Yoku Wakaranai Keredo Isekai ni Tensei Shiteita You Desu - Vol. 16 Ch. 75

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From that, we can look up how much TNT would it take to create an equivalent explosion, and use Kingery-Bulmash to estimate the shockwave.
Only if we can agree that a TNT explosion is the appropriate way to model the effects the initial explosion had on the city. But there's simply no reason to accept that considering that not only did the HEAT round not break apart, it didn't even decouple from the mass of ice. Unlike the steam explosion and flying ice fragments, physics does not require that the initial explosion have any effect at all on the city.

Magic is invoked to produce a shell casing that perfectly reflects the explosive energy until all that is left is heat (and some amount to accelerate the jet through the ice mass). Conservation of energy is not violated.
 
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the initial explosion
The one on page 27? This one is fine, with enough "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit" handwaving, though I am not sure what was it's purpose. I wouldn't even call it an explosion, just as I wouldn't call a jet stream from a HEAT round an explosion.
The one on page 28 has visible shockwave, kinetic effect, and seems to be the one where the evaporation actually happens. It is an explosive reaction, and as such, it is appropriate to model the resulting shockwave using the formulas written for TNT equivalent.
Conservation of energy is not violated.
Except for the part where
Magic is invoked to produce a shell casing that perfectly reflects the explosive energy
 
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Did not have 'Newtonian physics discussion' on my 2024 forum bingo card, but here we are. :salute: :aquadrink:
 
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The one on page 27? This one is fine, with enough "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit" handwaving, though I am not sure what was it's purpose. I wouldn't even call it an explosion, just as I wouldn't call a jet stream from a HEAT round an explosion.
There was a mass of high explosive in the round. It detonated, producing the heat and kinetic energy present in the jet stream. Not gonna argue semantics with you, if you have better words for that process just state them and we'll go with that.
The one on page 28 has visible shockwave, kinetic effect, and seems to be the one where the evaporation actually happens. It is an explosive reaction, and as such, it is appropriate to model the resulting shockwave using the formulas written for TNT equivalent.
Then it is not correct to include the thermal energy that went into phase changing water. We consider only the energy of the rapidly expanding gas that was capable of directing the broken chunks of ice upward.

Except for the part where
Okay, I need to clarify. "From the moment of impact, until forces exerted on the town are negligible, conservation of energy is preserved."

On page 28 I see a steam explosion. Is that not what you are seeing? Not to put words in your mouth but I get the sense that you believe there are two distinct detonation events. There's no way to discuss this if we're looking at the same manga page and seeing two different sequences of events.
 
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Then it is not correct to include the thermal energy that went into phase changing water.
Why not? All of the observed effects - thermal, kinetic and sonic - are the consequence of potential energy stored in the explosive charge being transformed into the respective energies of those effects. In fact, all three effects can be reduce to one kinetic effect of rapidly expanding explosive material imparting kinetic energy to particles it collides with, in this case moleculas of frozen water composing the icicle, and the surrounding air. That's how all explosive reactions produce the effects they do, and there's no separating the effects one from another since they all are one and the same.
On page 28 I see a steam explosion. Is that not what you are seeing?
Steam explosion, as in, the icicle, acting as a sealed container for steam, exploding due to steam pressure exceeding what the icicle can hold? The only way I can see this happening is, the initial blast on page 27 deposited some sort of charge in the middle of the icicle, something sealed off both the entry and the exit holes, the charge started imparting enough energy to - her words - evaporate most of the ice mass, thus converting it into steam, the steam pressure at some point exceeding what the icicle could hold, and so it burst, producing the image on page 28. All happening within a span of like a second, while the icicle is still midair.
Not to put words in your mouth but I get the sense that you believe there are two distinct detonation events.
You said "initial explosion" in one of the previous comments, until then, I completely disregarded what was happening on page 27, because there was not nearly enough energy transfer happening to cause the effects as observed on page 28, so I was judging the events only by what was shown on page 28, which is a single detonation. If we take into consideration the jet on page 27 - and a brief pause lasting maybe a second - then yes, there are two detonation events.
 
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If you draw a plane through the point of reaction (in this case, the epicenter of the explosion), splitting the resulting force vectors into those on one side of the plane (a1...an) and those on the other side of the plane (b1...bm), the sum of vectors a1...an will be the opposite of the sum of vectors b1...bm. Or
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vectors.png

Perfectly elastic or not, you're not getting rid of b1...bm no matter what, and so things will shoot towards the ground as violently as debries from the icicle will fly up.
I will buy the explanation of "it's magic, so the law of conservation of energy does not apply, and reaction forces magically disappear". I will not buy the explanation that it is about efficiency, shaped charges throw as much stuff and with as much force in the direction opposite to that of the jet stream, the only things special about shaped charges is that jet particles don't deviate much from the intended direction.

Before I go on, I just want to point out that in the manga panel, magic is clearly being used to simply perfectly redirect and use all of the energy and associated forces to destroy the ice block, because there's nothing going downwards. That can be the end of the discussion there. But it's an interesting discussion so I'll continue.

Your physics model is correct but I need to clarify something here. I don't disagree with the physics, but the total energy and total forces involved aren't the same thing. I made the mistake of trying to talk about both at the same time which contributed to that confusion. As I see from your vector diagram the issue is not with an understanding of the directional forces involved but with that distinction.

