Welcome Back, Alice - Vol. 6 Ch. 35 - Blood clot

[Grischa]

The dick cutting was clearly addressed at sexualety in general and not gender preference in this chapter so I am confused why we are talking about that.

 

[Kiyohimejess]

Replace Yohei with Kei and I think what I've said would pretty much come true.

Kei crossdresses, Yo doesn't. So I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if people started claiming Kei was trans if he was in a similar situation

Actually, nvm they already are calling him trans and an "egg" even going so far as saying the author is in the closet by his volume ending monologues/notes.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609699886303248389

The discussion here was about Yo, but if you want to talk about Kei instead, all we can say about him is that he isn't straight, and his gender identity is unclear but (correct me if I'm wrong) he said he doesn't feel like a boy or a girl. I don't want to apply a label to the dude but "male" doesnt seem to cover it properly. I'll let you decide how you want to identify him.

As for the translators who so kindly donate their time, so what if they're transwomen, and so what if they identify trans/queer themes in manga about people questioning their gender? Maybe I'm stupid but I don't get this. Crossdressers arent necessarily trans, but trans people exist, and so do trans characters.

 

[gearoi92]

I appreciate that you're using esoteric references and uncommon terminology to elevate this conversation, but I disagree with your interpretation here. The two meanings you refer to in this paragraph are exactly the same kinds of cracking. Demian literally has a chapter entitled "The Bird Fights Its Way Out of the Egg" - so I think it's safe to say they're both talking about eggshells.

However, I agree that in the case of Yohei it isn't about being trans. I think in this context he probably means two things.
1) He broke the skin when cutting.
2) He has "cracked" "the code" or "the barrier" that prevented him from understanding what Kei's rejection of societal obligation about gender roles was about, and clearly it wasn't about cutting off his man meat.

You dont seem to understand what i meant. I still talk about the egg and thats why i referenced Demian, its just not the trans lingo. People already going nuts about him being trans and thats why i said in my first post here that the west corrupted this discourse.

 

[smolbaka]

The discussion here was about Yo, but if you want to talk about Kei instead, all we can say about him is that he isn't straight, and his gender identity is unclear but (correct me if I'm wrong) he said he doesn't feel like a boy or a girl. I don't want to apply a label to the dude but "male" doesnt seem to cover it properly. I'll let you decide how you want to identify him.

As for the translators who so kindly donate their time, so what if they're transwomen, and so what if they identify trans/queer themes in manga about people questioning their gender? Maybe I'm stupid but I don't get this. Crossdressers arent necessarily trans, but trans people exist, and so do trans characters.

One has called people pedophiles, the other makes very questionable translation choices.

My sources:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585793599970725895

Kurisu person who goes by "Skye" now acts like a piss baby when confronted with changes as demonstrated by this thread

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330298246254751755

And here's the other translator just calling people pedophiles with no evidence

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365733088140140546

Both these translators see "trans themes" in literally everything. Calling crossdressers "egg" and wanting senpai wa otokonoko to turn out trans or poly sexual is just disgusting. So excuse me when I single them out.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533991375825403904

 

[Kiyohimejess]

One has called people pedophiles, the other makes very questionable translation choices.

My sources:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585793599970725895

Kurisu person who goes by "Skye" now acts like a piss baby when confronted with changes as demonstrated by this thread

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330298246254751755

And here's the other translator just calling people pedophiles with no evidence

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365733088140140546

Both these translators see "trans themes" in literally everything. Calling crossdressers "egg" and wanting senpai wa otokonoko to turn out trans or poly sexual is just disgusting. So excuse me when I single them out.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533991375825403904

I appreciate you sharing your concerns and I think I understand a little bit better. I don't agree with your take on everything here, but I get the concern. You feel like people are editorializing on content instead of giving faithful translations. As someone who has translated manga (about a crossdresser who isnt trans, fwiw) I feel like that's part of the job but I agree there is a line.

