How Do You Feel About "NTR"?

[panzerkampfwagyu]

I did consider myself a fan of it for a time, after reading a really satisfying Nisekoi Doujin with it.
It turned out that I just despised Harem protagonists with a passion.
So currently, I treat it as "don't actually particularly like it, but I am not strongly opposed to it either."

 

[wandere]

Patterns? Quite simple:

• Being mainly means being forceful and having a big dick, so even if I'm bad at words everyone will fall instantly for me.
• My partner is my wallet but worthless otherwise, so I need someone to fill that void.
• Oh, my partners/friends managed to kick me out and even the one I loved has turned me away.
• Your good-for-nothing teenager who never confessed has to see their crush going out with someone else.
• This pure character is going to be wrecked by several people who treat them like rubbish.
• Oh no, my lover is secretly being blackmailed and turned into a human pet!

You get the gist, you can add more variations but it's essentially the same story over and over. Some people are just masochists.

Ah no, I think I didn't get it across correctly. When I mean "patterns", I don't mean like NTR tropes, I mean like "what are common things that this medium does that people from the outside looking in seem to hate but those who are actually buying this, actually funding it, seem to just eat up?" One example of that in wn/lns is the "You're kicked out of the party; btw your girlfriend was cheating on you" start, but it could also be something like the "cheat ability", "ability that seems useless but is secretly op", "chance encounter that almost single-handedly leads the protagonist to the top", etc. In particular, my focus is on popular tropes such as the protagonist being cheated on, a betrayal (like being left for dead) leading to the protagonist craving revenge (or if not them purposely seeking it a bad end for whoever betrayed them regardless), that seem less there to be enjoyable for the reader and more to make them attached to the story in a very superficial way; making you angry or frustrated and wanting to keep reading to see exactly when the revenge occurs.
In a weird way, people who heavily dislike ntr (as in actual hentai) do sometimes say things along the lines of "If I was there I would have [commited violent act towards either the stolen partner in the story, the person stealing, or both]", so there is at least some overlap in why people see it in a negative light, although there are other more analytical reasons that I don't believe get brought up in anime circles so...

 

[Angry_Panda]

I feel like there should be more NTR with dragons.

 

[wandere]

I feel like there should be more NTR with dragons.

Stealing a lover from the dragon? The dragon stealing a lover from a human? Stealing the dragon from another dragon? The possibilities are endless

 

[Manko-sensei]

Ah no, I think I didn't get it across correctly. When I mean "patterns", I don't mean like NTR tropes, I mean like "what are common things that this medium does that people from the outside looking in seem to hate but those who are actually buying this, actually funding it, seem to just eat up?" One example of that in wn/lns is the "You're kicked out of the party; btw your girlfriend was cheating on you" start, but it could also be something like the "cheat ability", "ability that seems useless but is secretly op", "chance encounter that almost single-handedly leads the protagonist to the top", etc. In particular, my focus is on popular tropes such as the protagonist being cheated on, a betrayal (like being left for dead) leading to the protagonist craving revenge (or if not them purposely seeking it a bad end for whoever betrayed them regardless), that seem less there to be enjoyable for the reader and more to make them attached to the story in a very superficial way; making you angry or frustrated and wanting to keep reading to see exactly when the revenge occurs.
In a weird way, people who heavily dislike ntr (as in actual hentai) do sometimes say things along the lines of "If I was there I would have [commited violent act towards either the stolen partner in the story, the person stealing, or both]", so there is at least some overlap in why people see it in a negative light, although there are other more analytical reasons that I don't believe get brought up in anime circles so...

You should ask the customers then, from comments I recall there's a good amount that reads whatever following the logic "it's hot" and "what should I care about the guy, are you gay?". Beyond that, there's no point generalising, there are a fair share of intels who read it regularly because of the mistreatment and others who do that as a guilty pleasure. So instead of asking what may be you can simply visit comment sections in different pages and hopefully find a poll about main preferences of the audience.

 

[wandere]

You should ask the customers then, from comments I recall there's a good amount that reads whatever following the logic "it's hot" and "what should I care about the guy, are you gay?". Beyond that, there's no point generalising, there are a fair share of intels who read it regularly because of the mistreatment and others who do that as a guilty pleasure. So instead of asking what may be you can simply visit comment sections in different pages and hopefully find a poll about main preferences of the audience.

