Welcome Back, Alice - Vol. 1 Ch. 5.5 - Afterword

[SuperOniichan]

@LouisTheLuis Dramatize and exaggerate other people's words in order to accuse other people of dramatizing and exaggerating. Classic. You do not care so much about the seriousness of your argumentation that you do not even care how much the maximum exaggeration and simplification of my arguments on your part is noticeable. This scarecrow ploy is so fat I would even think it was intentional trolling, lol.

And yes, please explain to me why, when a cis man wants to live up to the ideal of masculinity, he is humiliated for "toxic masculinity", but when a trans male does the same, it is idealized as "finding his correct gender identity"? Both people identify as men and both want to conform to it. Then why is the former condemned but the latter boasted?

 

[Gem-Bug]

*Walks into comment section, then remembers which series this is* Nope

 

[LouisTheLuis]

@SuperOniichan I did not make an argument though; I was being sarcastic and mocking not only what you said but what the other person said.

And no cis men is blamed for toxic masculinity when he just tries to "live up to the ideal of masculinity" (whatever that is). Toxic masculinity stands for sexist attitudes that are generally associated with men, like mansplaining or catcalling. They are not everything related to men and no one ever pretends it's the case, but go on beating the strawman I guess. No one encourages that kind of behavior in trans men so I don't get what point are you even trying to make. We also do not shame people for being masculine regardless of whether they are trans or not; and we support trans people who stick to their gender roles because, even though we recognize these roles may have their negative consequences, we also recognize trans people are trying their hardest to be accepted and perceived as their gender, and sadly, society will put gender labels on things whether we like it or not. But hey, you seem to live in bizarro world, where "SJW rekt compilations" are the only source of information it seems.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@LouisTheLuis Am I understanding you correctly, you deny that modern society demonizes stereotypes of masculinity, accusing those who adhere to them of machismo and toxic masculinity? And what do you deny the existence of all these articles in the mainstream press about how handsome men or hot chick this or that person became after transiton? Personally, it is not entirely clear to me why when a cis man thinks that developed musculature is a symbol of masculinity, he is accused of gender stereotypes, but when a trans man openly says that he always dreamed of becoming a bodybuilder in order to feel like a real man, this becomes the topic of a vaunted article. Or do you also deny that?

 

[smolbaka]

@SuperOniichan

Have you heard of Rod fleming?


He has interesting videos concerning this very thing. The trans trenders debacle.

https://youtu.be/1H3bMsk5jGg
He seems to have decades worth of experience with this gender stuff.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@smolbaka Unfortunately or fortunately, I have not heard about him before. I grew up on the classical worldview that it is not the right or the left that is evil, but their radical and fanatical versions, so I am far from activists from both sides. My parents hold opposite beliefs, so I've seen both sides and this seems like a false dilemma to me.

 

[ahegaoman]

I knew this mf was an egg

 

[LouisTheLuis]

@SuperOniichan

And what do you deny the existence of all these articles in the mainstream press about how handsome men or hot chick this or that person became after transiton?

What does this have to do with anything? Why do you blame us for sensasionalist journalism doing sensasionalist journalism shit? I heavily dislike and condemn how media tries to talk about trans people in terms of their sexual appeal, similarly how I think some of the obsession with femboys is creepy; and as far as I know, there is no LGBT rights group who supports that.

Personally, it is not entirely clear to me why when a cis man thinks that developed musculature is a symbol of masculinity, he is accused of gender stereotypes

When the fuck does that even happen? Where the fuck are cis men blamed for, if I understand correctly, developing musculature in good faith?

but when a trans man openly says that he always dreamed of becoming a bodybuilder in order to feel like a real man, this becomes the topic of a vaunted article

Saying that you want to be a bodybuilder is totally okay; saying that being muscular is a characteristic of being a man is just wrong, but problematic at worst. Again, I still don't understand why you think we praise trans men when they hypothetically show toxic masculine traits (which we don't). Nor I get why you still keep going with the whole "but you support trans people that adhere to gender stereotypes" when I already explained why we do it.

@smolbaka Hey! I have a video about "trans-trenders" too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvM_pRfuFM

 

[smolbaka]

@SuperOniichan

Im not surprised you haven't.

The trans movement didn't like what he was saying.

And he's been buried and obscured. Banned on twitter too I believe.

He's not radical or disregarding trans identity. I disagree with some of his points.

@LouisTheLuis

I'm inclined to believe someone who actually has experience along with other cultures. than listen to some breadtuber.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@LouisTheLuis

I say this because when I open up to mainstream media or Western sources in my profession (I have connection with teen psychology), I constantly see the demonization of everything that is stereotypically associated with "true masculinity." At the same time, in the same media I constantly see an unambiguous message that transgender transition means becoming a stereotypical handsome man or a stereotypical feminine woman by the standards of the 10s.