This also depends on what you're referring to with 'backblast' in this case. To me, this is both the heat and kinetic energy of anything not used in the directional explosion/jet stream, while you appear to focus chiefly on the kinetic energy of anything going the other way. That's where the technically incorrect usage of the term for a shaped charge versus a launcher leads to more misunderstanding, I think.

Backblast is not wasted energy, backblast is an unfortunate consequence of the third law. It would be impossible to push the icicle as high up without having an equal amount of energy directed in the opposite direction.

Which brings us back to this. I assumed you were referring to Newton's third law, due to the use of "third law" and "opposite direction", but now I believe you're conflating the Law of Conservation of Energy with Newton's Third law of Conservation of Momentum. You state that an equal amount of energy is directed in the opposite direction when it is only the force that should be the same.

When I refer to the 'waste energy' in this case, it is any energy not used to create the jet stream. This doesn't need to be exactly 50% of energy found in the system or pointed in any particular direction, and varies according to how the shaped charge is designed and operated. The energy not used is essentially that, waste energy in the form of heat, sound and kinetic energy, aka the rest of the explosion. It is indeed wasted energy, because it's desirable that all of this energy be used to create the jet stream's kinetic effect (and associated reaction force). In my original statement, I said she used magic to make this process 100% efficient, which is not currently possible in real life. I mentioned HEAT, which does indeed have very little collateral damage, because reactionary forces are dissipated through the casing and sometimes an attached slug meant for that purpose. The force is the same, but the mass is greater so to use your words, there is less "devastation", as these have lower resultant velocity and kinetic energy and don't go very far. The heat energy is considerable though this has nothing to do with the reaction forces.

This is why when you addressed this:
Magic is invoked to produce a shell casing that perfectly reflects the explosive energy....
Conservation of energy is not violated.

This is correct. "Reflecting" the energy (not momentum), there's no issue with this. The total energy remains the same. It doesn't matter what direction or what form the energy is taking.

Coming back to the ice block, we see magic is handling both the excess energy as well as the reactionary force. As I said at the outset, that could be the end of it. However, since the distinction between forces and energy is clarified, I'd also like to point out that all of the 'waste energy' in the form of heat is contributing to evaporate the ice block. It's still a stupendous amount of energy which doesn't seem to track with her earlier daggers....I think this might be around multi-megaton yield to melt an ice block of that size....but I don't think she is breaking the Law of Conservation of Energy here, and there is less energy in the system overall that what I believe you're thinking.

As for Newton's Third Law, depends on how you want to consider it. We 'break' it in real life by abusing mass, material properties and elasticity but actually total momentum is conserved in all cases. I see the magic as doing the same thing, which is what I was implying in my previous posts.
 
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We 'break' it in real life by abusing mass, material properties and elasticity but actually total momentum is conserved in all cases
When 'break' is paired with 'Newton's Third Law', it has implicit meaning that energy is not conserved. You had to surround 'break' in quote marks so to clarify that you don't really mean it.
but I don't think she is breaking the Law of Conservation of Energy here
She does. Assuming there's no ice block, so the system is Earth - explosive - barrier, if we calculate the sum of momentum of every particle that had energy imparted to it from the explosive reaction the moment right after the explosion and before any of the particles get reflected by the barrier, we'll get a zero vector (or we'll get momentum equal to that of the knife, which is a negligible amount). If we calculate the sum of momentum after every particle has been reflected by the barrier, we'll most certainly get a vector pointing upwards, and with quite a lot of newton-seconds as its scalar value. Total momentum of the system changed, meaning energy was introduced into the system that caused the change.

The barrier imparted kinetic energy onto the particles, so I assume that it was a series of kinetic collisions between the barrier and the particles, which would most likely imply that, whatever the particles the barrier consists of, they have electromagnetic fields which make it possible for collisions to occur, so I assume it is regular massful matter; at least, I know of no other substance that has electromagnetic field but does not have mass. As such, the collisions should have resulted in the barrier obtaining cumulative momentum opposite the total momentum of reflected particles, and that didn't seem to happen. I can think of maybe one model where the momentum in the system is preserved - the barrier is a dome standing on the ground and enveloping the city, so energy transfered to it as a result of the collision getss further channeled to Earth, which has effectively infinite mass, so the change in momentum of individual components will not be as visible.
and there is less energy in the system overall that what I believe you're thinking
We can get a good ballpark estimate of how much energy there is, "evaporated most of the ice" hints us to the values we're operating with here if we can guess the mass of the icicle. Like, a hundred ton maybe? Given that we know heat capacity values of water, and if we assume that "most of the ice" means half, we can get the exact values in joules that went into evaporating the ice mass alone. Not megatons perhaps, but the barrier has a lot of energy to whitstand.
 
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That giant is quite a lot more than 30 meters high...
A "small" tree in a forest on avarage is over 30 meters tall...
 
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bro how strong was that dragon to be commanding this giant? hahahah this subjugation is national level forget about a single city
 
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With every chapter making non-stop references to her chest, I was actually expecting at least one joke to be made about the size of the giant's crotch.
 

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