Zettai ni Hatarakitakunai Dungeon Master ga Damin wo Musaboru made - Vol. 8 Ch. 42 - (Niku Ver) Decisive battle

[XNFEdayo]

Yeah how about waiting to see how it plays out. To avoid spoilers I am not giving a lot of details, but right now you come of as searching for somthing to be critical about and just baselessly assuming. As a LN reader I actually would say this encounter was very well written and helps built the troublesome and chaotic nature of what they are dealing with, a rather well written chaos character. Your also really assuming this is some mob enemy, it might as well be a demon lords heavenly king. Its also by no means invincible, but its also not what it seems at all and they are fighting it in the least effective way, physically.

No, I think about each chapter as it comes no smooth brain tactics here. If the information isn't presented in past chapters or in the present chapter it doesn't matter until that information is presented. Yes and no, I very much am being critical but it's being critical for a reason. Unless I missed a detail foreshadowing this encounter (and if I did THAT is where you should have focused your criticism), it came out of nowhere. Future explanation (as AnotherDuck already mention) doesn't matter. You instead come off as using information you know to try and tell people how they should take things when they do not have that information you're using to base it off of. In layman terms, a prick.

You constantly mention you're a LN reader, yet for whatever reason can't grasp the concept that what I said is based off of what I know. Oh and since all of this is based off what has been presented, it's by definition not a baseless assumption.

Next point to tackle, yes I'm assuming it's a random mob enemy because, and I have to say this yet again, until it's proven otherwise it IS a random mob. A Demon Lord or a Heavenly King are nothing but random mob until it is said they are the Demon Lord or a Heavenly King. This is how logic works. "It's also by no means invincible (rest omitted)" Going. By. What. YOU. Know.
Do you see the common trend here?

 

[hevensdragon]

As a manga reader, I would say this is not well written since it comes out of nowhere. What happens later and what it builds up to doesn't make it better. It's sort of like having the hero use a new ability to solve a problem, and then later explain why that ability could be used. There could be a perfectly good explanation for it, but at the time it still comes off as an asspull.


Um Actually, translations to other languages sometimes do translate names, and that's perfectly fine. There's no absolute "right" way to do it. It's like if a character has the name "Kurisu" it's perfectly normal to translate it to "Chris" rather than to keep the original name, despite it being a proper "untranslatable" name. It's a matter of style.

Personally I think it depends on how the name is conceived and how it's used in the story. There's a difference between a character who's called "Niku", which means "meat", and a character who's called "Meat", which is written as "Niku" in Japanese, even if the surface of it looks exactly the same.

There's usually no absolute distinction. The only one I can think of isn't even Japanese, but Star Trek, and it's Data. He mentioned that, since his name isn't pronounced like the noun spelled the same way.

Well then I will pose a question. What exactly is wrong with it being sudden and surprising? They manage a dungeons they whole point is to be ready for anything to dive in. It also is established that monsters can dive in and are even attracted to them as they are highly suitable living spaces. Should the monster have come said hello, even if it wrecked a nearby town on the way word of that wouldn't have reached before it got to them. Your problem of it was sudden is ridiculously dumb as that was the whole point, it was somthing the were not ready for and didnt expect. If the author hinted at it or talked about them readers would expect the MC to prep for it even if he didnt know, this was done right.
As for the name portion, yes spelling changes do occur, but by your own examples you should notice they are not translating the meaning but to match the pronunciation. Niku itself is a translation, your turning if from Japanese characters to western letters. But your matching the pronunciation not the meaning.

Now lets look at the how Niku was used in the story, yes it was a insult name, but recall that the MC didnt notice or think about it for a while, he just though it was a name, this would be much more glaring in english, vs in Japanese this works as Niku is a name and a word.

Btw, its funny as LN reader to talk about these two topics at once, as your complaining about out of nowhere "black wolf" and the other "black wolf" at once with no realization.

 

[kaosjr]

She's Niku in the LN, I'd prefer you stick to the official translations when possible tbh.