I have no problem with trans women and men, it is their choice how to live their life and I should not care. But it seems strange to me why society ignores the continuation of gender stereotypes among trans folks, but at the same time blames cis men and women if they adhere to the same stereotypes about "a man should be strong, a woman should be gentle" and so on. Not to mention the fact that I have a very rich experience of communicating with radical feminists, since in Russia this is the dominant direction of feminist ideology and many of them use this for transphobic agitation, including pointing out that in this way trans women "fetishize women as a stereotypical concept of femininity". So, such double standards are not only inherently offensive and hypocritical, they also indirectly help really transphobic people in their transphobic propaganda.

 

[LouisTheLuis]

@smolbaka Right, better to listen to your typical blanchard obsessed TERFy than to someone making an actual coherent argument.

@SuperOniichan Now I actually want to ask you this question: have you interacted with civil rights activist groups in any way (like LGBT rights groups)? Is your experience just limited to your consumption of media? Because my experience in this topic sounds really different from what you are mentioning. There is, in the large scheme of things, a push towards the destruction of gender roles in the movement. However, it is also understood that not breaking them is also ok, especially when the argument that "it is moral to break the gender roles because if not then it is toxic/bad/whatever" does not stand against scrutiny, nor here, nor in any basic sociology class. It is also understood that society currently adheres to those gender roles, and that thus, a trans person in order to be accepted and perceived as their gender may need to adhere as their gender stereotype. In other words, can a trans woman still dress like a man? Of course! But society will not perceive her as a woman (aka. she may not pass), so she, whether she likes it or not, may adopt the most feminine appearance possible, as dysphoria may hit. We support those who don't adhere to stereotypes, but will not shame those who do because 1. It's their decision and 2. Why would we seek the suffering of someone else for no reason?

And yeah, I have bad experiences with TERFs too, but it seems weird to me that although you mention those same bad experiences, you seem to agree with a lot of their points; because, to be clear, I've only heard arguments similar to yours from either TERFs/radfems, transmedicalists, and even some conservatives.

 

[smolbaka]

@SuperOniichan

I take it you're from russia right?

Our experiences must be notably different. Even if we agree on some points I feel lost on what you argue for.

I just don't think we should be wasting our time on this nonsense. I'm out.

 

[SuperOniichan]

@LouisTheLuis I think the modern trans movement is in many ways phantasmagoric, but I do not support TERF, because I do not deny the right of trans people to exist and do not think that transsexuality itself is something offensive or perverse. As I said, I hate radicalism, but I perfectly understand the difference between an ordinary queer person and a crazy SJW on Twitter.

I was born into a strong left-wing family, so I was raised in a left-friendly environment. Of course, in Russia this is not something unusual, on the contrary, but I have many friends or acquaintances from the communist or left-wing youth groups.

To put it mildly, LGBTQ in Russia is extremely marginalized. Of course, no one will put you in jail for being gay or boyish lesbian on a motorcycle, but you will always be subject to some kind of discrimination, such as frequent refusals in employment, the risk of losing children due to accusations of immoral behavior, having a reputation as a pervert, and so on. For this reason, most LGBTQ organizations in Russia are either very paranoid and communicate only with people of certain political views, or are a bunch of countercultural artlsts in the style of the 60s. I don’t fit either of these two parameters, so I had almost no communication with Russian LGBTQ activism. I would not mind providing any thematic assistance when I graduate, but this answer is unlikely to suit you.

I understand how gender stereotypes work. At the same time, I hate hypocrisy, so I'd rather have people be honest rather than trying to sit on two chairs. For example, my trans male friend never made the transition, but at the same time he never tried to tell me about "male vaginas" and such things.

@smolbaka No problem, I'm basically just killing time myself.

 

[alexthestupidn]

Huh, funny seeing someone growing up within a society whose values mirrored yours. Where i used to grew up, men with low lust are considered "virtuous" , men with high lust are considered perverts. As a result, you would feel bad/guilty for having a high sex drive.

Guess no matter where you are, society will always shun you for being different.

 

[Hermetic_Saint]

@ LouisTheLuis, You sound like you live in an echo chamber. I would suggest trying to keep an open mind at all times.

 

[LouisTheLuis]

@Hermetic_Saint What do you mean by that in this context though? It's not like I'm trying to argue from bad faith.

 

[AverageDudeWithAveragePenis]

@LouisTheLuis

You tried to discredit @SuperOniichan by censoring his name and calling them the evil bigot


That's entirely in bad faith my guy.
No sportsman ship in the slightest.

Really, you might wanna check if you live in an echo chamber.

 

[LouisTheLuis]

@AverageDudeWithAveragePenis I mean, if you consider throwing a bunch of sarcastic comments mocking as arguing I guess you could say so

 

[AverageDudeWithAveragePenis]

@LouisTheLuis

Seemed a little aggressive to me

 

[JonRa]

But that's only an escape that ignores what it's actually to be a woman.

Being wimpy didn't stop him from ending up being so based. What a king!