abstract and distant - it was always something other people were engaged with.

His village was ransacked, his family killed, and himself being made a slave. He tried running away multiple times, only to get caught and beaten into submission.

Everything has its own nuances, yes, but “I was forced” in such things is always very manipulative and reeks of shifting the blame to others. In the style of “I didn’t want to kill you during the theft, but you forced me by trying to resist me.”

But they're the ones being thieved from. The proper analogy is "I didn't want to kill you during your theft, but you forced me by trying to kill me."

 

[SuperOniichan]

But Einar was forced. OK, so he did make a decision to fight. But the Linu hes fighting made the decision to all out attack out of hate and a desire for metal. The Linu he killed personally tried to kill him to get his metal spear. Even if Einar had chosen pacifism, they still would have attacked the fortified village. Einar would still have to fight then like everyone else is.

How is he gonna Thorfinn his way out of this? He can't disarm the guy or super dodge because hes just Einar. Einar could have tried to be peaceful, but either he would have been forced to fight or he would be dead.

This is a tragedy. And its not a tragedy of a few people like Einar just not being cool enough pacifists. Its a tragedy of inevitability between these social forces.

But how did Einar get here to begin with? Was this a conflict between two people living peacefully in their homeland? In this conflict there is no one hundred percent right or one hundred percent wrong, but when you come to foreign lands you need to be prepared for the fact that the locals will perceive you with hostility. Even if this is the early Middle Ages and the Indians do not have any states. Although modern morality still condemns the colonization of America.

 

[SuperOniichan]

His village was ransacked, his family killed, and himself being made a slave. He tried running away multiple times, only to get caught and beaten into submission.


But they're the ones being thieved from. The proper analogy is "I didn't want to kill you during your theft, but you forced me by trying to kill me."

You didn't understand the point of the comparison. It was metaphorical, and not a direct description of some situation. And yes, past grievances do not give you the right to be more aggressive in new disputes. Not only is this not logical, it can also become very manipulative in justifying questionable things that have nothing to do with your past problems. Torfin was clearly trying to protect his friends from this, by the way.

I would not consider it "guro" because the characters do not enjoy the violence (and sometimes, it seems like they do not even register it). As you say, that level of violence is just... natural in this context. A Viking with an axe (or two) would absolutely cut down people in that way. But that doesn't mean that they can not stop and ask themselves if that is what they actually want to do.

Characters do not need to enjoy it for it to be called guro. I didn't call it ero guro because the manga uses naturalistic violence without fetishizing it.

 

[talathar]

But how did Einar get here to begin with? Was this a conflict between two people living peacefully in their homeland?

Sure, coming to Vinland was a mistake because they didn't understand its circumstances or population. Its not blameworthy because it was ignorance. Just like they couldn't know they would cause disease.

Thats why (unlike later historical colonial ventures, and possibly unlike reality) its a mutual tragedy. Neither party set out for war and conflict in the first place, but a conflict was inevitable once the nords arrived because of the material and social circumstances, which couldn't be prevented just by personal commitments to pacifism.

 

[brndndss]

the fallout between einar and thorfinn will be really sad

 

[SuperOniichan]

Sure, coming to Vinland was a mistake because they didn't understand its circumstances or population. Its not blameworthy because it was ignorance. Just like they couldn't know they would cause disease.

Thats why (unlike later historical colonial ventures, and possibly unlike reality) its a mutual tragedy. Neither party set out for war and conflict in the first place, but a conflict was inevitable once the nords arrived because of the material and social circumstances, which couldn't be prevented just by personal commitments to pacifism.

Ignorance does not save you from responsibility. Just imagine that someone beats you without knowing that beating people is bad and illegal, would you consider this an excuse? Illness is not the best example here, since violation of established rules and ignorance of things that are not known to many, are two different things.

Violence between communities is always a double tragedy for one reason or another. But in this case, Thorfin's pacifism did not work, because the Vikings did not take into account that differences in culture could go that far. It would be easier for them to reach an agreement if it were another European or at least Asian people, but America for Europeans at that time was almost like another planet. Even after many centuries, Indians and conquistadors will perceive each other as different creatures due to the enormous difference in culture and history.

 

[talathar]

Ignorance does not save you from responsibility. Just imagine that someone beats you without knowing that beating people is bad and illegal, would you consider this an excuse? Illness is not the best example here, since violation of established rules and ignorance of things that are not known to many, are two different things.