 

[hevensdragon]

No, I think about each chapter as it comes no smooth brain tactics here. If the information isn't presented in past chapters or in the present chapter it doesn't matter until that information is presented. Yes and no, I very much am being critical but it's being critical for a reason. Unless I missed a detail foreshadowing this encounter (and if I did THAT is where you should have focused your criticism), it came out of nowhere. Future explanation (as AnotherDuck already mention) doesn't matter. You instead come off as using information you know to try and tell people how they should take things when they do not have that information you're using to base it off of. In layman terms, a prick.

You constantly mention you're a LN reader, yet for whatever reason can't grasp the concept that what I said is based off of what I know. Oh and since all of this is based off what has been presented, it's by definition not a baseless assumption.

Next point to tackle, yes I'm assuming it's a random mob enemy because, and I have to say this yet again, until it's proven otherwise it IS a random mob. A Demon Lord or a Heavenly King are nothing but random mob until it is said they are the Demon Lord or a Heavenly King. This is how logic works. "It's also by no means invincible (rest omitted)" Going. By. What. YOU. Know.
Do you see the common trend here?

Very well, I will focus more on what you missed. It has been stated that monsters are attracted to dungeon as they are a very good place to live. And over all we know there are strong creature out there. And this is were your criticism fails, why should it not be sudden? If a dragon flies over and sees somthing tasty should it send a message first in the mail, no it will swoop down and take it. Information on surrounding areas is somthing the MC lacks. This caught a sent it liked and rushed in. It has been shown to have intelligence, and is very fast, it would take time for word of a village getting hit to reach the MC, if he even bothered to listen, and that is only if it attacked a village, without that there will be little to no chance of word even going out in the first place. Hell you don't even know if the others heard rumors about this in advance while he slept.
That it isnt doing down easy shows that its not just a normal wolf, that he said its not even in the catalog of monsters, is them telling us its not basic. That you still insist to treat it as a random mob is you ignoring what we have seen and been told.
You are feeling surprised by the enemy, which is 100% the intended reaction. So the writing was perfectly done for you to feel the intended reaction. Yet you come here and complain about oh I was surprised so its bad writing, your not being critical your being a baby.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Well then I will pose a question. What exactly is wrong with it being sudden and surprising?

Look up what story creators have to say about Deus Ex Machina. Random events plots like this are related to that concept. If that happens too often, which mostly means more than once or twice, the audience has a harder time engaging with the plot, since anything can just happen randomly with no build up, tension, or emotional attachment to the events. That bleeds into the rest of the story which makes the rest of it equally unengaging.

Your problem of it was sudden is ridiculously dumb as that was the whole point, it was somthing the were not ready for and didnt expect. If the author hinted at it or talked about them readers would expect the MC to prep for it even if he didnt know, this was done right.

What's ridiculously dumb is expecting the MC to know everything the audience does. That's just failing to understand the difference between narration and characters. Just because the audience knows something doesn't mean the characters know it. Not knowing that much shows how little you know about proper writing, since that's one of the most basic things you learn.

As for the name portion, yes spelling changes do occur, but by your own examples you should notice they are not translating the meaning but to match the pronunciation. Niku itself is a translation, your turning if from Japanese characters to western letters. But your matching the pronunciation not the meaning.

Changing the Japanese characters into English characters while preserving the pronunciation is not translation; it's transliteration. Kurisu and Chris are not pronounced the same. Translating one into the other is exactly that: translation. The thing you said cannot be done with names. And that's regardless of which characters the first is written in.

Now lets look at the how Niku was used in the story, yes it was a insult name, but recall that the MC didnt notice or think about it for a while, he just though it was a name, this would be much more glaring in english, vs in Japanese this works as Niku is a name and a word.

And it doesn't work at all in English if you leave it as "Niku", since that has no meaning in English, the language we're reading. That leaves the entire obvious naming faux pas completely out of the story, since it has to be mentioned by other characters before the audience can get in on the joke. In Japanese that's a very glaring interpretation from the very beginning.

Not translating the name changes the intent of the story, because you're removing a joke and everything else about what the word means and implies.

Btw, its funny as LN reader to talk about these two topics at once, as your complaining about out of nowhere "black wolf" and the other "black wolf" at once with no realization.

Btw, it's funny as an intelligent person to see you write out assumptions and thinking you're so smart.