That said, why do you misgender her? Afaik Skye stated her preference for she/her. That seems a little unfair and not entirely necessary. Also there is some straight up transphobia in those threads lol. Kind of scary how much those people hate trans individuals.

Can't we all just enjoy manga about a dude having a panic attack and cutting off his dick and get along?

Edit: a parting thought. People mad about translation inaccuracies should translate manga. Isn't that the best way to bring across what you feel the original intent is?

 

[smolbaka]

Thanks for understanding at least.

It's bad enough official English would do something like this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/boundi...s-people-on-changing-characters-identity/amp/

 

[QueenCrimson]

Here I just wanted to see discussion of the manga I've been so invested in only to see its devolved into screeching about trannies. That made me mald so much that I, a trans person, felt the need to dust off this account I've had for years I nearly forgot about to throw in my two cents. Congrats you guys.

I'm not sure I understand the absolute backlash against any idea that Kei could be trans in any way imagineable. Like sure, they might not be a trans woman, but clearly they're gender deviant in some way. Hell, they've literally said out loud they're neither a boy or a girl and don't conform to any gendered expectations. Personally I feel nonbinary (or exgender or whatever the appropriate Japanese equivalent would be) is the most fitting descriptor for Kei, but even then I think fitting them into a label kind of goes against the whole point of their character.

Is Yo trans? At the moment, no. Could they be in future chapters? I don't know. Neither does anybody else. I mean, Yo saying "I want to escape boyhood and girlhood together" probably hints towards something. But if he is trans it has nothing to do with the attempted dick-cutting, as Yo clearly said he was so revolted by his own sexual desires that he went to such an extreme measure. I don't know why this is being discussed.

I'm disappointed. Here Oshimi has presented us with (what I think) is one of the most masterfully crafted deconstructions of sex, gender, romance, and relationships and yet we're still here doing this same song and dance, trapped in this meaningless back and forth of how this fictional character isn't actually trans, but is actually gender non-conforming (two things which historically have had at least some intersection, by the way) and the eeeevil Western SJWs or woke mob or whatever term is in popular usage have corrupted all discussion of this topic and because trans people don't exist in Japan (spoiler= they do.) This happened with Bridget in Guilty Gear Strive. This happened with Fukaboku. This happened with Lily from Zombieland Saga. This probably happened with countless other things I don't know about. Hell, I know people somehow do this with fucking Hibari Ozora, often touted as The trans anime/manga protagonist. Whenever this happens I always hope that we as a species can move on, but apparently not. And quite frankly, I could not be more disappointed in the types of people who are very keen on fueling this outrage cycle that happens every year. I want to take this manga away from these types like a mother taking a basketball away from her child because he can't stop throwing it at his peers.


Anyways, did you see the kiss at the end? How cute <3

 

[icezone22]

Here I just wanted to see discussion of the manga I've been so invested in only to see its devolved into screeching about trannies. That made me mald so much that I, a trans person, felt the need to dust off this account I've had for years I nearly forgot about to throw in my two cents. Congrats you guys.

I'm not sure I understand the absolute backlash against any idea that Kei could be trans in any way imagineable. Like sure, they might not be a trans woman, but clearly they're gender deviant in some way. Hell, they've literally said out loud they're neither a boy or a girl and don't conform to any gendered expectations. Personally I feel nonbinary (or exgender or whatever the appropriate Japanese equivalent would be) is the most fitting descriptor for Kei, but even then I think fitting them into a label kind of goes against the whole point of their character.

Is Yo trans? At the moment, no. Could they be in future chapters? I don't know. Neither does anybody else. I mean, Yo saying "I want to escape boyhood and girlhood together" probably hints towards something. But if he is trans it has nothing to do with the attempted dick-cutting, as Yo clearly said he was so revolted by his own sexual desires that he went to such an extreme measure. I don't know why this is being discussed.