Violence between communities is always a double tragedy for one reason or another. But in this case, Thorfin's pacifism did not work, because the Vikings did not take into account that differences in culture could go that far. It would be easier for them to reach an agreement if it were another European or at least Asian people, but America for Europeans at that time was almost like another planet. Even after many centuries, Indians and conquistadors will perceive each other as different creatures due to the enormous difference in culture and history.

How would you not know beating someone hurts someone? You would have to have reduced mental capacity- in which case no, we don't hold them morally responsible. Thats not even slightly comparable to the unforseeable consequences here. Illness isn't an example- its a key actual happening that fed the conflict, that they had no understanding would occur.

The idea that a bunch of colonists taking some good land would be happily resolved without conflict in mainland Europe is ludicrous. Thats why they went to Vinland in the first place.

 

[Eighty-six]

You didn't understand the point of the comparison. It was metaphorical, and not a direct description of some situation.

It's a non-functional metaphor when its essence diametrically contradicts the situation it's being applied to.

And yes, past grievances do not give you the right to be more aggressive in new disputes.

I'm not arguing that. I'm pointing out that they're being aggressed upon in this situation. We're not talking about a thief trying to justify his felony murder-- we're talking about the one being robbed trying to justify his defending his home-- and himself-- by killing the thief.

It's as if you have an aversion to the very phrase "I had no choice" that you're not amenable to the idea that people can in fact force others to take actions they wouldn't have otherwise wanted to (inasmuch as the alternative to taking that action is being killed).

 

[SuperOniichan]

How would you not know beating someone hurts someone? You would have to have reduced mental capacity- in which case no, we don't hold them morally responsible. Thats not even slightly comparable to the unforseeable consequences here. Illness isn't an example- its a key actual happening that fed the conflict, that they had no understanding would occur.

The idea that a bunch of colonists taking some good land would be happily resolved without conflict in mainland Europe is ludicrous. Thats why they went to Vinland in the first place.

You will be surprised, but not all people think the same way, especially when we are talking about different cultures. Of course, we may consider some things obvious or logical, but this does not always seem so from the perspective of other people. If everyone thought the same way, there would be almost no conflict, lmao.

Your answer is a clear example of this, you do not agree or even understand my point of view and we are arguing. At the same time, I did not say that their issue would be guaranteed to be resolved. If you read my comment carefully, you will see that I was talking about what if the people of Vinland were Europeans and could morally understand Thorfin.

 

[Eighty-six]

If you read my comment carefully, you will see that I was talking about what if the people of Vinland were Europeans and could morally understand Thorfin.

They left for Vinland in the first place because the apparent morality of the surrounding Europeans was so hostile to Thorfinn's ideology of pacifism, that they glorified violence.

 

[SuperOniichan]

It's a non-functional metaphor when its essence diametrically contradicts the situation it's being applied to.


I'm not arguing that. I'm pointing out that they're being aggressed upon in this situation. We're not talking about a thief trying to justify his felony murder-- we're talking about the one being robbed trying to justify his defending his home-- and himself-- by killing the thief.

It's as if you have an aversion to the very phrase "I had no choice" that you're not amenable to the idea that people can in fact force others to take actions they wouldn't have otherwise wanted to (inasmuch as the alternative is being killed).

The key problem here is that the mechanism for justifying violence itself is flawed and can trigger very serious consequences for everyone, even if technically your actions made sense. Because the very fact of allowing violence raises the discourse about the permissibility of violence and subsequent manipulations. Thorfin understood this very well and therefore chose the pacifist path, realizing that even violence as a last resort is still dangerous. This is why the Bible taught to turn the other cheek within reason.

 

[talathar]

You will be surprised, but not all people think the same way, especially when we are talking about different cultures. Of course, we may consider some things obvious or logical, but this does not always seem so from the perspective of other people. If everyone thought the same way, there would be almost no conflict, lmao.

Your answer is a clear example of this, you do not agree or even understand my point of view and we are arguing. At the same time, I did not say that their issue would be guaranteed to be resolved. If you read my comment carefully, you will see that I was talking about what if the people of Vinland were Europeans and could morally understand Thorfin.

I look forward to your concrete examples of groups which literally don't understand that giving out a beating hurts someone. I expect this culture to be extinct, but if they genuinely don't know that then no they wouldn't be morally responsible I guess. But... thats not a thing since everyone feels pain so its not a meaningful example. Thats quite different from inventing moral rationalisations that justify the beating- which is not what you said

Thorfinn was keen to apply his philosophy in Europe, where the other people were Europeans and understood him. It was very obvious to Thorfinn it wouldn't work. I agree with Thorfinn. Both sides do, in fact, broadly understand each others circumstances and motives here anyway. But material circumstances drive the conflict regardless, because mutual understanding is not sufficent to resolve these things.