 

[hevensdragon]

Look up what story creators have to say about Deus Ex Machina. Random events plots like this are related to that concept. If that happens too often, which mostly means more than once or twice, the audience has a harder time engaging with the plot, since anything can just happen randomly with no build up, tension, or emotional attachment to the events. That bleeds into the rest of the story which makes the rest of it equally unengaging.

Ha, you don't even know what deus ex machina means do you, Its not just about sudden events, its about hand of god saves. It has no relevancy at all a monster suddenly showing up. This was within the rules of the world, and we even were told that monster are attracted to dungeons. This was not a contrived or even weird thing, it was somthing that always could happen. This wasn't out of place or jarring which is the entire problem with Deus ex Machina.

"What's ridiculously dumb is expecting the MC to know everything the audience does. That's just failing to understand the difference between narration and characters. Just because the audience knows something doesn't mean the characters know it. Not knowing that much shows how little you know about proper writing, since that's one of the most basic things you learn."

I fully agree its dumb to it, but sadly dumb is pretty common which is why its a good idea for a writer to avoid having to deal with it. Yes we could have seen somthing elsewhere, but it would be jarring and immersion breaking in a story that has so far been focused on the MC's POV.

"Changing the Japanese characters into English characters while preserving the pronunciation is not translation; it's transliteration. Kurisu and Chris are not pronounced the same. Translating one into the other is exactly that: translation. The thing you said cannot be done with names. And that's regardless of which characters the first is written in."

First lets nip this in the bud, do not claim I said things I did not. I never said "cannot be done" I have stated it shouldn't, this do not mean the same thing. Now you are right that I didn't know the word transliteration, but in pointing it out you have just countered your own point as transliterating names was the one exception and examples of "translating" names that was being treated as acceptable. All your examples of "translating" a name previously were transliterating. So ether you called it wrongly intently or you just googled and found the word. Meaning you were ether setting a trap, or you needed to try to google information to back up your point, and forgot that you were saying in the first place, that names are often "translated" and giving examples of transliterating, vs I was saying it was ok to change the character, aka transliterate, but not to fully change it for the meaning, aka translate. You killed your own point not mine.

"And it doesn't work at all in English if you leave it as "Niku", since that has no meaning in English, the language we're reading. That leaves the entire obvious naming faux pas completely out of the story, since it has to be mentioned by other characters before the audience can get in on the joke. In Japanese that's a very glaring interpretation from the very beginning.

Not translating the name changes the intent of the story, because you're removing a joke and everything else about what the word means and implies."

Ever heard of a translator note? Or that it was later brought up and explained as in Japan while they know the word they are not going to instantly be sure it was meant that way, hence why it was later brought up as the MC didn't realize. That explanation time was when the joke was confirmed, and would have given it to the English side just fine.

"Btw, it's funny as an intelligent person to see you write out assumptions and thinking you're so smart"

Have I said any assumptions? Knowing things about a novel qualifies as smart!? Those are news to me. This conversation has nothing to do with smarts, Though I do think myself as above average intelligence wise, but it really isn't relevant. The last bit I included was meant to confuse, as while it is breadcrumbs, you have nothing to piece them together with yet so it would be unreasonable to expect you to, its just funny to see you tie a link between them by sheer coincidence. It seems rather than confusing you took it to be a insult, sorry if that is the case.


lol did you just go back and put strikes on my old comments, because I countered your points, now that is pathetic.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Ha, you don't even know what deus ex machina means do you, Its not just about sudden events, its about hand of god saves.

It's a related concept, which is what I said.

First lets nip this in the bud, do not claim I said things I did not. I never said "cannot be done" I have stated it shouldn't, this do not mean the same thing.

But while the name has meaning it is first and foremost a name, a proper noun, those are not translatable.

Yes. You did say that. "Not translatable" means it cannot be translated.

All your examples of "translating" a name previously were transliterating.

That doesn't actually matter. If it mattered, then the origin of the name would matter, in which case any name that comes from a meaning of a word, would be translated according to the meaning of the word.

What matters is intent. The actual meaning doesn't matter, unless that's the intent. The actual pronunciation doesn't matter, unless that's the intent. The actual spelling doesn't matter, unless that's the intent. But the intent is about what the purpose of the name is (or any other part of the story you're translating), and that has to match the rest of the translation, since otherwise you're not fully translating it.