I tried that and it felt like there wasn't anyone vocal about enjoying those aspects; although I guess it is important to remember ntr as the point of the story and ntr as a plot device to grab the reader's attention are two different things.
Guess we're either going to the Hentai Mines (Recommended Level: 69) or the Spire of Webnovel (Recommended Level: 20). I suppose I have recently found myself with more time to spend on weird pursuits such as this.

 

[pedronimo]

although I guess it is important to remember ntr as the point of the story and ntr as a plot device to grab the reader's attention are two different things.

i dunno man it just feels kinda weird to get turned on by NTR (atleast when not in the context of something like rent a gf)

i get that a lot of the readers are just there for "hot girl do hot girl things" part, but the mental aspect of still being aroused by that in the context of noncon/cheating just feels.. icky??

anyways fapping to rent a gf ntr is morally acceptable

 

[Mangamoz]

Me hiding my alt account that I use to upload MTL NTR hentai...

I am pretty sure some of you have seen my secret uploads.

 

[wandere]

i dunno man it just feels kinda weird to get turned on by NTR (atleast when not in the context of something like rent a gf)

i get that a lot of the readers are just there for "hot girl do hot girl things" part, but the mental aspect of still being aroused by that in the context of noncon/cheating just feels.. icky??

anyways fapping to rent a gf ntr is morally acceptable

See you have to approach it from like...ok so I'm not sure if you're aware of kink past a surface level. We all have desires, but desires aren't what you are, it's how you interpret and act on those desires. In my personal experience, I would say sometimes you can kind of "tune out" certain things simply because there are aspects you do like; I feel like this is what many people do when some absurd percent of doujin, not to mention porn, feature uncomfortable or unethical aspects. It is easier to tune out in some cases than others, like "The wife is cheating but you never see the husband" vs "The wife is cheating and the husband is forced to watch". One might be leaning into the taboo nature of cheating but especially if it's barely if at all mentioned throughout it can be waved away, while the other is leaning into specifically NTR. I think it's easy to feel like "I enjoyed this so that must be who I am". That's oftentimes not true. You can enjoy certain aspects of something even if you disliked others. Think of the post-nut clarity joke where someone feels guilt after jorking it. There are some scenes that I really, really like, but 99% of things featuring those types of scenes have things I dislike. But I might not consider that in the moment.


To go further beyond that, if someone does in fact like something for in this case NTR, I suppose yeah it's weird as in that's an uncommon kink or fetish to have (at least I think it is, I've never met someone who had a kink for being cucked), I think it's more about how they look at it. Do they see this as just a silly fantasy, or do they legitimately believe that a woman would cheat on, break up with, or any number of ntr tropes (the one where they get the guy to raise the baby is wild) simply due to there being some dude/gal who is really, really good at sex or maybe financially better off (you only really see that outside of straight up porn)? If they are looking at it from that perspective, I think they are kind of icky. If they are looking at it from a "I hate [person] for having a gf when I don't, I wish I could take her from them" and they feel like this fantasy as opposed to I don't know like, actually winning them over emotionally involves sexual assault, I think that's very icky. If someone can say "I like NTR because it makes me feel a certain way, but I don't feel that way in reality", or "I like cheating or infidelity plotlines because they are exciting or I believe [character] deserves someone who treats them better", then I think that's fine. That's healthy. Working through issues doesn't mean surpressing them, it means refining them into a state where you can embrace who you are without guilt and without hurting others (well as a generality).

 

[pedronimo]

Working through issues doesn't mean surpressing them, it means refining them into a state where you can embrace who you are without guilt and without hurting others (well as a generality).

yeah definitely! NTR is just fiction at the end of the day, but i think a lot of my thought process when i was writing my post came from being a non-NTR person, thinking "do i really want to read this and open this (societally taboo) can of worms?"

i guess the average chuck norris on nhentai isn't going to really care about the plot of an NTR doujin if the anime girl on the cover gets him hard. or maybe the plot does get him hard, i'm far from being in a position to kinkshame!