 

[SuperOniichan]

They left for Vinland in the first place because the apparent morality of the surrounding Europeans was so hostile to Thorfinn's ideology of pacifism, that they glorified violence.

And did coming to Vinland, where people with even more distant morals live, really help? They expected to see a kinder version of the inhabitants of Europe, but they received people with morals and a picture of the world completely alien to them.

I look forward to your concrete examples of groups which literally don't understand that giving out a beating hurts someone. I expect this culture to be extinct, but if they genuinely don't know that then no they wouldn't be morally responsible I guess. But... thats not a thing since everyone feels pain so its not a meaningful example. Thats quite different from inventing moral rationalisations that justify the beating- which is not what you said

Thorfinn was keen to apply his philosophy in Europe, where the other people were Europeans and understood him. It was very obvious to Thorfinn it wouldn't work. I agree with Thorfinn. Both sides do, in fact, broadly understand each others circumstances and motives here anyway. But material circumstances drive the conflict regardless, because mutual understanding is not sufficent to resolve these things.

You continue to cling to the letter without understanding the essence that I want to show by example. Ironically, without even realizing that this only further proves my point that morality and worldview are not universal and can differ depending on people. If all people think alike, then why did Thorfin decide to break with his fellow tribesmen who didn't understand him in the first place, lol? If people think alike, then how did we get the problem of pacifists and militarists?

And again, if even the people in his homeland did not understand him, then what could be expected from a completely alien and in no way connected with European culture? Do you really not understand that with such a straightforward understanding of my words, my point becomes even more obvious? Or do you think that if Torfin could not come to an agreement with his neighbors, then completely strangers and new people will easily understand his ideas? That even the very fact of cultural difference will not affect this?

 

[JoeKerr]

The comment section is even sadder than the chapter.

 

[SuperOniichan]

The comment section is even sadder than the chapter.

This reminds me of the discussion about Evil Tanya. While the work attempts to convey the harm of violence or the absurdity of war, people in the comments either seek moral justification for it or perceive the parody of militarism as unironic historical revanchism.

 

[talathar]

And did coming to Vinland, where people with even more distant morals live, really help? They expected to see a kinder version of the inhabitants of Europe, but they received people with morals and a picture of the world completely alien to them.

Has anybody suggested coming to Vinland was a good idea?

You continue to cling to the letter without understanding the essence that I want to show by example. Ironically, without even realizing that this only further proves my point that morality and worldview are not universal and can differ depending on people. If all people think alike, then why did Thorfin decide to break with his fellow tribesmen who didn't understand him in the first place, lol? If people think alike, then how did we get the problem of pacifists and militarists?

And again, if even the people in his homeland did not understand him, then what could be expected from a completely alien and in no way connected with European culture? Do you really not understand that with such a straightforward understanding of my words, my point becomes even more obvious? Or do you think that if Torfin could not come to an agreement with his neighbors, then completely strangers and new people will easily understand his ideas? That even the very fact of cultural difference will not affect this?

So you can't provide an example. "People who genuinelly don't understand beatings hurt" wouldn't be morally responsible, so I'm right. Those people don't exist, so I'm right. Your not being misunderstood; you choose to argue by analogy, use a terrible and nonsensical analogy, then claim that I'm ignoring your real point, when the analogy was the only point you made against genuine ignorance absolving blame.

The point isn't if all people think alike. The point is if ideological thinkers can overcome the material forces which push broader communities into conflict. Generally, they cannot. Cultural similarity and Thorfinns eloquence didn't work in Europe and wasn't going to work here, regardless of cultural difference.

I think Thorfinn did come to an agreement, then they all started dying of disease and wanting metal and decided to kill them. The problem ultimately wasn't a linguistic or cultural barrier; the war started for (apart from the disease, I guess) broadly similar material reasons for which they would have faced attack trying to start farming in Europe.

Thats the tragedy. Thorfinn went across the ocean but human nature followed.

 

[musicfreak12]

I don't get it, did einar just casually kill all three of them or the other 2 just rout aswell?

 

[talathar]

I don't get it, did einar just casually kill all three of them or the other 2 just rout aswell?

They decided to come one at a time, he killed the one that came at him first and the rest routed when the boats landed.