In many cases you have to make a judgement call on how to translate things, since languages do not work the same, so context is both lost and gained.

Ever heard of a translator note?

Yes. It's a crutch for things you fail to translate properly.

Have I said any assumptions?

Yes. You've assumed knowledge and motivations of people you're arguing with.

lol did you just go back and put strikes on my old comments, because I countered your points, now that is pathetic.

I didn't go back. Those comments were new to me. You can see that by how I hadn't replied after them. Just because you've read your posts doesn't mean I have.

And it wasn't because you countered anything at all, because you didn't. If you have any self awareness, you'd probably know why I did so.

Either way, this isn't leading anywhere.

 

[hevensdragon]

It's a related concept, which is what I said.




Yes. You did say that. "Not translatable" means it cannot be translated.



That doesn't actually matter. If it mattered, then the origin of the name would matter, in which case any name that comes from a meaning of a word, would be translated according to the meaning of the word.

What matters is intent. The actual meaning doesn't matter, unless that's the intent. The actual pronunciation doesn't matter, unless that's the intent. The actual spelling doesn't matter, unless that's the intent. But the intent is about what the purpose of the name is (or any other part of the story you're translating), and that has to match the rest of the translation, since otherwise you're not fully translating it.

In many cases you have to make a judgement call on how to translate things, since languages do not work the same, so context is both lost and gained.



Yes. It's a crutch for things you fail to translate properly.



Yes. You've assumed knowledge and motivations of people you're arguing with.



I didn't go back. Those comments were new to me. You can see that by how I hadn't replied after them. Just because you've read your posts doesn't mean I have.

And it wasn't because you countered anything at all, because you didn't. If you have any self awareness, you'd probably know why I did so.

Either way, this isn't leading anywhere.

Wow what blatant lying, you know there is notifications right? I saw them pop up as I replied to your last comment which is right after one of them, bs you didnt see it. Your clearly just being spiteful and pathetic. To go through a comment section to seek out someone posts and strike them, touch grass.
I do agree that this isnt leading anywhere though, you clearly think yourself perfect and refuse to learn, That you still insist that it was related to dues ex machina after a explanation of what that means and are playing semantics words games with no admitions at all so you have no intention of having a conversation and are to proud to admit faults.
Fact is I could counter you point for point with copy pasts from past comments, points you never refuted, just ignored.

 

[AnotherDuck]

[whining]

Whine more. Just because you can't come up with a good argument is no excuse for making crap up and insulting people.

 

[hevensdragon]

Whine more. Just because you can't come up with a good argument is no excuse for making crap up and insulting people.

^

 

[CinderSquall]

Though I do think myself as above average intelligence wise, but it really isn't relevant.

Y'see kids... this is a red flag, if you see anybody saying they are above average the best way to interact is to not interact at all, that is a massive landmine of ego flexing right there.

 

[CinderSquall]

As much as I respect source readers(whether it be LN, WN or VN) since I'm technically also one for a few series(granted I don't usually bother going to the manga of LNs I read)... but I always find it funny when they dangle this "future information" to manga readers to make themselves look more important or something... which gets more funnier whenever the manga divulges from the source(to varying degrees of success).

And to think that this discourse is because of a "name" that if you actually think about it... isn't really technically a name... it's just Keima assuming it's her actual name because it's what she's been called right? So it's like if a non-involved person hears someone call Melty(from Shield Hero) being called Bitch by everyone and said uninvolved person assuming that is her actual name... that's it, there's no reason to involve the "joke" of Niku having a double meaning or how Niku sounds like an actual name(which honestly it really doesn't... it just does because it's Japanese).

 

[hevensdragon]

Y'see kids... this is a red flag, if you see anybody saying they are above average the best way to interact is to not interact at all, that is a massive landmine of ego flexing right there.

Sure focus on that instead of the points I was making, might as well admit in doing so you have no other counter than to make this about somthing else because your point is baseless.

 

[CinderSquall]

Sure focus on that instead of the points I was making, might as well admit in doing so you have no other counter than to make this about somthing else because your point is baseless.

The funny thing is I agree with some of your claims(the black wolf not being a terrible writing per se).