 

[Mangamoz]

yeah definitely! NTR is just fiction at the end of the day, but i think a lot of my thought process when i was writing my post came from being a non-NTR person, thinking "do i really want to read this and open this (societally taboo) can of worms?"

i guess the average chuck norris on nhentai isn't going to really care about the plot of an NTR doujin if the anime girl on the cover gets him hard. or maybe the plot does get him hard, i'm far from being in a position to kinkshame!

OH OH OH!! PICK ME!
I can answer questions from the POV of an actual NTR loving piece of shit that I am.

In my case, I like the type of NTR stories where it is slow burn, drawn out, where it builds up the tension and truly makes you care for the characters.

To TRULY twist the knife as painfully as possible when the NTR downfall comes. Its sort of a sadism thing in my case at least. I want to see the good guys suffer.

And then I go and gaslight people like @Desertking1 and say how horrible he is for liking NTR while I likely have seen a shit ton more of it than him.

 

[Angry_Panda]

OH OH OH!! PICK ME!
I can answer questions from the POV of an actual NTR loving piece of shit that I am.

In my case, I like the type of NTR stories where it is slow burn, drawn out, where it builds up the tension and truly makes you care for the characters.

To TRULY twist the knife as painfully as possible when the NTR downfall comes. Its sort of a sadism thing in my case at least. I want to see the good guys suffer.

And then I go and gaslight people like @Desertking1 and say how horrible he is for liking NTR while I likely have seen a shit ton more of it than him.

Recognizing your faults is the first step to correcting them.

OR DOUBLING DOWN.

 

[wandere]

OH OH OH!! PICK ME!
I can answer questions from the POV of an actual NTR loving piece of shit that I am.

In my case, I like the type of NTR stories where it is slow burn, drawn out, where it builds up the tension and truly makes you care for the characters.

To TRULY twist the knife as painfully as possible when the NTR downfall comes. Its sort of a sadism thing in my case at least. I want to see the good guys suffer.

And then I go and gaslight people like @Desertking1 and say how horrible he is for liking NTR while I likely have seen a shit ton more of it than him.

Ah, I see. I used to read a lot of romance manhwa with female leads, although not as many now. Not all based around revenge but quite a few; I would say the difference between those and NTR as we tend to consider it is the perspective. From the perspective of like your standard female lead who went back in time/read the novel and is now the villainess they have fixed the timeline, served judgement to everyone who deserved it, and are now in a relationship with who they truly deserve. From the perspective of the former fiancee who broke their engagement and has now had their life ruined, they are getting cucked so, so hard and they didn't even see it coming because they never realized the female lead has changed. It's actually kind of two sides of the same coin; the same end point based on a starting point of "The partner who has always been loyal due to [event] begins to act differently", it's sort of just shifting the sympathy and blame around to some degree, with some misogyny/misandry possibly added in as flavoring.


And I find that I enjoy that a lot more because I really hate that stupid fiancee; he sucks and deserves it. Stuff like this written from the male perspective often makes him such a down on his luck guy that I can't help but root for him because I don't want to see him suffer; cmon dude! Fight back! Steal them back! Which just makes it hurt more when you realize that for narrative reasons man's cooked.


So we've heard ntr from the "bull" or sadist's perspective, but where's ntr from the cuck's perspective?
...You know given how we treat you guys I can see why you wouldn't want to talk about it.


I have been wondering if NTR should apply to someone being stolen via financial means rather than sexual means as well, but I don't think so even though that's a common perception (at least in the West). I feel like I've never seen netorare be used as a term in Japanese media outside of someone being dominated and taken sexually, which isn't quite the same as "They have more money than you so I'm leaving you for them, by the way their dick is huge". The part about their dick being huge is just embelishment for the sake of securing the bag. I feel like "There's nothing I can do, they have more money than me" is different from "There's nothing I can do, I can't sex as good". Netorare reminds me more of the very classical, Kama Sutra-esque, time-honored tradition of having sex with someone's wife via means of just being that sexy and alluring.

That's right; I'm saying the tanned blond-haired yankee is the new bard who suspiciously moves from town to town just as the lord starts looking for who fucked his wife.

 

[Mangamoz]

So we've heard ntr from the "bull" or sadist's perspective, but where's ntr from the cuck's perspective?
...You know given how we treat you guys I can see why you wouldn't want to talk about it.