I'm disappointed. Here Oshimi has presented us with (what I think) is one of the most masterfully crafted deconstructions of sex, gender, romance, and relationships and yet we're still here doing this same song and dance, trapped in this meaningless back and forth of how this fictional character isn't actually trans, but is actually gender non-conforming (two things which historically have had at least some intersection, by the way) and the eeeevil Western SJWs or woke mob or whatever term is in popular usage have corrupted all discussion of this topic and because trans people don't exist in Japan (spoiler= they do.) This happened with Bridget in Guilty Gear Strive. This happened with Fukaboku. This happened with Lily from Zombieland Saga. This probably happened with countless other things I don't know about. Hell, I know people somehow do this with fucking Hibari Ozora, often touted as The trans anime/manga protagonist. Whenever this happens I always hope that we as a species can move on, but apparently not. And quite frankly, I could not be more disappointed in the types of people who are very keen on fueling this outrage cycle that happens every year. I want to take this manga away from these types like a mother taking a basketball away from her child because he can't stop throwing it at his peers.


Anyways, did you see the kiss at the end? How cute <3

People who hate LGBT+ themes in manga and anime tend to feel ostracized in their ''western'' society and uses these mediums as a form of escapism, and believe that the LGBT ''agenda'' is a western conspiracy. So whenever those kinds of themes are discussed they tend to deflect and use whatever excuse they can for why it's not about that. I agree with you though I do not think Kei is trans, but leans more towards being nonbinary and that Yo isn't either trans. I interpreted the ''I want to escape boyhood and girlhood together'' more as him saying that he accepts Kei for whatever they choose to be rather then him talking about his own gender identity.

 

[icezone22]

One has called people pedophiles, the other makes very questionable translation choices.

My sources:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585793599970725895

Kurisu person who goes by "Skye" now acts like a piss baby when confronted with changes as demonstrated by this thread

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330298246254751755

And here's the other translator just calling people pedophiles with no evidence

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365733088140140546

Both these translators see "trans themes" in literally everything. Calling crossdressers "egg" and wanting senpai wa otokonoko to turn out trans or poly sexual is just disgusting. So excuse me when I single them out.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533991375825403904

I really don't get what you're trying to do here, like why does it bother you so much if a small group of people see's certain themes in manga and hope for a certain outcome? One of the good things about any artform is how open to interpretation they can be so I don't really think these people's opinions are invalid just because they may actually be wrong about the themes in wahtever they're reading.

 

[theaceshinigami]

i like it, i just find it sad that themes like these have been corrupted by the progressives in the west.

My guy, Japan is one of the most porn obsessed cultures in the world...

 

[gearoi92]

I really don't get what you're trying to do here, like why does it bother you so much if a small group of people see's certain themes in manga and hope for a certain outcome? One of the good things about any artform is how open to interpretation they can be so I don't really think these people's opinions are invalid just because they may actually be wrong about the themes in wahtever they're reading.

His point is that, if not giving any pushback to people like these, this small group can find influence on a large scale. And this is what exactly happened with far-left progressives. I mean, crunchyrolls subtitles of Onimai took out any mentioning of gendered speech. In an anime where the protagonist has become a girl. The confusion and inclusion of non-binary rhetoric and the transmovement is one of the most destructive impementations to the transmovement itself. And these highly offensive thoughts are being waved around so liberally that transpeople themselves dont even feel safe in the political spectrum that should protect them, not ostracize. This is how not transgender but transTRENDER people were created. And even worse, not many people neither talk nor know about this. But times are changing. And lets hope the subtitles for Onimai, too (lmao, a joke).

 

[saiki47]

I have never read shounen ai or yaoi but this one hits different.
I am liking it so far

 

[icezone22]

His point is that, if not giving any pushback to people like these, this small group can find influence on a large scale. And this is what exactly happened with far-left progressives. I mean, crunchyrolls subtitles of Onimai took out any mentioning of gendered speech. In an anime where the protagonist has become a girl. The confusion and inclusion of non-binary rhetoric and the transmovement is one of the most destructive impementations to the transmovement itself. And these highly offensive thoughts are being waved around so liberally that transpeople themselves dont even feel safe in the political spectrum that should protect them, not ostracize. This is how not transgender but transTRENDER people were created. And even worse, not many people neither talk nor know about this. But times are changing. And lets hope the subtitles for Onimai, too (lmao, a joke).