On the other hand the "name" argument is just stupid and overblown so I don't really need to add onto that.

With all that, it doesn't change my opinion from my original comment.

 

[hevensdragon]

The funny thing is I agree with some of your claims(the black wolf not being a terrible writing per se).

On the other hand the "name" argument is just stupid and overblown so I don't really need to add onto that.

With all that, it doesn't change my opinion from my original comment.

Ah yes the name argument is definitely over the top, I only went into it in the first place as it went far enough that two versions were posted, and a similar debate also occurred in the LN comments sections with both Niku (meat) and two later names Mikan (orange) and Ichigo (strawberry), which let me say it was really weird seeing orange and strawberry treated as normal names, and weirder still was that those to were translated while Niku wasn't for a time. It flipped a few times. Funny thing if the translator decides to translate them fine, I wont prefer it, but will accept it. I do think consistency between the novel, manga and anime should be taken into account, but like you mentioned for you, many who read a LN don't also read the manga, that often seems the case from what I've encountered, though the percentage of manga readers who watch the anime version does seem a lot higher. As generally it seems they at the very least try the anime. The reason the argument went in circles was the points Duck was making or just ignoring, If they just stated their opinion it would be whatever, opinions differ facts don't, and many of there examples contradicted their "facts" (opinions).

But yeah the "black wolf" part is definitely one that kind of requires a bit of hindsight to judge. As is yes sudden, but its not outside the rules the series has established, and the clues to why its taking next to no damage have actually been shown quite blatantly in several pages so far. That one I was frankly shocked to see how much of the comment section was mad at it for being sudden, or that the fight wasn't over.
I think the thing forgotten here is that this manga is released in volumes all at once in Japan, so the pacing of releasing them chapter by chapter really hurts the flow and makes things feel way more dragged out. So many of the comment sections are swamped with complaints about a fight not being over or a sub plot being to dragged out. Some are justified, but seeing so many on complaints on this one definitely made me want to mitigate and defend it a bit, as like I said to you it really is one that you should wait and see a bit before casting judgment.

This part is a added edit. I actually wonder how many missed the first one of the clues of the black wolf do to not being sure if it was just artist design vs actually happening. with works taken from LN to manga you often cant be sure if designs like details of movement are correct or just a artist interpretation of the scene described in the LN.

 

[CinderSquall]

I do think consistency between the novel, manga and anime should be taken into account

More often than not there isn't any "consistency" anime usually gets the "official" translation of things, manga gets the "fan TL" and LN/WN gets the "rough draft TL"(granted only the most dedicated people actually read LNs and WNs hence my aforementioned respect for them). Like the example that I have off the top of my head is with Healer Hero, anime used the name Iblis for a character that has been called Eve Reese(or something, I only remember the Eve part) for the longest time(and until now).

"Names" are the toughest to "translate" for the most part since certain situations sometimes mix up "name" and "title" or the situation with Japanese names having multiple meanings and readings(although this usually becomes a problem for authors that love them wordplays).

I personally prefer using Meat as her "name" since it just sounds jarring(as it should be)... Honestly I'm more curious about MC's name, is it really Kehma? or is it actually Keima?

 

[hevensdragon]

More often than not there isn't any "consistency" anime usually gets the "official" translation of things, manga gets the "fan TL" and LN/WN gets the "rough draft TL"(granted only the most dedicated people actually read LNs and WNs hence my aforementioned respect for them). Like the example that I have off the top of my head is with Healer Hero, anime used the name Iblis for a character that has been called Eve Reese(or something, I only remember the Eve part) for the longest time(and until now).

"Names" are the toughest to "translate" for the most part since certain situations sometimes mix up "name" and "title" or the situation with Japanese names having multiple meanings and readings(although this usually becomes a problem for authors that love them wordplays).

I personally prefer using Meat as her "name" since it just sounds jarring(as it should be)... Honestly I'm more curious about MC's name, is it really Kehma? or is it actually Keima?