In my case, I have never identified with the cuck, and have never met anyone over on the doujin sites that identifies with them. Everyone I know over there seems to cheer for the cuck's downfall and mind break, me included.

Your comparison to revenge stories is a very fitting one though. Seeing the evil ex-party members who banished the protag get their just deserves does elicit similar feelings as a NTR story.

 

[wandere]

In my case, I have never identified with the cuck, and have never met anyone over on the doujin sites that identifies with them. Everyone I know over there seems to cheer for the cuck's downfall and mind break, me included.

Your comparison to revenge stories is a very fitting one though. Seeing the evil ex-party members who banished the protag get their just deserves does elicit similar feelings as a NTR story.

(Just to note, I use "you" as a general term not as in you specifically)

I'm starting to wonder if this sort of "person who enjoys ntr from the perspective of the person being cucked" is heavily exaggerated. In the first place, "cuck" is one of those loanwords from incel forums, similar to "mogging", "chad", "beta", etc. Not the original meaning, but the way most people use it: Someone who allows their partner to be taken with little to no resistance. Someone who was too weak to defend what was "theirs". It makes sense that the meaning is all over the place because it has lost the original, specific meaning, so now it's more like a feeling. It's an insult, not an identity.


Like how most ntr hentai ends, particularly doujins versus a longer running series; at least from what I've seen usually there is some kind of often absurd breaking point where the person getting cucked does the Napoleon "There's nothing we can do" meme and resigns himself to supporting his not-baby, says "alright I'm going to pretend I didn't see that" and ignores the "I'm sorry husbando he's just so good" moment that either just happened or will be continuing to happen for the rest of his marriage, or abandons his wife to be someone else's new wife or something. And I would have to read some hentai/normal manga that do feature story arcs to better understand this (don't hold your breath I really feel apprehensive about going that far), but when it comes to cuckoldry in a real life sense, it's not about some guy coming in and having sex with your girlfriend without either you or possibly your girlfriend's consent. It's not about blackmail either.


It's about sexual humilation and shaming (and there are 100% a lot of people who are into it who are weird about it), but it's not about permanently losing your partner. I sort of question if, unless you were like on a deep level of unawareness about what it was doing to your mental health, why someone into someone they love having sex with someone in front of them while enjoying it and possibly telling them how much better they feel than him, would be down for sitting back and watching some guy who is barely in the story not notice his partner cheating on them until the last moment. Wouldn't they appreciate more of a "love conquers all" kind of thing? In fact, how many manga straight up end with the protagonist truly being left with nothing, like even if their partner cheats on them and leaves them they don't find someone else, they don't find fulfillment, they just are alone and unhappy?


Maybe we're looking at it from the wrong angle. Maybe the bull/sadists are the majority who consumes ntr and the cucks/masochists, if any, are the minority. At least in a doujin sense. Maybe some of what people consider "NTR" in manga is in fact but the author isn't writing it from the perspective of someone who wants to lose their partner forever, they're writing it from the perspective of someone who values emotional bonds over physical bonds, or enjoys the fantasy of taking the heroine away from "the bull" despite the pleasure the bull could give to the heroine sexually? Perhaps we're collectively too trapped in the incel framework of "Girl taken away so she is tainted forever". Might be a stretch but as I said previously I do not think I have ever personally met someone who said they enjoyed being cucked; Maybe a few people who liked watching people go at it but straight up getting demeaned? No not really, and I have been places where one would think you could run into them.

 

[Mangamoz]

(Just to note, I use "you" as a general term not as in you specifically)

I'm starting to wonder if this sort of "person who enjoys ntr from the perspective of the person being cucked" is heavily exaggerated. In the first place, "cuck" is one of those loanwords from incel forums, similar to "mogging", "chad", "beta", etc. Not the original meaning, but the way most people use it: Someone who allows their partner to be taken with little to no resistance. Someone who was too weak to defend what was "theirs". It makes sense that the meaning is all over the place because it has lost the original, specific meaning, so now it's more like a feeling. It's an insult, not an identity.