I'm not familiar with the series you're talking about so I can't comment on it, but nothing of what the person I replied to had linked seemed to have anything to do with that rather it seemed like them hyperobsessing with people on this site/people who do fan translations. The one example the person linked that had the dialogue changed to mentioning transgender didn't seem to be that big of a deal since it translated ''former male'' into something related to trans (they didn't provide any context so I'm not sure what was going on in the page). Acting as if people on the internet who do fantranslations of stuff is somehow harmful to trans people is kind of an over exaggeration since the only people who seemingly get upset about it are non trans people.

 

[QueenCrimson]

The confusion and inclusion of non-binary rhetoric and the transmovement is one of the most destructive impementations to the transmovement itself. And these highly offensive thoughts are being waved around so liberally that transpeople themselves dont even feel safe in the political spectrum that should protect them, not ostracize. This is how not transgender but transTRENDER people were created. And even worse, not many people neither talk nor know about this. But times are changing. And lets hope the subtitles for Onimai, too (lmao, a joke).

I can tell you right away that as a trans person the inclusion of non-binary "rhetoric" isn't anywhere nearly as you've implied. The term "non-binary" might be relatively new, but people who don't identify with neither gender are anything but. Hell, the white in the trans pride flag is literally meant to represent that. I've always understood that being non-binary falls under the "trans umbrella" as its often presented, and there's so much overlap between the experiences of trans men/women and non-binary people that quite frankly I think it's silly to not consider them connected in some way. If there's anything that makes trans people feel ostracized and damages the movement as a whole, its the type of concern trolling this language is engaging with, that again, seems to rear its ugly head around the corner every time there's a gender ambiguous character in a piece of Japanese media...

 

[smolbaka]

His point is that, if not giving any pushback to people like these, this small group can find influence on a large scale. And this is what exactly happened with far-left progressives. I mean, crunchyrolls subtitles of Onimai took out any mentioning of gendered speech. In an anime where the protagonist has become a girl. The confusion and inclusion of non-binary rhetoric and the transmovement is one of the most destructive impementations to the transmovement itself. And these highly offensive thoughts are being waved around so liberally that transpeople themselves dont even feel safe in the political spectrum that should protect them, not ostracize. This is how not transgender but transTRENDER people were created. And even worse, not many people neither talk nor know about this. But times are changing. And lets hope the subtitles for Onimai, too (lmao, a joke).

The west is obsessed with identity politics while Japan's "gender" is more about expression.

I don't get how people here in the west believe different cultures cant view things so differently on the same subject

We can see how western trans/gender ideology activistism is slowly trying to seep its way into Japanese culture & laws.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1635835001408475138

I want to say much more but I think this conversation has derailed this comment section enough already..

I hope yo and kei have a happy BL ending

 

[QueenCrimson]

The west is obsessed with identity politics while Japan's "gender" is more about expression.

I don't get how people here in the west believe different cultures cant view things so differently on the same subject

We can see how western trans/gender ideology activistism is slowly trying to seep its way into Japanese culture & laws.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1635835001408475138

I want to say much more but I think this conversation has derailed this comment section enough already..

I hope yo and kei have a happy BL ending

Glad you decided to get off the topic right as you stopped pretending to be transphobic

 

[gearoi92]

I can tell you right away that as a trans person the inclusion of non-binary "rhetoric" isn't anywhere nearly as you've implied. The term "non-binary" might be relatively new, but people who don't identify with neither gender are anything but. Hell, the white in the trans pride flag is literally meant to represent that. I've always understood that being non-binary falls under the "trans umbrella" as its often presented, and there's so much overlap between the experiences of trans men/women and non-binary people that quite frankly I think it's silly to not consider them connected in some way. If there's anything that makes trans people feel ostracized and damages the movement as a whole, its the type of concern trolling this language is engaging with, that again, seems to rear its ugly head around the corner every time there's a gender ambiguous character in a piece of Japanese media...