Zira is the name of the translator who did most of the LN, He is fluent and doesnt use machine at all, though he is not quick and has some problems, series did get taken while he was inactive. But back on topic he does try to work in puns and word play and does translate them. He has brought up any names with wordplay or meaning, but hasnt even mentioned the MCs, So kind of doubt there is wordplay there, the author is pretty blatant with name wordplay and in general doesn't use much puns or wordplay, so the ether spelling works as they are phonetically right, even if there was a meaning nether of those would preserve it.
As for the jarringness of the name Meat, yeah that is a point as yes it is meant to be a bit, but its far more jarring than intended in english as Meat is just flat a insult, but in japan Niku is a name, and while it might raise a eyebrow, its not really jarring till you see it written as till then your not sure what character and meaning its using. Remember how the MC didn't realize the names meaning, the reason it was so bad wasn't just the word itself, but that it had a specific culture and meaning in the series. And that culture and series meaning matters far more and doent fully mesh with the english meat, warriors it was calling meat shields, and women it meant sex slave. Niku cares about the name a lot, its why she has two major focuses, she strives to be a strong fighter and embody the meat shield meaning, as well as that she sees took being called a bodypillow as filling the other meaning do to limited knowledge. So the in series culture meaning matters a lot with her, but simplifying and making it just blatantly Meat doesnt make you think of the full meaning, vs Niku you think about it a bit more.

 

[CinderSquall]

So the in series culture meaning matters a lot with her, but simplifying and making it just blatantly Meat doesnt make you think of the full meaning, vs Niku you think about it a bit more.

I'd argue that people can easily understand that with the Meat name instead of the Niku, since with the Niku TL would have to consistently put a TL note(just putting it once is honestly not a good option when dealing with double meanings hidden in an untranslated name), which is just time consuming, a hassle and "waste of space".

Also if you are curious official TL actually uses Keima and Meat... soooo there's that.

 

[hevensdragon]

I'd argue that people can easily understand that with the Meat name instead of the Niku, since with the Niku TL would have to consistently put a TL note(just putting it once is honestly not a good option when dealing with double meanings hidden in an untranslated name), which is just time consuming, a hassle and "waste of space".

Also if you are curious official TL actually uses Keima and Meat... soooo there's that.

While interesting that they used Meat, "official" translation just means the group that bought the license, and sadly doesn't mean good quality or that they checked with the author and officially changed the name. They often take heavy liberties to localize. Man have I read some "official" translations that were so bad I went and put the raw into mtl to get context, sadly not a joke or exaggeration they were that bad. One couldn't even settle on the MC's name and it kept getting changed sometimes even mid conversation, then in one spot they left a open <----> for his name were they forgot to go back and add it. While a anime and not LN lets not forget the classics jelly donut line. "official" doesn't mean right.
My counterpoint to you saying that leaving it as Niku would require constant is that while once wouldn't be enough do to readers forgetting do to often waiting quite a while for translations, but that it would only be needed when its relevant, 99% of the time her name is said its just a name, the meaning only matters when they are talking about it. So it wouldn't need many translator notes. Also the times it matters in this series the character actually discuse the meaning of it in detail, so even then it wouldn't need a translator note. Its enough to just have a occasional reminder in this case, as while its not meant to to subtle, its not meant to be such a brick to the face.

 

[CinderSquall]

While interesting that they used Meat, "official" translation just means the group that bought the license, and sadly doesn't mean good quality or that they checked with the author and officially changed the name. They often take heavy liberties to localize. Man have I read some "official" translations that were so bad I went and put the raw into mtl to get context, sadly not a joke or exaggeration they were that bad. One couldn't even settle on the MC's name and it kept getting changed sometimes even mid conversation, then in one spot they left a open <----> for his name were they forgot to go back and add it. While a anime and not LN lets not forget the classics jelly donut line. "official" doesn't mean right.
My counterpoint to you saying that leaving it as Niku would require constant is that while once wouldn't be enough do to readers forgetting do to often waiting quite a while for translations, but that it would only be needed when its relevant, 99% of the time her name is said its just a name, the meaning only matters when they are talking about it. So it wouldn't need many translator notes. Also the times it matters in this series the character actually discuse the meaning of it in detail, so even then it wouldn't need a translator note. Its enough to just have a occasional reminder in this case, as while its not meant to to subtle, its not meant to be such a brick to the face.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, I'll just continue on my merry way with the "Meat Ver." and you can continue with the "Niku Ver." until whenever TL gets tired of it.