Like how most ntr hentai ends, particularly doujins versus a longer running series; at least from what I've seen usually there is some kind of often absurd breaking point where the person getting cucked does the Napoleon "There's nothing we can do" meme and resigns himself to supporting his not-baby, says "alright I'm going to pretend I didn't see that" and ignores the "I'm sorry husbando he's just so good" moment that either just happened or will be continuing to happen for the rest of his marriage, or abandons his wife to be someone else's new wife or something. And I would have to read some hentai/normal manga that do feature story arcs to better understand this (don't hold your breath I really feel apprehensive about going that far), but when it comes to cuckoldry in a real life sense, it's not about some guy coming in and having sex with your girlfriend without either you or possibly your girlfriend's consent. It's not about blackmail either.


It's about sexual humilation and shaming (and there are 100% a lot of people who are into it who are weird about it), but it's not about permanently losing your partner. I sort of question if, unless you were like on a deep level of unawareness about what it was doing to your mental health, why someone into someone they love having sex with someone in front of them while enjoying it and possibly telling them how much better they feel than him, would be down for sitting back and watching some guy who is barely in the story not notice his partner cheating on them until the last moment. Wouldn't they appreciate more of a "love conquers all" kind of thing? In fact, how many manga straight up end with the protagonist truly being left with nothing, like even if their partner cheats on them and leaves them they don't find someone else, they don't find fulfillment, they just are alone and unhappy?


Maybe we're looking at it from the wrong angle. Maybe the bull/sadists are the majority who consumes ntr and the cucks/masochists, if any, are the minority. At least in a doujin sense. Maybe some of what people consider "NTR" in manga is in fact but the author isn't writing it from the perspective of someone who wants to lose their partner forever, they're writing it from the perspective of someone who values emotional bonds over physical bonds, or enjoys the fantasy of taking the heroine away from "the bull" despite the pleasure the bull could give to the heroine sexually? Perhaps we're collectively too trapped in the incel framework of "Girl taken away so she is tainted forever". Might be a stretch but as I said previously I do not think I have ever personally met someone who said they enjoyed being cucked; Maybe a few people who liked watching people go at it but straight up getting demeaned? No not really, and I have been places where one would think you could run into them.

As a representative of the NTR abyss, I assure you we deserve every single insult thrown at us, don't feel bad about calling out our bullshit.

 

[wandere]

As a representative of the NTR abyss, I assure you we deserve every single insult thrown at us, don't feel bad about calling out our bullshit.

I don't feel bad; but honestly I am increasingly feeling more like I want to call out avid NTR haters on their bullshit as opposed to NTR enjoyers. I mean...have I seen someone comment something along the lines of "huehuehue I hope she gets defiled", just out of nowhere where it wouldn't be relevant? Not unless it's a joke account (annoying joke ngl). Have I gotten a Dark Souls-esque message saying "Warning: NTR ahead", looked inside, and found no actual netorare as opposed to sexual assault, characters splitting up after an altercation, having sex with someone else, then getting back together, cheating, having been in a fwb relationship or participating in casual sex with multiple partners prior to developing feelings, or any number of things that don't actually involve ntr? Yes. Far too many times.


I'm getting this feeling that we've been gaslit into hating on anything that depicts a character as anything else but either 1. a gigachad who discards anyone who crosses them and feels little to no emotional pain from being betrayed by someone that they loved or cared about or 2. a self-insert who easily gets the girl/guy no issue, no drama, no significant romantic rivals; in fact they might even make a harem and the entire harem will agree to share. Is it frustrating to see a guy fumble? Is it possibly uncomfortable to hear a woman discuss their sexual experience in a very honest way? Yes. Feeling those things is part of being human. It's almost like a reinforcement loop because if you just keep dropping anything where the narrative doesn't go in the direction you want, maybe you never hear an author out or try to understand what they're cooking. Maybe you never get to the end of a story and see the two leads together and think "You know, maybe that wasn't so bad". Just the same story again and again and again with slight variations and nothing challenging, nothing that makes you feel something or think.


I'll leave calling out some of the tropes pulled in NTR for another day because I think y'all are getting scapegoated.
Edit: So I went back and decided to tackle reading a "story arc" hentai I had recalled from a long time ago that I avoided for 100% having NTR in it. Sincere, true, "catching your girlfriend having sex with someone else and they're enjoying it" NTR. And...I have many negative things I could say about it but it wasn't as scary as I once assumed it would be. It ended on a happy note with the "bull" fully out of the picture and the female lead and "cuck" together. The NTR man is the wandering minstrel, but love conquers all...hm.