Theres enough transpeople experiencing the exact opposite. I woul dare say real transgenders. Not self-id, not non-binary "searching" none on-off switchers. People with legitimate gender dysphoria. And they cant find a place in the community anymore because their experience doesnt add up with those posers anymore. I dont know which side youre on or if youre a transtrender but generally speaking, transtrenders include non-binarys into their mix. Lets see what happens next year. This will start to change, believe me.

 

[QueenCrimson]

Theres enough transpeople experiencing the exact opposite. I woul dare say real transgenders. Not self-id, not non-binary "searching" none on-off switchers. People with legitimate gender dysphoria. And they cant find a place in the community anymore because their experience doesnt add up with those posers anymore. I dont know which side youre on or if youre a transtrender but generally speaking, transtrenders include non-binarys into their mix. Lets see what happens next year. This will start to change, believe me.

To get semantics out of the way, "transgender" isn't a noun and I would like to correct you on that. It's a descriptor, so the correct phrasing is "transgender person" or "trans person", not "a transgender". I don't wanna harp on this too much, but if you truly do care about the trans community as you say you do, I felt it important to point out.

Secondly, I don't buy into this dichotomy between "real transgenders" and "transtrenders", especially when someone who is (presumably) not trans is telling me this. It's such a bizarre divide that quite frankly isn't all that accurate. For one, to imply gender dysphoria is what makes one a "real transgender", a category under which non-binary people don't fall under is a bit odd considering that there are non-binary people with gender dysphoria- I've talked with many such people. Which adds to what I was saying earlier about how trans and non-binary people have a lot of shared experience. I've known non-binary people who underwent a social transition, legally changed their name and wanted to go through surgical procedures as well. I've known non-binary people who have taken hormones. I've known non-binary people who shared all the same fears and anxieties as trans men and women alike- I could go on. The main point I'm trying to get at is with all these shared experiences, I think you'd have to be really hard-pressed to say there's no relation between these.

With all that being said, I think you'd have to be blind or lying to yourself to say there are absolute no trans themes in this manga.

 

[gearoi92]

To get semantics out of the way, "transgender" isn't a noun and I would like to correct you on that. It's a descriptor, so the correct phrasing is "transgender person" or "trans person", not "a transgender". I don't wanna harp on this too much, but if you truly do care about the trans community as you say you do, I felt it important to point out.

Secondly, I don't buy into this dichotomy between "real transgenders" and "transtrenders", especially when someone who is (presumably) not trans is telling me this. It's such a bizarre divide that quite frankly isn't all that accurate. For one, to imply gender dysphoria is what makes one a "real transgender", a category under which non-binary people don't fall under is a bit odd considering that there are non-binary people with gender dysphoria- I've talked with many such people. Which adds to what I was saying earlier about how trans and non-binary people have a lot of shared experience. I've known non-binary people who underwent a social transition, legally changed their name and wanted to go through surgical procedures as well. I've known non-binary people who have taken hormones. I've known non-binary people who shared all the same fears and anxieties as trans men and women alike- I could go on. The main point I'm trying to get at is with all these shared experiences, I think you'd have to be really hard-pressed to say there's no relation between these.

With all that being said, I think you'd have to be blind or lying to yourself to say there are absolute no trans themes in this manga.

sigh...gotcha

 

[smolbaka]

sigh...gotcha

Bro spouted so many words just to say "everyone is valid" which is how we got here today with western trans ideology.

Glad you decided to get off the topic right as you stopped pretending to be transphobic

If that makes me a transphobe so be it.

One final thing, you make JK Rowling out to be some Hitler for trans people when she really just wants sex segregated spaces especially for people as vulnerable as females. It's so sad this is so controversial because you disregard safety for others while wanting to protect your own feelings from getting hurt.

Anyways peace I'm out

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1636286784241025025