 

[Mangamoz]

I don't feel bad; but honestly I am increasingly feeling more like I want to call out avid NTR haters on their bullshit as opposed to NTR enjoyers. I mean...have I seen someone comment something along the lines of "huehuehue I hope she gets defiled", just out of nowhere where it wouldn't be relevant? Not unless it's a joke account (annoying joke ngl). Have I gotten a Dark Souls-esque message saying "Warning: NTR ahead", looked inside, and found no actual netorare as opposed to sexual assault, characters splitting up after an altercation, having sex with someone else, then getting back together, cheating, having been in a fwb relationship or participating in casual sex with multiple partners prior to developing feelings, or any number of things that don't actually involve ntr? Yes. Far too many times.


I'm getting this feeling that we've been gaslit into hating on anything that depicts a character as anything else but either 1. a gigachad who discards anyone who crosses them and feels little to no emotional pain from being betrayed by someone that they loved or cared about or 2. a self-insert who easily gets the girl/guy no issue, no drama, no significant romantic rivals; in fact they might even make a harem and the entire harem will agree to share. Is it frustrating to see a guy fumble? Is it possibly uncomfortable to hear a woman discuss their sexual experience in a very honest way? Yes. Feeling those things is part of being human. It's almost like a reinforcement loop because if you just keep dropping anything where the narrative doesn't go in the direction you want, maybe you never hear an author out or try to understand what they're cooking. Maybe you never get to the end of a story and see the two leads together and think "You know, maybe that wasn't so bad". Just the same story again and again and again with slight variations and nothing challenging, nothing that makes you feel something or think.


I'll leave calling out some of the tropes pulled in NTR for another day because I think y'all are getting scapegoated.

I am a firm believer of "time and place" in manga/anime comments.

I ain't going into a wholesome slice life story to spout off silly stuff like "HOPE SHE GETS NTR'D". That's just cringe and out of touch with the mood of the forum.

I'll do that in the forums of dumb slop pseudo hentai isekai story with naked big tiddy waifus, thats where I think you can get the OK to be a freak.

Not in a fucking wholesome story about a cute cat for example.

 

[wandere]

I am a firm believer of "time and place" in manga/anime comments.

I ain't going into a wholesome slice life story to spout off silly stuff like "HOPE SHE GETS NTR'D". That's just cringe and out of touch with the mood of the forum.

I'll do that in the forums of dumb slop pseudo hentai isekai story with naked big tiddy waifus, thats where I think you can get the OK to be a freak.

Not in a fucking wholesome story about a cute cat for example.

I edited my previous comment a bit because I actually tested my theory a tad bit; maybe the distinction is that hoping for NTR is more of a participatory statement. You're talking about what you want to see from the story, maybe what you like about said character. You're invested. Being anxious about NTR being in a story is less participatory; oftentimes it is asked about before even starting to read, or in reaction to something that might happen later on based on a "vibe". It's kind of like...being invested in the story, but also not being invested in the story? It's like wanting to read more, but only if it ends exactly the way you want. At that point, how much investment in the characters is there versus getting a certain feeling from the story?

 

[Mangamoz]

I edited my previous comment a bit because I actually tested my theory a tad bit; maybe the distinction is that hoping for NTR is more of a participatory statement. You're talking about what you want to see from the story, maybe what you like about said character. You're invested. Being anxious about NTR being in a story is less participatory; oftentimes it is asked about before even starting to read, or in reaction to something that might happen later on based on a "vibe". It's kind of like...being invested in the story, but also not being invested in the story? It's like wanting to read more, but only if it ends exactly the way you want. At that point, how much investment in the characters is there versus getting a certain feeling from the story?

You are correct, at least for me, I prefer to go into a foul story knowing that it is foul.

But when the foul event is sudden and out of tone with the rest of the story I get pissed.

COUGH "Its late but I fell in love with my childhood friend" COUGH.

I do not like getting surprise meat in my vegan meal I was told was safe for vegans to eat.

I will go to the steakhouse for my steak if I wanted to.